Why is Shinnecock 'better' than Prairie Dunes?

[Ran Morrissett]

Would you rather have a game at Shinnecock Hills or Prairie Dunes? Almost everyone's gut answer would be Shinnecock Hills, I suspect, but how much of that is because of Shinnecock's historical importance as opposed to specific merit based on its golf holes?

In the role of devil's advocate, I pose the question: what are Shinnecock's strengths to those of PD's?

I have just updated the Shinnecock course profile with 12 new photos, though the lighting wasn't but so good. In comparing the photos from there and PD, well, it's a toss up. Both enjoy ideal, uninterrupted golf landscapes.

Shinnecock has more length but I would argue that is off set by PD's superior contours within its putting surfaces.

Shinnecock is more liberally bunkered, and PD doesn't have any non-one shotter remotely as well bunkered as the 16th at Shinnecock Hills. Conversely, does Shinnecock have the ideal little rolls within its topography as found down the 9th at PD? I don't think so.

The set of one shotters at each course would both certainly have to be included amongst the world top ten. Tie.

Each course has two three shot holes, with the 7th at PD the only one that wouldn't warrant a 9 out of 10. Advantage to Shinnecock.

In terms of great two shotters, isn't it a toss up between PD's 8th and the 14th at Shinnecock? However, do the rest of PD's two shotters contain perhaps a bit more variety than those at Shinnecock?

The job that each Green Keeper does is exemplary and both courses play at their ideal in terms of fast and firm. The one advantage that Shinnecock does enjoy (or more accurately, did enjoy as the USGA's set up for the US Open has just gone into effect) is wider fairways and thus, better playing angles. Some of PD's fairways are too narrow - just look at how wide the 8th fairway once was in the picture in the men's bar.

Neither course has a mongrel or awful hole that hurts its cause, which is truly remarkable over 36 holes.

Any way, what say you?

Cheers,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

I think the WIND tips the scale strongly in Shinnecock's favor.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

If the choice was a single round - I'd go for ShinnecocK. Its a more exhilirating golfing experience. For regular play I'd go choose Prarie Dunes, the greens are much more interesting and Shinnecock on a regular basis would be grueling.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ran,
I'd be there with equal enthusiasm if called upon to play at either of these places.  

[Mark_Fine]

In my first review of Prairie Dunes I described it as the Shinnecock of the midwest.  I love both courses!  To say one is better than the other is more a matter of personal preference!

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom, Do you consider Shinnecock to be so grueling, so relentless to the point where it is a knock on its overall design variety relative to the world's greatest courses? Would you think more of the course if it had a short risk/reward hole like 12 at St. Andrews or 10 at Royal Melboune West (two other "championship" courses that are anything but grueling for the average player/member)?

[ed_getka]

Having seen both courses only during the Opens on TV I would choose Prairie Dunes. The contours throughout the course and particularly around the greens just look like it would be more fun for a 10 handicap like myself who relies on my short game to hold things together. It was always a course I knew I would like to see some day, but after seeing the Women's Open it is near the top of courses I would like to see.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

I think you would have to eliminate the OPEN tees in making your comparison.

One course has been suped-up to accomodate an event, and the other remains mostly intact for member play.  If you return Shinnecock to its pre Open configuration, it isn't the overpowering bear that it is today.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Ran
The lack of a shortish risk/reward par-4 is a short coming, along with the greens. I think at one time the 6th was a short par-5, I could be wrong.

Shinnecock is extremely testing, but I'm not sure that should be considered a major weakness. The challenge is one of its greatest strengths, like Oakmont. It has so many other things going for it that I'm not sure I'd knock it down in the greater scheme of things. Its probably placed exactly where it should be. There are very few courses that don't have some kind of weakness. For example there are some who look at Cypress Point or NGLA and say their weakness is their lack of difficulty.

What would you consider the weakness of Prarie Dunes?

[CHrisB]

Ran,

I think the WIND tips the scale strongly in Shinnecock's favor.

Gee, the Great Plains of America are pretty darn windswept, and the wind was blowing particularly hard both times I have played at Prairie Dunes.  Is it that much windier at Shinnecock?

[brad_miller]

Having played both in the last few weeks, it is in fact,  much closer than many might think.
Wind, Shinnecock has plenty, but Hutchinson KS is one of the windest places in the USA. I have played PD in 25 plus MPH wind from both the SW and NE directions on  my 2 most recent visits, this along with mutiple exposed and elevated tees and greens  makes the wind a major factor. During the Women's Open they had little if any wind, which is rare.

Land contours, both greens and fairways, slight advantage to PD in fairways, larger advantage at the greensite. PD's  land movement is that of smaller waves, holes 8 and 9. Shinnecock's are massive waves on holes 9,10 and 18. Shinnecock has greens with slighty more pitch, PD's have as a set some of, if not the best internal contours that I have ever seen. "Maxwell Roles"

Best holes at PD: #'s 2,8,9,10 and 17
Best holes at SH: #'s 11,14,16 and 18.

Best par 3 of all 36-#2 at PD, runner up #11 SH
Best par 4 of all 36-#8 at PD  runner up #14 SH
Best par 5 of all 36-#17 at PD ties #16 at SH, next best #5 SH

Most indifferent hole at PD #15
Most indifferent hole at SH #8 or maybe #17, these all are still fine holes

PD wins the front nine big, SH kicks butt on the back nine and wins maybe 1 up overall.

Shinnecocks fairway lines are a perfect balance of width (pre USGA Open setup) Prairie Dunes seems to need a bit more width given the penalty for missing the fairway. On a windy day it is much easier to lose a ball or two at PD than at SH, thus the risk of a big number is greater at PD. If you follow the classic archies and their thoughts on the IDEAL Course this is a slight negative  PD vs SH. SH's slighty wider fairways also lets one attempt to play the preferred angle of attack on ones second shot into the greens.

All in all,  2 Great courses, much closer in their merits than many might think.

[Joe Andriole]

I think that Pat Mucci speaks the truth; Shinnecock now accomodates the modern game better than Prairie Dunes by virtue of its increased length.  Otherwise, I'll take PD, the green complexes are more ,interesting, the land forms more unique and the bunkering at least as good.  From similar distance it is a better examination of golf.  Unfortunately, length is a critical paramater.

[Matt_Ward]

For what it's worth -- Shinnecock is, in my opinon, the finest course in America. Yes, Prairie Dunes is no doubt one of the top 30 courses in the USA, but the gem from Long Island really has no peer and that goes beyond the US Open link. Think of it in boxing terms -- Praire Dunes is a middle weight champ -- SH IS THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP

I refer people to what Tom Doak said about SH in his closing sentence in Confidential Guide. To paraphrase -- a proven championship venue and a suitable test for the average golfer -- FEW (my emphasis) can say both. Amen to that.

Let me also mention it's important understand PD from the standpoint of the Perry Maxwell holes and those that came later through his son Press. I believe the original holes are indeed the key ones to play and although the holes done by his son are good they are just a shade lower in overall quality -- again, just my opinion.

Both courses feature substanial wind on many days -- in fact, you can make the case that PD has more wind velocity on a day-to-day basis but I can't substaniate that claim.

No doubt a number of the greens at PD are superb, but SH has the more comprehensive and more intense tee-to-green game plus a there are enough green contours present on several of the holes to keep you on your toes. Miss left on the 11th and see how easy   it is get up'n down for par.

Like I said at the outset -- PD is a great middle weight champ -- SH is the heavyweight champ.

[THuckaby2]

I refer people to what Tom Doak said about SH in his closing sentence in Confidential Guide. To paraphrase -- a proven championship venue and a suitable test for the average golfer -- FEW (my emphasis) can say both. Amen to that.

I haven't played Prairie Dunes, so I'll stay out of the comparison... but I have to react to the above quote.  Yes, Shinnecock meets this definition - proven championship venue, obviously, and would be fun and doable for all from up tees.  BUT... is this the only measure for determination of "America's Finest Course"?  I think holding "championships" is a function of politics and infrastucture as much as anything, so while that is a huge positive, I can't see making that "mandatory" for this determination...

Nope, America's Finest Course shares the initials, but it's about 1000 miles west:

SAND HILLS....

Sorry, couldn't resist.

TH

[Paul_Turner]

Being able to hit a draw tee shot (for the right hander) is a major advantage at Prairie Dunes.  Haven't played Shinnecock, but is it better balanced (more variety) in this respect?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris B, Brad Miller, Redanman,

I was at PD for 7 days, and there was virtually no wind.

With its proximity to two large bodies of water, abscense of wind at Shinnecock is rare.

Was the wind a factor in designing PD
I believe it was at Shinnecock.

Shouldn't that indicate the impact of wind on the golf course ?

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

Conversely, we played PD for 3 days with winds up to 40 mph.  (And 105 degF, I felt like I'd been mummyfied!)

I would have thought that wind was the norm rather than the exception there; otherwise, how would the dunes form?  Maybe it's not quite as windy as at Shinnecock?

[Chris_Clouser]

Prairie Dunes is only a few miles away from what has been measured as the windiest city in the United States by the National Weather Service, so I would think they would have their fare share of wind.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

I thought that at one time, PD was a sea/ocean and a salt bed, which explained the dunes.  

I always wondered why are there no nearby dunes, do you know why PD seems to enjoy that unique topography ?

Chris,

What is the windiest city ?
And, was it a one time reading or the every day reading throughout the year ?
Is it windier than Pacific/Bandon Dunes ?

I believe Shinnecock was designed with the prevailing wind as a significant consideration.

That would seem to indicate to me that the wind is significant, and a significant factor at that site, a narrow sliver of land seperating the Atlantic Ocean from Long Island Sound and Peconic Bay.

Was PD designed with a prevailing wind as a significant consideration ?  

[Ran Morrissett]

Matt, Does being a "heavyweight" course boil down to length and difficulty? Put another, what is the shortest length course that you consider a "heavyweight"? Is Merion at 6,482 yards no longer a heavyweight?? Or perhaps Cypress Point - I appreciate that Shinnecock is longer and harder than Cypress in the same wind. Therefore, is Cypress - cursed as it is with a greater variety of holes that come in all shapes and sizes - too short/easy to be considered a heavyweight?

[Mike_Cirba]

Ran;

Wouldn't Merion weigh in at closer to 6,700 yards these days with the new tees on 3, 5, 6, 14?, & 18?  

Not splitting hairs here, because I understand your question for Matt, but since the club has been trying to add length, I just wanted to be sure they got every "pound" they were entitled to when they hit the scales.  

[Paul Turner]

Patrick

I don't know the answers, but I would speculate that the sandy loam is-like you stated-from the area being under water at one point.  But I think the actual dunes would have been shaped by wind and rain?

There is similar terrain for a few miles if you turn left out of the club driveway.  I think it's only agriculture in the other direction, with heavier soil.

I would also like to know the various wind speeds for different famous courses.  Wonder which is the windiest?  Royal Portrush would get my vote, just from experience.

[Blowhard]

What is the windiest city ?
And, was it a one time reading or the every day reading throughout the year ?

Dodge City, KS
Average Wind Temperature 14 mph. (US National Climatic Data Center.)

[Matt_Ward]

Ran:

Fair question indeed.

I view SH as a course that will take on all comers -- it clearly has been tested by the world's finest players and in my analysis of clubs I place a value on the "totality" of the presentation.

In answering your question I apply the term "heavyweight" without singular focus on distance or difficulty. I am speaking about a course fully capable in handling the duality of players Tom Doak spoke about in his closing sentence about SH in Confidential Guide. How many other courses can say that?

Clearly, I would concur with you regarding Merion. The Ardmore layout is one of this country's top ten courses and fits into the "totality" I previously mentioned. The layout is an ABSOLUTE MUST play and no less a heavyweight.

As far as Cypress Point is concerned  ditto the "heavyweight" tag. The layout offers a number of different looks and even though the 18th hole is really a mega letdown I would easily apply the same tag.

So -- to answer your question there are "short" courses among Ward's heavyweight layouts.

If I had to choose between the three courses -- I would still yearn to play SH day after day. The course requires total command of your long and short game -- the ability to deal with varying weather conditions and a back nine that, I believe, is utterly superlative.

I believe Prairie Dunes is on that third level of courses that are wonderfully designed, but whose intensity in total shotmaking is just a bit less. That doesn't mean the course is a pushover -- clearly. However, I can easily see why PD would appeal to many players who don't want to face the kind of "intense" demands you are likely to find at SH, Merion or Cypress.

Just realize that there is a very fine, fine line between these types of courses. They are all so very special and in the final analysis -- personal preference is no less a consideration as well. But, for me, SH is the finest day-to-day course we have in the USA.  

[George Pazin]

Is Prairie Dunes a heavyweight at par 68?