Score Magazine -Canada's Top 100

[Bob Jenkins]

I totally agree with Tom D.

This list is a joke and always has been. The impression that someone out west gets is that the panel members from Ontario, Quebec, points east and some on the prairies all go immediately to the old Thompson courses and a few others out west because of their reputation and the fact they are Thompson courses.  Sort of fills up their obligation to include courses in the west. Also, Cape Breton Highlands only got recognition after a restoration and publicity but it was always there.

Many have heard of Marine Drive which is a good course but it is no where near as good as Shaughnessy, Point Grey, Northview Ridge or Canal, Morgan Creek and several others around the coast. Marine is short, very confined and has a reputation because of the number of great golfers who have come out of there. Nelford, Zokol, Roxburgh etc.

As for the east, New Ashburn outside of Halifax is much better than some of the others in that area and is no longer mentioned.

Big Sky in Pemberton (near Whistler) has it all over Nicklaus North but not many of the tourists want to drive the extra 20 minutes from Whistler to Pemberton to check it out.

Royal Colwood is a good course but should be well down any list. The "Royal" designation gets them a few votes. Victoria is quirky, on the ocean, fun, beautiful and old (Macan) but hardly a top 100 for the course alone. Maybe if you factor in the history, the site, it could be on the list for the "experience" but not for the quality of the course.

I have no idea how to do a sensible rating of courses over a country as big as this one but there should be some factor which takes into account how familiar they are with the courses.

Many other examples but I have probably made too many enemies already.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Interesting that not enough raters saw Oviinbyrd, Tom McBroom's new and quite good ultra private Muskoka retreat, and that Rod Whitman gets his due by having Blackhawk and Wolf Creek at #21 and #22.

Presumably Oviinbyrd would only have been in the running for new course, would it not?

[Willie_Dow]

Wayne - Who are these raters ?  Do they know Beaconsfield and Bruno ?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Wayne - Who are these raters ?  Do they know Beaconsfield and Bruno ?

Here's the list, presumably some of them have played those courses, but likely not too many.  There is only one name that looks French-Canadian so perhaps there are very few raters from the Montreal area.  Notice that Edgar Bergen's dummy was on the list

Rob Ackerman
Bob Beauchmin
Peter Birchard
Rod Black
Gordon Bocock
Harry Brotchie
Tim Campbell
Alan Carter
Thom Charters
Ben Cowan-Dewar
Peter Creighton
James Cronk
Ian Cruickshank
Mike DeYoung
Greg Ducart
Jim Finn
Grant Fraser
Curtis Gillespie
Michael Grange
Ron Green
Phil Gribbin
Don Hachey
David Hearn
Nigel Hollidge
Paul Iacono
Philip Jonas
Emmitt Kelly
Dan Keogh
Jeff Kraemer
Mary Ann Lapointe
Ian Leggatt
James Lepp
Michael Loftus
Charles Lorimer
Steve Marshman
Laura Matthews
Charlie McCarthy
Garry McKay
Dean Morrison
John Oliver
Alfie Phillips
Mark Pierog
Lorne Rubenstein
Glen Schnarr
Charlie Scott
Richard Scott
Curtis Stock
Tim Tait
Ken Tarling
Mark Teskey
Robert Thompson
Lisa Vlooswyk
Ryan Vold
Bill Walsh Jr.
Cory Woron
Jennifer Wyatt
Rick Young

[Wayne_Kozun]

Many have heard of Marine Drive which is a good course but it is no where near as good as Shaughnessy, Point Grey, Northview Ridge or Canal, Morgan Creek and several others around the coast. Marine is short, very confined and has a reputation because of the number of great golfers who have come out of there. Nelford, Zokol, Roxburgh etc.

I have to preface this by saying that I have never played golf in Canada west of Pt. Stanley, Ontario, but...

Short and confined are not necessarily negatives in my book, but the raters agreed with you re: Shaughnessy vs. Marine Drive as Shaughnessy was 50 places ahead.

I haven't seen the courses in BC in person but I wasn't that impressed with Shaughnessy on the telly last year.  It looks like they need either a lot of chain saws or a Cat 3 or greater hurricance (a la Doral) through the place to clear out the trees.

[Ian Andrew]

....and not one architect on the panel

[Kerry Gray]

Ian,
No architects but we have Rod Black. Could it be the same Rod Black who should not be allowed within 500 yards of a golf course during a televised event.
Please..stick with figure skating Rod, we don't hear you on those broadcasts.
For our non-Canadian friends, Rod is a very annoying golf announcer for our golf events. Something like Jim Nance with too much sugar but without the interesting stories.
Kerry.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Bob,
As I sit in my ivory tower in Toronto, further planning to hold down the west, I have to admit that I have not played golf in Kelowna or Victoria. However, I have played everything else in B.C. and Alberta and 29 of the top 30. The reality is that Canada's best golf is not in B.C., it is not regional bias, it is fact. I have Capilano in my top ten (sixth, I beleive) and I love it, but nothing else in the top 30. Capilano is routinely complimented with comments like "given the severity of the land and the wet weather, it is a great course". I think that the qualifying statements like that generally sum up what holds back western courses.

Also, when it comes to modern courses, there simply have not been the number or quality built out west that there have in Ontario. Westwood Plateau is on awful land, the Whistler courses do not stand out, etc. Whitman's work in Alberta is really strong, but otherwise...

I think to some extent Canada's quality courses in Canada are much like the concentrated quality in the northeastern U.S. Colt, Thompson, Park, etc. all did the bulk of their work in Ontario and Quebec. In my mind the biggest misses with the list are Park's Quebec courses, Tillie's Scarboro, Cataraqui, St. Thomas and Rosedale. All of which I have in my top 25, all of which are in Quebec.

I agree that Big Sky is better than NN and I have Ashburn New in the bottom 20 of my top 100.

As for some of the courses you mentioned. Morgan Creek is good, but there truly are ten McBroom courses in the GTA that are better. Northview is a similar situation.

There could probably be greater representation at the bottom of the list by western courses, but I think three in the top 30 for B.C really isn't too bad.

No enemy here, I just thought I would give you one panellist's thoughts.

[Adam_F_Collins]

...Something like Jim Nance with too much sugar...

I'm sorry, Jim Nance has way too much sugar for me already.

[Greg Beaulieu]

As for the east, New Ashburn outside of Halifax is much better than some of the others in that area and is no longer mentioned.

Have to agree. They have Glen Arbour as #24 in the country and there is no way I can believe that's correct. They have it as #2 in Nova Scotia behind Highland Links and that's nuts. It's not even the best course in HRM in my opinion -- that would go to New Ashburn. It's a Graham Cookie-cutter design that has a bunch of flaws. And they leave Digby Pines completely off the list. It's crazy.

[Sean Leary]

The fact that Westwood Plateau and SilverTip made it, albeit far down, doesn't speak well to this list.  Furry Creek must have been #101....

I think Shaughnessy is a course that good players seem to really like, as it is super tough.  Gotta like trees however.

[Ian Andrew]

It facinating to look at what's missing, or could be missing.

Easily Top 50:
Kawartha - awesome Thompson course
Burlington - easily twice the course of Oakdale or Bayview
Islesmere (white/blue) - Montreal's best kept secret
Royal Ottawa (beyond my comprehension that it's not on the list

Top 100
Elm Ridge (north or south)
Royal Montreal (Red)
Highland CC (in London)
Maple Downs - great Mitchell layout
Oshawa
Galt
Waskesiu - but nobody has seen it have they
Red Deer
Kanawaki

[Greg Beaulieu]

Truro

Truro, Nova Scotia? Or is there another Truro?

I've played Truro many times and it's fun, but I wouldn't consider it great. Heck, give me Oakfield, or Northumberland, or Abercrombie, or Ken-Wo, or even Chester ahead of Truro.

BTW, here's another rating, this time top 50 in Canada, that seems more in line with reality:

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk

[Kerry Gray]

Ian,
Cherry Downs, as in Clublink's Cherry Downs in Pickering?

As for what's missing I thought Wildire was excellent but perhaps the lack of a real clubhouse hurt it's chances. Best McBroom I have played but I've not seen Oviingbird, Manitou or Firerock.
 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Ian,
Cherry Downs, as in Clublink's Cherry Downs in Pickering?

I am guessing that Ian actually meant Cherry Hill, a Walter Travis course in Ft. Erie - just across the river from Buffalo.

[Yannick Pilon]

Having only played 16 of the top 100 on this list, I don't feel I can really criticize any of it.

However, I do know about Quebec courses, and there is a quick observation I made that brings a question to my mind.  Is golf in Ontario that good?

With 46 of the top 100 courses in the country, you need to ask yourself if these courses are as good as they seem to be according to this ranking!  Some of them, I have no doubts, are great and worthy of their spot, but others, from a distance (yeah, Montreal is that far from Toronto , seem totally interchangeable (again, I have not played them...)....

I would also be interested to see where all the panelists are from.  If its any indication, I can only recognize one panelist from Quebec.  Does this mean other provinces get the same treatment as well?  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that a bigger number of Quebec courses should find themselves in the ranking, I just find these numbers hard to believe....  But hey, Score magazine is hard to get in Quebec, maybe there is a relation there.

That brings me to the Quebec courses.  If Royal Montreal's Blue course is so highly regarded, where is the Red course?  Its probably better than the Blue, especially if the "fun" factor gets 20% of the grade.

Others like Royal Ottawa, Islesmere and Montebello deserve, IMHO, to be ranked ahead of Beaconsfield, Le Mirage and The Falcon.  And a few new good courses have arrived in the province in the past few years.  The Challenger and Fontainebleau come to mind, but yet, there is no sign of them anywhere....  Where do these panelists play?  And where do they come from?

I would support Robert Thompson's idea of doubling the size of the panel (and make sure thay come from everywhere in the country), and Ian Andrew's idea of including architects again, as long as the panellists votes can be made available.  I think these two ideas would help in providing a better ranking.

But anyways, these rankings are probably there to make us talk about the courses, right?  So far, it seems to be working very well...

This discussion is quite fun and entertaining, that's for sure!

