[Patrick_Mucci]

diminished the architectural intent and importance of the features meant to be encountered during the course of a round ?

Has the game effectively been reduced to perfecting execution of just four clubs ?

Driver, putter, Wedge, short iron ?

When was the last time that PGA Tour players hit into a fairway bunker with any degree of regularity ?

Have fairway bunkers been so positioned, flanking a DZ, that they've become nothing more than vestigal features ?

Has the equipment and the player created such high launch and land trajectories that fronting and flanking bunkers/ features have lost their ability to influence the players decision making process and strategy in approaching the green ?

If PGA Tour golfers are hitting drives 350 yards and 6-irons 220 yards, what possible influence can architectural features created 20-40-60-80 years ago have ?

And, lastly, other than at WFW and ANGC when was the last time a PGA Tour stop had highly sloped and contoured greens ?

[John_Conley]

yes

[paul cowley]

....five clubs Patrick,

Driver, utility metal, short iron, wedge , putter......

[John Kavanaugh]

Did any of you guys watch the British Open..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Did any of you guys watch the British Open..

JakaB,

I didn't know that British Open courses were considered part of the PGA Tour.[/color]

[Craig Sweet]

350 yard drives? Who?

[James Bennett]

Patrick

a different aspect of the same question....

I recall the 'best players at' awards.  Different topics such as driver, fairway woods, long irons, mid-irons, short-irons, short game, bunker play and putting.  I think some of these awards would either be redundant, or difficult to pick between candidates today.  for example, I expect the best fairway wood player today is Corey Pavin  .

The modern launch angle is another aspect of your question.  Technolgy certainly has made hazard carrying less difficult.

James B

[Glenn Spencer]

Did any of you guys watch the British Open..

JakaB,

I didn't know that British Open courses were considered part of the PGA Tour.[/color]

Why wouldn't they be?

[John Kavanaugh]

They count for offical money so they count officially..The game has changed for the better my friends...long irons are cool again.  If you don't believe me then watch this week.

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

Doesn't anything that increases the carry and reduces the roll of the ball tend to mute architectural features?  The architecture is meaningless while your ball is in the air flying over it, it is only when it strikes the earth that it may interface with the architecture.

The modern ball combined with the modern driver has completely altered the ideal trajectory of a tee shot, so it has a much larger portion of its total distance in the air with much less roll than before.  Its a lot easier to avoid flying into a fairway bunker than it is to avoid rolling into one, especially over land that is not flat.

Here's one for you to ponder.  Was it the American obsession with green grass and lush uniform rough that caused overwatered conditions making the ground game less desireable that led to clubs being designed for more carry (sole weighted irons and fairway woods, hybrids, lob wedges) or did the conditioning follow the changes in equipment over the years?

[Chris Kane]

Patrick, I agree with your premise.  A friend of mine who plays on the Asian Tour has told me that the majority of his practice is devoted to the clubs at each end of his set.  While irons are important, they aren't used enough to be critical on a typical course they play.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Here's one for you to ponder.  Was it the American obsession with green grass and lush uniform rough that caused overwatered conditions making the ground game less desireable that led to clubs being designed for more carry (sole weighted irons and fairway woods, hybrids, lob wedges) or did the conditioning follow the changes in equipment over the years?

Doug I think your observation is spot on (I read it as a rhetorical question) and the relationship between the two is symbiotic.

I recently played Brora with Bill Dow, I was struck by the difference between my Big Bertha Irons and his Hogan Blades.  Playing on the links a topped shot is not the biggest problem, often they can travel just as far. Indeed it’s often an advantage to hit the lower ball.  But which clubs would I want if I had to play over the water features prevalent on the PGA tour?

[David_Madison]

Patrick - yes, without a question. Out of the 32 - 36 swings per round that the typical tour player hits, how many are not with a driving club or wedge/short iron? Five or six perhaps, maybe a couple more if a player hits a 340-yard drive on a 540-yard par-5.

Doug Siebert - - if what you say is true, and I believe that it is, then it would make sense that you need 3-dimensional architectural features to better deal with the modern pros' aerial game. Wouldn't that first mean more trees in the right places, as in the case of Harbor Town, narrowing corridors and forcing more shaped shots, which modern equipment and the modern swing seem geared to combat?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Siebert,

I believed they developed independent of one another.

Green, lush conditions were around 36 years ago.

The hi-tech phenomenon is a more current development based on some simple facts.  One being that mortar or howitzer like trajectory is needed in order to maximize distance, and that it's better to approach a green with a shorter, rather than a longer club.

JakaB,

Who runs the British Open, The PGA Tour or the R&A ?

Would you say that the conditions in the UK parallel the conditions in California, Arizona, Texas and Florda ?

Throw in Illiinois, NY and NJ in the summer as well ?

[Tony Ristola]

Yes.

"Did any of you guys watch the British Open.." JakaB
Links golf in all its glory; the exception that proves the rule. The other exception. Inland courses with a lot of wind. That leaves 99.95467% of the remaining courses as "diminished".

The Open does count towards prize money on the PGA Tour, exemptions, so it is by extension a Tour event. Doesn't most of the Tour's cream play there that week.

[Greg Tallman]

Who runs the British Open, The PGA Tour or the R&A ?

 

Patrick - Who runs The Masters? Who runs the US Open?  Your examples were Augusta and Winged Foot... when have either ever hosted a "PGA Tour Event"?

