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Andy Levett (Guest)

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2002, 02:23:58 PM »
British Isles is a geographical term, not a political one. However it can cause offence which is why the highly-regarded recent popular history of the bigger  island and the smaller island to the left of Europe by Norman Davies was entitled The Isles. The opening chapter of that is a good jumping off point for anyone interested in exploring the issue further. Golf World, I think (I don't have the magazine in front of me) said Great Britain and Ireland.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lester_Bernham

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2002, 03:03:02 PM »
The front page of this months Golf World features a photo of Kingsbarns and says " The Top 100 courses in the British Isles 2002 "
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2002, 03:32:35 PM »
Well, looking at the list, I got depressed just thinking about the upcoming K Club Ryder Cup. When is the next time we will see a Ryder Cup on a top 25 UK course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_battye

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2002, 04:09:27 PM »
The Three W's:

Worplesdon @ #67
Woking @ #86
West Hill @ #95

The three above course's all within a few minutes drive of each other on the Surrey heathlands, cause much local discussion as to which is the superior. My personal bias would place Woking higher than Worplesdon, due to the quality of the greens, and all three higher than they currently rank.

I would be interested to know what people on GCA who have more knowledge than myself on the subject matter and who have played these course think.

Does anybody else think that West Hill is vastly underatted?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2002, 06:24:32 PM »
Does anyone know if this top 100 list is available for download any where on the internet? I cannot find a website for the UK Golf World magazine. Obviously, I could print it off this site, but I am looking for a more direct route. Thanks.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2002, 07:34:14 PM »
Muirfield weighing in at No. one is just politics at work: pure and simple. Yes, it is good - very good in fact, and certainly deserving of a top-10 spot. It's bunkering is world-class and the greens on the whole interesting. It is one of my favourite tracks but how could anyone compare it to Royal Portrush or Royal County Down?  :o

By links standards, its terrain is decidedly uninspiring. And so, to "top the pops", the raters must have given really high marks to its architectural merit.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2002, 02:00:42 AM »
Paul

Here is a question for you.
How far down that list could you go and still get a course equal to the 25th best in Australia ?
For example I'm thinking Worplesdon at 67 easily makes our top 25.
It really is amazing how much fun golf there is over there.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2002, 02:47:55 AM »
Clayts:

It is a sobering thought that when I went down the Great Britain & Ireland list, I saw courses there or thereabouts that were comparable, or better, than the 25th best Australian course. For example:

75: Woburn
88: Portstewart
96: Tralee
100: Royal North Devon

I haven't played Worplesdon, but it is by all accord a real little cracker!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2002, 04:07:35 AM »
Ozmen

Don't get too depressed.  American is realtively bereft of really interesting golf courses too.  I suspect that if the likes of those courses in the 45-50 GW range (e.g. Prestwick, North Berwick and Rye) were located in Southampton, we wouldn't be hearing so much about NGLA, Fisher's Island, etc. on his website......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2002, 05:36:22 AM »
Mike C and Paul D

What do you think of the courses at my old local club, Woburn?  I've always liked them, the Dukes has some fine holes, but the routing does tend to be a bit back and forth in the back 9.  Duchess has some fine holes too and a more interesting routing.  The Marquess is more modern but not overly so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2002, 05:43:46 AM »
All and sundry

Just picked up my copy of the mag, and it is worth looking at.  Varialble, but often very good, sketches of each of the 100 courses.  Some very good photography.  Interesting and detailed comments from the likes of Steele, Allis, Faldo and Rafferty.  Those of you outwith the UK can order a copy for 5 pounds 60 delivered (about $9).  You can e-mail emap@mercury-international.com for the details.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jack Marr

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2002, 07:34:39 AM »
It's a bloody shame the list does not fit my preferences exactly. Something is wrong with the world. I know my collegue Paul agrees with me on this one, but Hedfort is a great parkland course - I wonder was it ever considered. Connemara, with its new nine, is superb and in a remarkable area of the country.

If I didn't know better, I'd say Golf World is deliberately trying to wind me up.

All in all, a good read, and most of the top courses are in there, from what I have played.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2002, 01:26:50 PM »
Paul
We always played the 2nd as the first in the tournament which I would have thought was better because the 17th must be a really disappointing 18th and the par 5 was a terrific finisher but not so good as the next as as starter.
Does that make sense?

I only played the Dukes and always enjoyed it because the good holes were really good -4,5,10,12,15.(tournament order)
Never really enjoyed the tee shot at 6 and thought the shot off the tee at 16 was awful -big slope right to left and dogleg left to right .It was a pity almost everybody had to hit an iron off the 13th because it was so penal to miss the narrow gap but it was a tough par 5.
I remember it was so dry one year they put railway sleepers down the right of the 18th to stop the ball sliding off the fairway into the rubbish.
Lee Trevino also hit one of the best shots I've ever seen there when he needed a birdie to beat Rodger Davis.
From about 265 yards he hit a low running fade with a three wood to six inches.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2002, 03:51:07 PM »
Mike

Yes, I watched many a tournament there and the par 5 finisher is much better.  My favourite hole is the tournament 4th, that great par 5 with the long approach over the grassy gulley.  That 6th tee shot is a nerve tingler if you draw the ball and I kind of agree with 16th, as the negative cambre does make it awkward; I did see a couple of pros slam their drives over the pine on the inside of the dogleg, down into the dip.

