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Lance

Rees Jones spying the Black!
« on: October 10, 2002, 01:49:24 PM »
I just came home from playing the Black Course at bethpage. While walking off #14 two golf carts come rolling by our group and Rees Jones is sitting in the passenger seat of one of them holding onto a set of plans! The carts then proceeded towards the first tee for the ceremonies to announce the Open is returning in 2009. Since Mr. Jones was carrying plans then I suppose he is considering some changes for 2009...what changes might you all suspect he'd have in mind? I took a close look at the area behind the 14th tee today and I swear that if they really wanted to build a new tee box back there that it would have to be about a 230 yard shot which I think would be too long a shot to be received by the 14th green. What else he'd have in mind escapes me! BTW, I shot 93 today on the airated greens. The course looks pretty stark with every last bit of fescue cut down now. Lance
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2002, 02:04:37 PM »
Somebody has got to do something about Rees.  Someone has to talk to the USGA about him.  I mean this is ridiculous.

Jeff F.



THIS HAPPENS TO BE THE FAMOUS POST THAT STARTED ALL THE CONTROVERSY.  YOU'RE WELCOME!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »
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#nowhitebelt

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2002, 06:18:34 PM »
Jeff,

What is ridiculous ?

Are you positive that changes will be made ?

If so what changes ?

Are you positive that Rees is the author of any potential change ?

Shouldn't we find out the facts first, then react,
as opposed to reacting first and then ascertaining the facts ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2002, 03:47:52 AM »
Easy Pat -- you're frothing again. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2002, 04:23:17 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I'm not frothing, Jeff is, I'm just trying to be the voice of reason, advocating the obtaining of the facts before drawing conclusions.  Is that wrong ?  Or, if Rees is involved does judgement without the facts get a pass ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2002, 04:34:03 AM »
The stated facts are--Rees riding past #14 with a set of plans in his hands!

While it would be nice for some to know exactly what Rees and the course may or may not have in mind, there doesn't seem to be anything really wrong with mentioning he was seen out there with plans and then someone else saying they hope more isn't in store for the course!

It seems pretty clear to me that Rees wasn't riding around out there with plans in his hand just to fix a ball mark or something!

If those who are concerned about things like this wait until all the facts become known, whatever they were concerned about in the first place will probably already be done!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2002, 06:35:18 AM »
Jeff,
C,mon, Rees Jones is a human being with feelings, too. Let's insert your name into your post.

Rees Jones,
"Somebody has got to do something about Jeff. Someone has to talk to the USGA about him.  I mean this is ridiculous".

Rees J.  
 

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

GeoffreyChilds

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2002, 07:05:43 AM »
Jeff- The only thing ridiculous is your reply to the fact that Rees was present at the Black course when it was made public that the Open would return in 2009.

Tom- Why don't you now go and complain about changes to the classic Harding Park coursde that will affect the public golfers in SF?  I'm sure all those poor souls will yearn for the old conditions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SPDB1

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2002, 07:20:41 AM »
seriously, i mean how many times do you think unsuspecting golfers at some classicly designed course in the mid-atlantic/northeast region have looked up in time to see Tom Paul wizzing by in a golf cart carefully examining original plans for the course.

would you say: "somebody has got to do something about Tom Paul."   ???   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2002, 10:47:32 AM »
Guys,

Relax!

I am simply saying that it seems like everything the USGA does, Rees is there to the rescue.  I didn't say that I hate the man.  You act as if I burned his house down!  

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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GeoffreyChilds

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2002, 11:39:02 AM »
Jeff

Fine- you didn't say that you you hate the man.

Please then tell us for FOR THE RECORD what exactly "should be done about Rees?" and what exactly would you talk to the USGA about regarding him?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2002, 12:06:18 PM »
I'm always one of the first to defend the Rees critics, but getting fired up because he was seen with a chart driving by the 14th seems a little paranoid even to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2002, 12:48:31 PM »
Hey it's a Rees Jones golf course  ;)  Shouldn't he be allowed to do as he pleases with it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2002, 03:56:45 PM »
Lance,

How are you so sure that you saw Rees holding
ARCHITECTURAL PLANS OF BETHPAGE ?

He rides by in a cart, and from a distance, you can ascertain, without fear of contradiction that he was holding a set of plans ?  

And, you're so positive about what you saw that you chose to report same, ANONYMOUSLY.

Would you be willing to wager on what you believe you observed and reported to this site ?

Jeff Fortson and others,

It amazes me.

An individual comes on to the site, ANONYMOUSLY, and posts something about REES, and you and others accept his word as GOSPEL, without one bit of reservation, without so much as a question with respect to his alleged observation.
Does that seem strange to you ?

Do you all go through life accepting the word of someone who has neither the courage nor the confidence to tell you who they are ?

Am I the only one who sees the genesis of a feeding frenzy started by an unsubstantiated rumor from an anonymous source ?

If someone pulled the same stunt about C&C the site would go ballistic.  You'd all be incredulous and outraged.
Nah, there's no BIAS here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2002, 04:17:57 PM »
Patrick,
"Lance" comes on and says he sees Rees with a set of plans.

Jeff Fortson chimes in eschewing the USGA to do something about Rees.

No post since has agreed with "Lance" or Jeff Fortson.