[Michael Moore]

And, lastly, other than at WFW and ANGC when was the last time a PGA Tour stop had highly sloped and contoured greens ?

Mirasol, Westchester, Quail Hollow, TPC Sawgrass . . .

[Jason Topp]

First of all - who cares about defining what a PGA Tour event is?  Everyone knows what Pat Mucci is talking about and it is an interesting question.

A few thoughts:

1.  It might be illuminating to test his hypothesis against Shotlink data, which I no longer have, to see if players do generally try and play for position or just hit it long and not care about angles.  I let my subscription expire and cannot do so.

2.  Playing the TPC at Sawgrass last winter, I was surprised at how narrow the fairways were - probably around 25 yards on most holes.  I do not see how there would me much marginal value in playing for a particular side of the fairway given that narrow of a space.

3.  Playing in a tournament with a couple of club pros that were friends from childhood last weekend showed me how much the golf swing has changed, probably as a result of technology.  Both of these guys are about 40 and hit the ball in the classic persimmon era swing - a full swing from the inside with a draw that ocassionally is blocked right or hooks too much.  Nether plays a lot any more with a full lesson schedule and other pro shop duties.  

The modern swing generally seems to have a much shorter backswing, a more violent downswing and a straight ball flight.  The flight of the shots of my friends did not look nearly as effective to my eye as some I have seen with a more modern swing.  It was the first time I have realized that technology has changed the method of swinging the club.  To me it appears as dramatic of a change as the transformation from hickory to steel (Bob Jones/Byron Nelson).  

I think it is my first time feeling like I am a part of a dinasaur era.

[Bryan Izatt]

Pat,

Sure it has for them on the courses they play.  Are you implying that the same is true for the rest of us.

For bunkers, it would seem, anecdotally, to me that they still hit them with some regularity, fairway or greenside.  They've been rendered less of a hazard by the way they're maintained (firm) and by the improved techniques of the players, and I suppose the invention of the sand wedge.

As for the aerial game approach to golf, doesn't that go hand-in-hand with the creation of target golf courses and their use on the PGA Tour.  Which came first, lush conditions, as Doug has suggested, target courses with forced carries, or the aerial game based on technology?  Maybe American architects are the source of the aerial game by building target courses well before the Pro V1 era.  If more tour courses were built and maintained like Scottish links courses there would be more of a ground game on the tour.

Some architectural features built in the past are still effective today - the different types of green complexes for instance - and some are not - position of bunkers off the tee, for instance.

But nobody is debating that the Tour plays a different game today than 50 years ago, or that courses unaltered in the last 50 years can't withstand current pros. Perhaps the Tour should only play at modern "championship" golf courses to ensure that the architectural features aren't vestigal.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Doug Siebert,

I believed they developed independent of one another.

Green, lush conditions were around 36 years ago.

The hi-tech phenomenon is a more current development based on some simple facts.  One being that mortar or howitzer like trajectory is needed in order to maximize distance, and that it's better to approach a green with a shorter, rather than a longer club.

JakaB,

Who runs the British Open, The PGA Tour or the R&A ?

Would you say that the conditions in the UK parallel the conditions in California, Arizona, Texas and Florda ?

Throw in Illiinois, NY and NJ in the summer as well ?

Pat,

If you are not scared..Come back Monday and will discuss the role of the long iron in championship golf.  I think they are holding a tournament in Illinois this week that I doubt I will watch but should get some of these guys going.  This is a very recent trend and I can't blame you if you are still a bit behind the curve.

[David_Tepper]

I remember Sam Snead being quoted 40 or 50 years ago saying that the only clubs that really mattered in golf were the driver, wedge & putter. Like Yogi Berra said, "It's deja vu all over again."

[Kirk Gill]

It might be illuminating to test his hypothesis against Shotlink data, which I no longer have, to see if players do generally try and play for position or just hit it long and not care about angles.

I was at the International this last weekend, and posted on another thread an observation I made about the way players were tackling the 10th hole.

If a player drove to the left side of the fairway, and a little short of "driver length," they'd get a flat lie with a look down the lenghth of the green, without having to hit it over a fronting pond and bunker.

But almost without fail, the players were playing down the right side, and just long enough to be on a downslope, resulting in a downhill lie over the aforementioned pond and bunker.

A shot that they were routinely able to make, I must hasten to add...........

[John Kavanaugh]

Of the top 100 shots hit in championship golf history none were hit with a driver or a wedge and few with a putter....Unless you count Palmer at Cherry Hills of course.

[Tom_Egan]

Barney --

You mention the "top 100 shots hit in championship golf history."  Where can we find this list?  

Does it not include the wedge shots hit by Larry Mize (Masters), Bob Tway (PGA), or Tom Watson (US Open)?  

How about the putts of Jack Nicklaus (1980 US Open on #17, ? Year Masters on #16 and 1986 Masters on #17), Nick Price (? Year British Open at Turnberry), Phil Mickelson (2004 Masters on #18) or Hale Irwin (? Year US Open on #18 at Medinah)?

Or maybe the greatest -- Bobby Jones putt on #18 at Winged Foot to tie Al Espinosa whom he later beat in a playoff.      

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

You have a point..If you count misses as top shots the putter is right up there...What is the worst long iron struck of all time.  It has to be one of Normans..

note:  I was talking about the P wedge...not any of those varying degree bastardizations..

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