I remember that drought year too, the ball could kick anywhere-they got fairway irrigation after that!
And I was practically next to Trevino when he cut that 3 wood to inches- a great memory.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2002, 04:47:20 PM »
Did the text point to any possible reasons why Brancaster rose so much and Westward Ho! and Machrihanish fell so much? All told, I can't imagine three courses which were less likely to have seen change since the ranking two years prior. Thus, to see wild fluctuations for those three courses is a puzzler, but so again is the list overall.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2002, 06:47:50 PM »

Quote
Well, looking at the list, I got depressed just thinking about the upcoming K Club Ryder Cup. When is the next time we will see a Ryder Cup on a top 25 UK course?

Jeff:

"next time"?  I'm afraid never, but we've had this discussion about tournament venues and Major championships.  Let me just suggest that you not be depressed when thinking about the K Club - the event is also headed to Wales in the not-so-distant future.

If I had to bet, I'd say that Continental Europe's influence on the European Tour will increase over the next 40 years, meaning Ryder Cups hitting Scandinavia, Germany, Spain, France, or even Italy.

I read elsewhere on the board that you are a Loch Lomond member.  Would your club ever consider paying the large fee to host the Ryder Cup?  From all accounts, I've heard it is a wonderful course.  Maybe that's the one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Kelly

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2002, 01:11:02 AM »
In a preface to the magazine, Faldo says that Europe has to catch up with the US in the quality of parkland layouts. He says only Loch Lomond and Mount Juliet can compare, routing wise.

What I noticed is that four of the top ten courses are in Ireland, north and south, yet its next highest ranking courses are 21st. After the ones in the 20s, there is a further large gap.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lester_Bernham

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2002, 04:03:34 AM »
Ran
There wasnt any real reason given for Brancaster's rise in the ratings apart from  "The combination of isolation and the quality of the challenge has been recognised by the panel making it the highest climber in this years top 100 "

On Westward Ho , the reason given for its drop was  " The sea has broken through the pebble ridge , the course's condition has been damaged by grazing sheep and technology reduced some of the course's proudest defences to mere spectators . Its still a treat but a creaking monument " .

No reason given for Macrahanish or Gullanes drop by 25 places .

Best Regards
Lester


History Lessons
Nick Faldo
Old courses need to get modern - new ones should look to the past.

WHEN IT comes to golf courses, we Brits are certainly entitled to shout about what we've got. From rugged, natural, beautiful links courses such as Royal Dornoch, Turnberry and Royal County Down, to classic heathland layouts like Sunningdale, St George's Hill and Walton Heath. And yet, as so often seems the case in Britain, our achievements are more historic than contemporary. In the early part of the last century we were undoubtedly the world's best at designing courses. Harry Colt, Herbert Fowler, Willie Park and Alister Mackenzie were out on their own. True, they were occasionally presented with great pieces of land, but what they produced was usually a terrific test of golf, which was also very sympathetic to the surrounding countryside.
Skilfully balancing subtlety and drama, we built courses admired the world over for their clever placement of hazards and encouragement of strategic play. Sadly,I think most modern designers have lost (or are discouraged from employing) these talents and too many churn out courses as if they were manufacturing shoes on a production line.
And the proof of this is really in the pudding. Take a look at Golf World's Top 100 courses and you will see that a large proportion of them were built over 70 years ago. Very few modern designs have made much of an impression on this list in recent years. Why is this? Why can we no longer create masterpieces like we used to?
Part of the problem is that too often we attempt to ape the American way, we try to create 'American style' courses - but without American conditions or budgets. For example, sprawling, shallow bunkers not only look incongruous in a British landscape but they are also inappropriate. Colt and Fowler typically built deep pot-styled bunkers, largely because that was the only way of keeping the sand in the hazards in windy conditions.
The vast majority of courses being created today can loosely be described as parkland, and unfortunately this type of course has never been our forte. Even in the 'Golden Age of Architecture'we never produced a Bethpage Black or a Winged Foot. In fact, I can only think of one or two really strong parkland layouts:
Mount Juliet in Ireland and Loch Lomond in Scotland . And yet, there is no shortage of beautiful parks in our country - look at all our country estates - but very rarely do such sites fall into the hands of developers, and even when they do, securing planning approval is an extremely difficult process.
As much as I enjoy playing our traditional layouts, I fear that many of our older courses no longer provide the challenge they once did. Of course this is a result of the huge advances in technology in recent years and British golf's reluctance to address the situation. And it is the reason why British courses are slipping down the rankings whenever a 'Best Courses of the World' list is compiled.
I recently played the East Course at Wentworth: it is a charming golf course, but even an old man like me was driving it 50 yards past all the bunkers. That's no good, you've got to bring them back into play. The Americans are always refining their courses, adding a bunker here, putting a tee in there. We tend to be very bad at that in Britain: "It's got 18 tees and 18 greens, blimey, what more do you want?" Our approach is to build a course, leave it for half a century and expect it to produce the same challenge as it always did.
So many courses in Britain now have hazards which are miles away from the green; so a player who hooks a shot wildly ends up in the deepest bunker on the golf course. That's the last thing you want. Let's make our courses tough for the guy who hits it straight; and let's make it easier for the poor chaps who don't know if it's going 30 yards left or 30 yards right.
My other concern for British courses relates to conditioning. Increasingly, I see a trend towards overwatering. A couple of summers ago I played a very famous heathland course in Surrey. It hadn't rained for six weeks and yet it was so soft that I hit a 3-iron onto a green and it backed up. I'll never forget that. I thought "No. Why do they do that? If it's dry, let it play firm and fast. Let it be natural." Target golf encourages one-dimensional golf. What has most distinguished British golf courses in the past is their emphasis on shot-making - encouraging, and rewarding, the skilful execution of a wide variety of strokes. This is something we should never forget.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2002, 06:02:11 AM »
Lester, Thanks for that. Re: Westward Ho!, I guess it broke through in front of the 8th green?