 ??? ??? ??? ??? To paraphrase the old woman in the Wendy's ads "Where's the bias"  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2002, 04:31:10 PM »
Jim,

The bias is in the acceptance of the words and conclusions of an anonymous poster, regarding Rees that:
1. Rees was carrying plans
2. They were for alterations to the golf course

Jeff then says, "somebody has to do something about Rees"

What does that imply ?

TEPaul then says, that Lance's comment is stated fact, without so much as questioning Lance.  Blind acceptance.

George Pazin then says he was seen with a chart, accepting Lance's anonymous conclusion.

Mark Fine then says it's his course, let him do what he pleases.

Jim, it just seems to me, that before drawing conclusions, one should ascertain the facts, especially when an anonymous poster makes a pronoucement and draws a conclusion, that for some reason, every body accepts blindly.

Even reporters are supposed to get two sources and confirms.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2002, 05:32:24 PM »
Patrick,
It may be that "Lance" is being given the benefit of the doubt.
A call to the Parks and Rec Dept. could go a long way to finding out if the story has any merit.

I think you saw a couple of little lazy jabs, but no out and out punches.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

B. Klein

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2002, 05:49:28 PM »
Gee, this post reads like the transcript of a fight in a marriage gone sour. Come to think of it, too many of recent GCA posts have started to sound like this, too.

My bet, by the way, is that at Bethpage they will widen the driving area on no. 12 so that there's an alternate route around the fairway bunker; way over on the right side are some bunkers and old fairway waiting to be reclaimed.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Guest

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2002, 06:14:39 PM »
Mark, the sad thing is, if my information is correct, is that RJ really does think it is  his course, or at the bare minimum his and Mr. T's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2002, 06:23:02 PM »
Jim,

I'm a little surprised at you.

Don't you think that I've already done my homework ?

Brad Klein,

I'm surprised that the conclusion from some, is that negative, not positive changes will be made to the golf course.

Many people, including the players raved about the golf course, why shouldn't there be an ongoing attempt to improve it ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »
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Jamie_Duffner

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2002, 07:01:22 PM »
Somewhere in the initial post was a question about what  changes could be made to the Black.  I'd like to add my two cents to that question.

1. "Tillie-ize" about four or five greens, particularly 2, 3, 6, 8, and 9.  And I don't mean bury a dead elephant or something radical.  Keep in the Tillie mold, add some tilt or tiering, not humps or troughs.

2. Make 2 and 6 world class short par 4's.  I think 2 cries out for a green similar to 16 at ANGC, utilize the front left bunker more, extend the green around the back of that bunker, creating a similar hole location as the Sunday spot for 16 at ANGC.  Elevate a back right portion, would make for a great hole location. BTW - 2 averaged 4.2 at the open and I stood in the fairway on Saturday when they had a front left hole and watched about ten players come through, four hit it into the front left bunker - I was amazed how poor these wedge shots were.  6 - needs a better green, because the layout is terrific.

3. Redo 18!!!!  My idea is simple - move the green back and to the right so it sits more on the side of the hill.  A diagonal left to right green would result.  Now you have a gentle dogleg right hole, move the fariway bunkers on the left up the fariway and more diagonal left to right, thus framing a diagonal left to right fariway.  Now it's a better tee shot, because a three iron off the tee leaves a 200 yard shot rather than  170ish and the movement of the fairway resembles the rest of the course.

As for 14, a new tee extending the hole over 200 yards is ridiculous.  If they can do it, maybe a few yards so it's not a nine iron, but thats it.  And who says a nine iron is all that bad!  I also like the idea of an easy hole before the extremely difficult 15-16-17 stretch.

As for 10 and 12 - blame it on the USGA setup.  10 was stripped of it's strategic intent at 492 yards.  At 470 yards, the hole is more interesting and the irony is maybe more difficult as some very good and gently moving fairway bunkering comes into play.  12 needs a short hitters route although it doesn't really play 499, due to the dogleg it can play shorter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lance

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2002, 07:11:18 PM »
HEY-why am I being called a liar? I SAW REES JONES FROM THREE FEET AWAY & HE HAD BLUE PRINT PLANS OF SOME KIND IN HIS HAND! Today's Newsday stories CONFIRM he was onsite and is considering tweaking the course to add additional length, although no specifics are mentions. Lance
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2002, 07:18:43 PM »
Lance,

Are you sure that those weren't as builts, plans of the course as it is ?????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lance

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2002, 07:24:16 PM »
BTW, I agree that the 18th is still the "weakest Link" of the Black's chain. I've heard from someone reliable that Mr. Jones originally toyed with the idea of the tee being moved WAY left, over and to the right of the Tee Box for the Par3 5th hole of the RED Course, which would turn the 18th into a dogleg right in the 475 yard range with the current right hand bunker complex of the 18th sitting as the elbow of the dogleg. The idea was abandoned for two reasons; 1) the stand of trees between the 18th of the Black and the First hole of the red would have to be cut down, and 2) this new Tee would be for U.S. Open play only because it would play across part of the Red course. The notion of having a tee not usable by the public at any other time was not acceptable. My personal feeling is that the 14th WILL be extended and that #7's rear tee will be moved back and the hole will be returned to a natural Par five of some 590 yards, bring the cross bunkers into play requiring a carry off the tee 250 yards to reach the fairway JMO. Lance
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lance

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2002, 07:27:02 PM »
Patrick, I presume that the plans were indeed the present course, or the original Tilly palns and that Mr. Jones was using them as point of reference. Today's Newsday says "further Tweaking" before the next US Open will be left to Rees Jones. Lance
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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