Yannick

[Yannick Pilon]

Ian and Willie,

What is it that makes Beaconsfield so special in your mind? Appart from a strong routing, a great clubhouse and easy access from downtown, I just don't see it.  I would appreciate your take on it.

Thanks

[Kerry Gray]

[quote author=Yannick Pilon link=board=1;threadid=25116;start=25#msg466841
I would also be interested to see where all the panelists are from.  If its any indication, I can only recognize one panelist from Quebec.  Does this mean other provinces get the same treatment as well?  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that a bigger number of Quebec courses should find themselves in the ranking, I just find these numbers hard to believe....  But hey, Score magazine is hard to get in Quebec, maybe there is a relation there.

yet, there is no sign of them anywhere....  Where do these panelists play?  And where do they come from?

I would support Robert Thompson's idea of doubling the size of the panel (and make sure thay come from everywhere in the country), and Ian Andrew's idea of including architects again, as long as the panellists votes can be made available.  I think these two ideas would help in providing a better ranking.

This discussion is quite fun and entertaining, that's for sure!

Yannick

I agree with this as well. But let's keep in mind that Ontario has roughly 30% of the country's population and probably close to that percentage in golf courses. Many of them older classics which get a great deal of respect.
I also find it odd that the panel has but 4 women by my count. A growing segment of the golf market and certainly more than 7% of the current golf population. Some of these rankings could be affected by a more representative approach. I am aware of a couple of courses in the ranking that would could benefit by a more thoughtful apporach to placing the ladies tees. And of course some of the clubs are not known to be particularly friendly to women.
She Who Must Be Obeyed made me write this.  

[Dean Paolucci]

I am delighted to see 5 Willie Park, Jr. courses in Canada's Top 100.

36. Weston Golf & Country Club
Weston , ON | William (Willie) Park Jr | 1920

62. Le Club Laval-Sur-Le-Lac
Laval-Sur-Le-Lac , QC | William (Willie) Park Jr | 1917

70. Calgary Golf & Country Club
Calgary , AB | Llyod Wiley - William (Willie) Park Jr | 1897

72. Mount Bruno Country Club
St-Bruno , QC | William (Willie) Park Jr | 1918

76. Beaconsfield Golf Club
Pointe-Claire , QC | William (Willie) Park Jr | 1904

[Andrew Cunningham]

The great tragedy with Score's list is the fact that it is the only publication that ranks Canada's Top 100 golf courses.  Unlike Golf Digest, Golf Magazine, Golfweek, and countless other online journals Score has no competition to expose its inherent flaws and weaknesses.  Sadly for the vast majority of Score readers their rankings will be taken as fact not fiction.

[Allan Hutton]

I have only seen the raw list so I do not know whether this additional information is available.

Would it not promote better discussion, if the scores in each category were available?  If you could see what components of a courses score, be it condition, fun factor etc....went into it's ranking, we would have more of a base for discussion.

For instance, (I have not seen the National; so all conjecture), perhaps the national was equal in fun, scored slightly less in architectural merit, yet much better than St. Georges, as far as conditioning went.  Then we could see why courses were rated where they are, and promote discussion on each merit.

[Adam_F_Collins]

I think it's very difficult to get a solid rating/ranking of Canada's courses. There are some great distances between them, and few people can hope to get around to all of the best. Digby Pines is always missed out here in Nova Scotia, as it's three hours south of Halifax and Highlands is five hours north - which way would YOU go?

All ranking is questionable, but Canada's is even more so. Rank for yourself.

[Philippe Binette]

great golf in canada:
6 hours of driving 1 or 2 great golf courses

grest golf in the US
2 hours of driving (if no traffic jam) 10 or more great golf course

for the quebec factor:
I agree with Yannick on the absence of Montebello, I personally prefer Le Blainvillier to Le Mirage...

As for Beaconsfield, history is a factor... the routing is really stong and more than on the ground. The sequence of the holes is great.

Impressive 1st
Easy 2nd and 3rd
Hard par 3 4th (235 y into the wind)
Long 5
Hard 6th, 7th and 8th two long par-4 and a solid 3
Easy 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th (althought the passage of the highway 20 must have changed the routing for 9th to 11th)
Hard 13th and 14th
Accuracy on 15th to 17th
easy and dramatic 18th.

It's not of a top 25 caliber but certainly deserve a spot higher than where it is.
 

[Tyler Kearns]

I would also be interested to see where all the panelists are from.  If its any indication, I can only recognize one panelist from Quebec.  Does this mean other provinces get the same treatment as well?  

Yannick,

Two panelists from Manitoba.

TK

[Wayne_Kozun]

I also find it odd that the panel has but 4 women by my count. A growing segment of the golf market and certainly more than 7% of the current golf population. Some of these rankings could be affected by a more representative approach. I am aware of a couple of courses in the ranking that would could benefit by a more thoughtful apporach to placing the ladies tees. And of course some of the clubs are not known to be particularly friendly to women.
She Who Must Be Obeyed made me write this.  

Two of the top 20 courses, Redtail and The National, have no forward tees at all.  Redtail only has Blue and Black tees that play at 6621 and 6379 yards.  But these are both excellent courses, just not that playable for short hitters.

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