Davis Love III

[Mike Boehm]

This summer, I have had the chance to play two courses by Davis Love III – the Barefoot Resort course in Myrtle Beach, SC and The Preserve at Jordan Lake in Chapel Hill, NC.  I have enjoyed both courses, particularly the Barefoot-Love course, which I thought had a very interesting set of green complexes, especially for a public course with that level of traffic.  I think they are probably a Doak 6.5 and 4.5, respectively.  I have not seen Love discussed much on the board and was wondering what others opinions of this work are.  Has he done anything that is a “must see”?

Mike

[Forrest Richardson]

Paul Cowley = Davis Love. Paul, are you listening? Chime in. Tell us about these courses and why you aren't higher on the D scale.

[Bill_McBride]

Forrest - there's just something about Myrtle Beach.  Maybe it's all the fried seafood.  

[David_Madison]

I recently played Kinderlou Forest in Valdosta, another course with the Love signature. I was very pleasantly surprised by the number of solid, attractive holes, especially #2 and #12-18.

I haven't played the Preserve in a couple of years, but have a few memories of it. It was pretty attractive and had a few good holes, but I had two big issues with the course. First, it had a number of forced carries that were too long and severe for weaker players. And second, when playing from the back tees and hitting drives in the 280 -300 yard range, I remember most of the par-5's having their second shots being hit from smallish sections of the fairways primarily off downhill lies.

[Wayne_Kozun]

DL III also renovated Angus Glen North just outside of Toronto which will hold the 2007 Canadian Open.  The course was initially thought to be quite weak and I don't know if that has really changed much with the renos.

[Derek_Duncan]

One reason that Love Design's designs aren't frequently discussed here could be that almost all of them are located in the Southeast and many haven't seen them. I'm a big fan of what they do and believe that, given the proclivities of the majority here, there would be more transmission if more GCA participants saw firsthand what they're doing. They've done some really interesting and cool work on sites that aren't very inspiring overall. Their newest product, Sanctuary Cove near Brunswick, GA, features some tremendous retro-inspired green complexes.

[Mike Boehm]

I haven't played the Preserve in a couple of years, but have a few memories of it. It was pretty attractive and had a few good holes, but I had two big issues with the course. First, it had a number of forced carries that were too long and severe for weaker players. And second, when playing from the back tees and hitting drives in the 280 -300 yard range, I remember most of the par-5's having their second shots being hit from smallish sections of the fairways primarily off downhill lies.

David -

I couldn't agree more with your critique of the Preserve.  My father-in-law felt very beat up by the end of the round out there (and he did play the appropriate set of tees for his game).  I think he went through 10-12 golf balls out there.  He found Tobacco Road roomy by comparison the next day and improved his score a dozen shots.

Mike

[Greg Tallman]

One reason that Love Design's designs aren't frequently discussed here could be that almost all of them are located in the Southeast and many haven't seen them.

Team Love will be beginning a course here in Cabo relatively soon. The site is pretty good and will have serious coastal winds to design around as it is located on the Pacific side rather than the Sea of Cortes like the other Cabo courses.
Quite a departure from the southeast.

[paul cowley]

Forrest, my friend...as I have explained here many times, we are very much a team and operate as such.
So let me correct your equation;

Love Golf Design= DL lll+ Mark Love+ P Cowley+ Bob Spence

I am short of time now but I will be happy to respond to specifics later.....or maybe John Mackenzie [another part of the equation ] might join in as well.

[paul cowley]

Greg....thanks for the Cabo post....the site is so good that I am going to start posting pics here soon ...before and after.

We break ground this week....wind will be very much a factor as it always is on a true links site, which this is.

So we plan on narrowing the fairways to maybe 28 or 30 yards with really small pushed up target greens and because of the help on the down wind holes, we thought we might push it out to just under 8,200 yds.................

[A.G._Crockett]

MJBoehm,
I would consider the Barefoot course and Kinderlou Forest pretty close to "must see" status, and they certainly are relative to the courses around them.  Both are just terrific, and both are getting well-deserved recognition in various publications.