Have you played the two at Berkshire? Do you prefer the Red or Blue? How is a day there vs. Sunningdale (other than less expensive,  I hope)? Sunningdale Old must enjoy enjoy the more rolling topography of the four courses?

Golf World must have added/lost some panelists as some of the fluctuations are remarkable. For instance, Donegal fell out two years ago only to rejoin the list at a lofty #66 this time. Gullane No.1 drops 25 spots. Portstewart drops 22 - I guess more are seeing the back nine as a huge let down (save for the 17th)? Rye jumps up 27 spots, Prestwick down 15? Such erractic results makes one wonder if they got it 'wrong' this time or was it the time before?

Four of the most rewarding courses for an overseas visitor to play - The Addington, Pennard, Brora and Royal Worlington - don't even make the list  :-[  Though I'm not one to swoon at the name of Royal Dornoch, seeing it at a lowly #15 is a puzzler.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

Lester_Bernham

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2002, 08:36:11 AM »
These ratings are definitely "erratic" , and I presume it shows that the reveiwers went in with a blank sheet and took no account of the 2000 ratings  ? .

I think we all have favourites that we cant believe ,they havent been included .

And I presume it will only get harder as Golf World already reckon that there next ratings in two years time will include , Turnberry(Kintyre) , Doonbeg , StAndrews Bay (Devlin) , Carton House (O'Meara) , and Queenwood . So what 5 on the present list will lose there place ? .

Lester
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2002, 09:35:33 AM »
Interesting article from Faldo, is it from the same issue of Golf World?
Some good comments on over watering, hazard placement (although surely he's not refering to the classic courses here?).

But if he starts meddling with Wentworth East  >:(
I can't beleive he cites World rankings as having any relevance in GB&I!  And he doesn't appear to be aware of the many courses being restored here in the US, after they went down the path of "modernisation/improvement".

Also he has some nerve to criticise huge, sprawling US style bunkers in the UK, when his course (with Smyers) at Chart Hills is the epitome of this!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

eamon

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2002, 02:36:51 PM »

Quote
I must admit , I am having a chuckle at this list , as it doesnt include any of the Ryder Cup venues , Belfry, Celtic Manor, Gleneagles PGA Centenary (K-Club only makes No.79 ) .The thing is I am sure out of all the reviewers here , some must have been on the Ryder Cup Commitee as well , so why they bother with all those visits to courses etc , when it is obviously all about the size of the cheque.

Mike
Having never played Carne , how many points do you give it , using the above criteria ?

Eamon
83 of the 86 reviewers never visited Carne, so I am not surprised at Carne not been included in the top 100

Tom
In a way I agree with you , but it just seems the norm nowadays that Ireland is included in the British Isles , Geographically wise anyway .  i.e. The British Lions Rugby team includes several (non complaining )Irish Rugby players.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Roger G

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2002, 03:55:49 PM »
Eamonn

I know Rafferty visited Carne. How do you know only three visited (not that I doubt you)? I would certainly have it high in my top 100.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Roger

Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2002, 04:06:30 PM »
Eamonn

I see from your profile how you know. You have a wonderful course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf World Top 100
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2002, 09:36:00 AM »
Just got my copy of the magazine at a Borders store in NYC. Kudos to Golf World for a gorgeous, informative issue.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »