Is a real variety in fairways a good indication of architetural quality?

[TEPaul]

It's an interesting point to ponder and probably an even better one to discuss.

Of course the next question is how well do they actually work?

In my opinion, when I first see a golf hole from the tee and there's something about it that makes me ponder what I should or could do or am supposed to do, well, to me that's the first step of interest and quality.

Of course it is possible that that may spell architectural travesty too, but that's another subject for another time.

[JESII]

Interesting way of phrasing that third paragraph. I agree, but never would have come up with it. Did you have the chance to play Moselem prior to the PA Am? If not have you in the past? Do you think this topic applies pretty well there?

There are enough things about Moselem that would generally conspire to make me really dislike the golf course but I can't do it. I think this topic is a big reason why. Perhaps Moselem has benefitted in that regard from technological advances.

#1 - I hit driver because I like the way it looks but 3 wood or rescue could have worked well.
#2 - Same as above, three options off the tee as far as club selection and each would dictate a different line and shot shape.
#4 - Another interesting drive although anything less than 3 wood would simply be very conservative.
#6 - Pretty much just a driver, but a challenging driving hole with a slightly offset fairway.
#7 - Good challenging drive for a par 5 that is only remotely reachable. Strongly recommended left-to-right shot.
#8 - Strongly recommended right-to-left.

These strong recommendations from the course are a good thing in my mind in this day of balls and clubs that go very straight.[/i]

#9 - A player could hit anything from driver down to about 7 iron off this tee and still think he is playing for birdie. I wouldn't call it a great hole, but it sure grabs your attention.
#10 - Another tee shot with about four club options off the tee. The challenge at the green really makes you feel like you've got to be aggressive.
#11 - I think three iron was the best club selection for me. In the three days I hit rescue through the fairway at about 185 and way too close to the left trees on day one, three iron to the top of the hill at about 205 in the fairway, and driver into the left trees through the fairway at about 150. Another multi-club tee situation.
#12 - Any non-drivers have some other reason than strategic. That being said, it's the second, and last, par-five and this one really strongly recommends a right-to-left shape, just not too quick.
#14 - Just balls out with the driver, but better have it under control or it becomes a tough bogey.
#16 - Depending on the wind and your length it could be more interesting than it was for me. With a helping wind I was able to hit it over the bunker to about 100 yards each day. Into the wind would have been another matter, although I cannot see hitting anything other than driver.
#17 - One of the toughest driving holes I've ever played. Again, could be anything from driver down to three iron depending on how aggressive you want to be. And again, a tough green sort of pushes you to be aggressive. Regardless, the ball almost has to move right-to-left.
#18 - Wind and firmness sort of dictate the exact yardage you want to hit this one. For any given combination of conditions there is really only one club a player would hit off this tee. The challenge (at least for me) is to get a decent line off the tee. Such a high elevation makes it difficult to line up properly.

Interesting course.

[TEPaul]

"Did you have the chance to play Moselem prior to the PA Am? If not have you in the past? Do you think this topic applies pretty well there?"

Sully:

I didn't play Moselem this last week (some of the committee did on Sunday) but I have played it a ton in the past. It was where I had my best Pa Open which for me was just basically  making the final round cut ).

Yes, I do think some of the fairways have some unique variety, some good, but one, at least, a bit too odd (#9) and other holes that aren't of much interest that way. Could some of them be improved somehow that way? Maybe or perhaps, That's a question I pondered and perhaps sort of touched on with the super on my way out).

By the way, what did you shoot in the last round? It must have been pretty fine? And if it was, my suggestion to you would be to fire your Dad forever as your caddie and go it alone with a little pipe bag on your shoulder.

[JESII]

72 the last day which falls in between his two rounds of 75 and 70. Not sure I could have carried my own all three days though. Serious heat. Not bad for an overzealous mid-section like mine though. I lost about 12 or 13 pounds those three days.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

TEP

This could be true.

Fairways with interesting features such as humps, hills, deep swales, ditches or deeper bunkers or even trees in or close to the line of play, usually indicate the following.

1) The existing topography of the site is interesting
2) The architect has a philosophy of challenging the golfer from the tee rather than leaving a corridor to play down and flanked by « pseudo » hazards.
3) The budget for construction not only covers the greens complexes and teeing areas but also the extensive earth movement for fairways.

If these considerations are true then there is a good chance the Architect will keep the level of architectural quality up in the Greens Complex.

I’ve also seen plenty of courses with great Greens but boring fairways – however this would be low architectural quality in my book.