Laurel Island Links just north of Jacksonville hasn't been mentioned; very solid, as is Windermere in the northern suburbs of Atlanta.  Windermere is now private, but it is as good a job on as bad a piece of land as you will ever see.

The Love team has also gotten good reviews for their renovation of Forest Oaks in Greensboro, NC, which has been home to the Tour stop there for many years.  I haven't been able to get to Sanctuary Cove yet, but have heard great things and am hoping to see it next spring.

My great regret is that the Love team wasn't really up and running at the point that UNC redid the university course.  I would have loved to have seen what could have been done there by an organization with university ties and that would have really cared intensely about the final product.

[Greg Tallman]

wind will be very much a factor as it always is on a true links site, which this is.

So we plan on narrowing the fairways to maybe 28 or 30 yards with really small pushed up target greens and because of the helping wind on the down wind holes, we thought we might push it out to just under 8,000 yds.................

Sign me up... I'll take that challenge... 90 something has never scared me! There is certainly some nice property over there and you guys are getting first crack to set the standard. Best of luck.  

I'd "love" to tag along on one of your visits if Bob and the guys here in Cabo would not object. Have not seen the exact pice for the golf but the geenral parcel adn greater area would seemingly be a great site.

[paul cowley]

AG...good point on sites....so I thought I might rank some of ours on a modified Doak 'Site' Scale;

Laurel Island      3

Barefoot Landing 2

Retreat             4

Kinderlou Forest  4

Shell Landing      3.5

the Preserve      3

the Patriot         4

Windermere        2

Cabo                 9

[paul cowley]

Greg.....no problem [especially if you know B :)b].

[Greg Tallman]

Señor Gaudet is a good egg although his driving a bit suspect. We talked about the course a couple of nights ago... they are justifiably excited about the project and its golf prospects.

A 9 for the site... nothing like setting the bar high!

I have not had the chance to play Barefoot but have come to know the Young family and they are quite complimentary of the end product... state that your course is the most popular of the four with the guests.  

[paul cowley]

Barefoot seems to keep moving up the 'rankings', which is pleasant enough......those 'GD' raters voted it #1 of the top 50 in Myrtle Beach this year...[Matt Ward abstained].

...which, by the way Forrest, out Doaked Doak on the GD scale........not that ratings mean anything....silly really...

[mikes1160]

Rating the Jordan Preserve ahead of Barefoot is mind-boggling.......the Preserve is one of the most compromised layouts I've ever seen. As for DL designs, I'm amazed that no one has mentioned Anderson Creek, which is far more interesting than the Preserve, Barefoot or Windemere (the only DL tracks I've experienced)

[paul cowley]

Mike....my post was about rating a courses site on a scale similar to the Doak....not the finished product.

...and on this new conceptual scale I would give the Anderson Creek site a solid 4.5........

[TaylorA]

Paul, just curious if you could expand on Windermere a little.

Since it's private now, I don't play it anymore. I thought the property was one of the more severe pieces to try and put a golf course on. Add the housing component and you probably had very little to work with there.

That being said, for its shortcomings, the 10th, 15th and 16th are really great holes. The 10th hole is quirky, but fun. The 15th is just a brute of a golf hole. The 16th is both scenic and strategic.

[J_McKenzie]

TaylorA,

Paul Cowley has been traveling, so I will try to respond to your comments about Windermere.  Your observations are absolutely correct- the site had severe topography that when combined with the needs of the surrounding real estate made it a design challenge.  As a result, the real weakness in the course is probably in the routing.  It doesn't flow all that well due to long cart rides between holes and it certainly isn't walkable.  With that said, we have received many positive comments from golfers about how much they like the way the course is spread out through the surrounding hills, the different views you get, and how enjoyable some of the cart rides are- so you never know.

The strength of the course is in the individual holes themselves, as you mention.  Each hole has strategic merit, is very playable given the nature of the site, offers variety and fits the land fairly well considering the amount of earth that was moved.  I read a great review by Derek Duncan that really summed up what we tried to accomplish at Windermere, knowing the limitations we faced going in.  He stated in so many words that the overall course doesn't quite equal the sum of the individual holes.  I think that is a fair critique and I know the design team is quite satisfied with the work that was done there.  The course was well received when it opened, got a lot of play before it went private, and the developer did very well with the surrounding community.  I would say it was a win-win for everybody.

John

[J_McKenzie]

David and mjboehm,

To respond to your comments about The Preserve, you hit on the one thing we were most concerned about with this course- the number of forced carries.  Unfortunately, this was something we couldn't do anything about due to the incredible environmental restrictions that were placed on this project.  I believe this is probably the toughest course, environmentally speaking, that we've ever had to build- including several that we have built in coastal areas.  To try to offset some of the forced carries, we did provide ample room in the landing areas and the bunker strategy is fairly conservative.  There is a good mix of holes on the course and I understand that the course receives a lot of play, which is always a good sign.  I'm glad to hear that you both have played The Preserve and we always appreciate any feedback we can get.  

David,

280-300 yard drives at The Preserve should allow for the par 5's to be reached in two and are usually hit by better than average players.  From a design standpoint, this same player should be challenged on the second shot, and sidehill or downhill lies are a somewhat subtle way to do that.  The thought is to make the better player have to hit a golf shot and it's one way for a designer to defend a reachable par 5. It really only affects the longer hitters and we think it is a better alternative than forcing a lay-up off the tee or designing all the challenge into the green site- where it can affect players of all skill levels.  I hope that makes some sense.

Regards, John

 

[A.G._Crockett]

TaylorA,

Paul Cowley has been traveling, so I will try to respond to your comments about Windermere.  Your observations are absolutely correct- the site had severe topography that when combined with the needs of the surrounding real estate made it a design challenge.  As a result, the real weakness in the course is probably in the routing.  It doesn't flow all that well due to long cart rides between holes and it certainly isn't walkable.  With that said, we have received many positive comments from golfers about how much they like the way the course is spread out through the surrounding hills, the different views you get, and how enjoyable some of the cart rides are- so you never know.

The strength of the course is in the individual holes themselves, as you mention.  Each hole has strategic merit, is very playable given the nature of the site, offers variety and fits the land fairly well considering the amount of earth that was moved.  I read a great review by Derek Duncan that really summed up what we tried to accomplish at Windermere, knowing the limitations we faced going in.  He stated in so many words that the overall course doesn't quite equal the sum of the individual holes.  I think that is a fair critique and I know the design team is quite satisfied with the work that was done there.  The course was well received when it opened, got a lot of play before it went private, and the developer did very well with the surrounding community.  I would say it was a win-win for everybody.

John

John,
Thanks for this post.  I've played Windermere a number of times and really enjoyed it, especially from the perspective of a GCA wonk who was impressed with finding a very good course on very poor land.  Very engaging, a lot of fun to play, excellent variety, etc.

A good contrast would be Laurel Springs.  It is a similar piece of property, but a far inferior course, IMO.  Laurel Springs has also now gone private, but that is no great loss to the Atlanta public access scene.  It just wasn't a course I wanted to go back to, unlike Windermere.

[Greg Tallman]

Paul,

Being as this came back to the top.

Saw Bob yesterday and I understand you will be on site next week... Stop by CDS for a michelada or two on the way through.

[Bill_McBride]

Paul, I had a chance to play Shell Landing before the hurricane(s) struck and really enjoyed it.  The driveable par 4 on the back nine was very enticing   but dangerous to attack with a duck hook!  The shortish par 5 early in the round looked like you could play around it to almost hole high.  The marsh setting was beautiful, good site I thought althought almost flat of necessity.

Overall it is a very fun course, would be more of a handful if the wind was up, as I'm sure it is there on occasion.

Is the course reopened and in good condition after what must have been substantial storm surge damage?

Thanks.

[paul cowley]

Bill...I understand Shell Landing fared better than most and re opened soon after Katrina passed.

We hope to start new courses at Watersound and Port St Joe next year, and I would enjoy seeing your 'new' course....sounds like quite an improvement.