I like the idea of the « Ponder Factor ». It’s particularly interesting when there are some smaller flatter areas on the fairway that give distinct advantages for the second shot mixed with subtle disadvantages like steeper slopes – or putting oneself in a blind position at the bottom of a swale.
The choice of targets can step up the pondering.

By the way what do you mean by pondering ?

Some ponders on the Tee – not necesarily mine

·   That’s a fine looking girl on the other fairway
·   Shall I risk my Pro VI with the Out of Bounds so close or take a Lake Ball ?
·   Did I switch off my mobile telephone ?
·   How much do I stand to lose if I double up on this hole ?
·   How does the snow clearing man get to his snow plough in the morning after it’s been snowing the night before?
·   To hell with it – I’ll take Driver.


JC-S

[Joe Hancock]

·   That’s a fine looking girl on the other fairway

John,

There is nothing more architecturally relevant than that! I might also argue there is a great deal of strategy involved as well.

I was golfing with a guy who, when near a fine looking girl on an adjacent green, he promptly took one of his own clubs out of his bag and walked over to her, asking:

"Excuse me, did you heppen to leave this club on the 12th green?"

I was duly impressed with the strategy, but wondered what might have gone wrong had she replied in the affirmative.

I wish I was smarter.....

Joe

[TEPaul]

"By the way what do you mean by pondering?"

John C-S:

I mean a number of things, and frankly this kind of thing just might turn into another of my catch phrases that defines some aspect of quality architecture.

The "Ponder Factor".

It's when players come to a shot, generally the tee box on a hole and there's enough going on with the hole that they just can't decide what to do or what club to hit or what strategic option to try. It makes them stop for a while and "ponder" their club selection, direction, distance, strategy, whatever.

Have you ever noticed how often the great little short par 4 10th at Riviera makes even the tour players do that in the heat of competition? That clearly shows the hole is interesting and great and that happens every year.

I've never seen a hole that tour pros tend to play in so many different ways from one another. That alone is pretty unusual on tour. I'll never forget the 1998 La Open where in the final round Love, Woods and Tryba who were all in contention in the final group played the hole in three different directions and with widely differing clubs, and it took all of them a while to figure out what they wanted to do. How cool is that? That shows quality archtiecture plain and simple.

Another good example of a hole with a great "Ponder Factor" is when you see players walking around on the tee trying to decide which side of the tee they want to tee off from.

When that kind of thing gets the best of all, some of them actually start walking around the tee in tighter and tighter little circles like dogs sometimes do just before they squat down and shit.  

[John Chilver-Stainer]

TEPaul

Now I ponder - what did the players at Riviera Nr.4 ponder in their pants about?
What was causing their indecision?
Can you tell us?

[TEPaul]

John C-S;

Have you ever stood on the tee of Riviera's #10 and looked out on that hole?

If so, it's not hard to understand what they were pondering.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

TEPaul

I've never been to the USA - although I once had the visitors visa. Maybe one day I'll have the pleasure of pondering on the 10th Tee at Riviera. What’s special about it ?

[TEPaul]

"What’s special about it?"

John C-S:

There are a number of things really special about #10 Riviera.

In a sense that hole just may be considered perhaps THE text book example of what really good "man-made" golf architecture can be at its very best.

The reason I say that is because that hole was designed and done on basically a totallly amorphous flat landform with basically not a single natural asset going for it.

The hole's length, width, bunkering schemes, green size, angle and shape is completely brilliant and the way that fact is basically borne out and proven in play is year in and year out noone, not even touring pros can seem to figure out the best way to play it.

There are pretty much three distinct tee shot options for good players---to go right, left of try to drive the green or get very close to it.

The point of all this is the test of time has completely proven that these options are in such a complete state of "balance" or "equilibrium" such that noone seems to ever really be able to decide which one is best to use and when.

Essentially, it just doesn't get any better than that with man-made architecture sort of minus natural assets.

That hole is completely text book architecture and the proof of how good it actually works is borne out in the width of the hole's scoring spectrum over the years by all levels of golfers.

I don't have the exact quote so I'll just have to wing it but some sports writer once described Riv's #10 as something like:

"A real hussy sitting alone at the end of a bar with her skirt hitched all the way up, a butt hanging out of her mouth and a look about her that says---Come on over here, boy, and let's see what you think you can do with me."

[John Chilver-Stainer]

TEP

Thanks for the fine description.

I just found a picture of the 10th on Caddybytes.com

http://www.caddybytes.com/virtualtours/Riviera/slides/Par4_10th.html

The green does look as though it’s got a short skirt and that bump on the greeen between the front and rear end looks almost erotic – I didn’t spot the cigarette butt though.

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