Guess what the Curtis Cuppers thought ...

[Tom_Doak]

... was the easiest hole at Pacific Dunes?

Actually, not what they said was the easiest, but which hole gave up the most birdies and the least big numbers?

I was shocked by the answer, which is very instructive about the balance of risk and reward, and of the differences between the best male and female players.

[Tim Pitner]

Hole No. 6.  

[Thomas_Brown]

15?

[Tom_Doak]

It was indeed number six.  There were eight or nine threes there in eighteen matches, and only ONE double bogey.

For those players it was just a straightforward drive and pitch.  All of them could carry the bunker on the right, and few of them could drive long enough to wind up low left; so they just knocked it out there and hit 60-yard or 80-yard wedge shots onto the green.  No fear at all.

It was so impressive that I went out and made three this morning myself!

[Garland Bayley]

Glad to know Tom Doak is learning to play his courses from the ladies.

Is this the disadvantage of not being married to Alice Dye? You have to get women's tourneys on your courses to learn how to play them?

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:  Twenty years ago I had a couple of good friends who were Curtis Cup players, and I learned a lot by playing with them; one of them missed fewer shots in a month than Tour pros miss in a weekend.  As a group, they are remarkably consistent players, and course management is generally much better than 5-handicap guys, they rarely try to do things they aren't likely to pull off.

But I forget half of what I knew every year, and have to keep working to keep up.

I'd also forgotten how easy a links course can play when there is no wind -- not that I can play them much better, mind you.  The best example ever was a doctor from Argentina who shot 64 at Muirfield in the Open of 1980 on a calm day.  64, at Muirfield, in the Open.

I heard that one of the US Curtis Cup team had shot the same score at Pacific Dunes over the 4th of July practice session when it was dead calm, and after watching them play this weekend, it doesn't bother me a bit.  They are great players.

[ForkaB]

In my lmited exposure to PD (4 rounds) I thought that #6 was a fun hole but a pussycat.  Impossible to think about driving the green, so it was just a 230 shot off the tee and a lob wedge.  No real scary stuff up by the green, so after playing it once and seeing there be no monsters there it's a 2nd shot you can hit with confidence.

Tom

Did you even consider using that green site but making it a long par-3 from top of the ridge to the right of the fairway.  That might have been cool, I think.

[Michael Dugger]

#6 seems the hole which eats up newcomers.  Newbies are not aware of how badly you do not want to drive down to the left.  It's standard illusion......they think if there is green grass down there it must be the place to hit it.

But if they have no wedge game......at least not enough to stop it on that green (from that angle) they invariably blow it over down by #2 green.

Then suck it up coming back up, perhaps even getting a taste of the good old 'ball returning to the feet' trick.  

It's so important to play it out to the right there.  Now days, 8 rounds later, I aim right of the right hand bunker.  Over "the wall" near #9 tee isn't all that bad, at least you've positioned yourself correctly.

[Dan Herrmann]

I know the Curtis Cup players didn't play from the forward tees...  But next time you're there, check out some of the views/plays from the forward tees.

I usually walked up there with Laura and was amazed by just how different the hole could play.  These aren't just "short" tees.

Plus, there are some very nice views.

[Bill_McBride]

I had a hallucinatory experience at #6 a couple of weeks ago.  Overcooked my pitch and putted from just behind the green.  My caddy gave me a line maybe 6" left of a center slightly right pin.  I pulled the putt slightly, caught a VERY subtle ridge, and watched in horror as the putt broke left, hesitated, creeped gently, and then PLUNGED down the steep slope.  

It's an easy double from down there.  Chip it up the bank and two putt from 30', toward that slope again.  

It actually was the most shocking development since a similar miscue at #16 North Berwick West Links, when a putt swerved down into the chasm off a similar subtle slope.

[Tom Huckaby]

I ought not to be surprised - I mean this is from the man who called 16 Cypress "no big deal, simple driver to the right side"... but please.  Regardless of what these fine young ladies did, #6 PD is anything but a pussycat.

Rich forgets that the green is what, 6 paces wide at most at any given point?  And there's absolute death in the former of gaping bunker left, more subtle death in the form of a 15 foot falloff right, with the entire thing cut very very low, allowing only the most precise of pitches to find the green at all.  Sure the Curtis Cup gals have no worries - they're great at nipping 80 yard wedges off of tight lies into that extremely tight area.

I'd just defy Goodale to get down in less than 10 strokes in 4 tries from that same 80 yards, same angle.  That's 2.5 per attempt for you math challenged.  I'll take the over.

Sorry guys - I don't give a rat's ass what the Curtis Cuppers did - that remains a VERY tough green to access, from anywhere.  Yes it is interesting that the gals figured out quickly the best way to play the whole - but I believe that's just because they're great players - I doubt it has anything to do with male v. female.  It's pretty clear that you don't want to go left - you really have no chance on the pitch over the bunker - and only the longest of long can reach - so it's a simple conclusion that hitting it to the right is the best play.  What one learns over time is that there is more room to the right than there looks... and that getting close to the green may or may not be worth it - the main thing is to just play to your strongest shot because no shot into that tiny shelf is ever going to be easy.

I've never come close to driving the green - don't have the length.  I guess the best I ever did was get it up there 30 or so yards short, where I could putt... let me tell you even the PUTT up to that green was difficult.

"No real scary stuff up by the green".... good lord, the legend continues.

 

In any case, I do believe this tells more about how good players play the hole, not how females do.  No?

[Tim Pitner]

Tom D,

You gave it away somewhat by saying that it was a risk/reward hole and that you were surprised.  I've birdied the hole more times than any other hole at Pacific, but I've also suffered the pain of going left.  I imagine that the Curtis Cuppers wouldn't have too much problem hitting it to the garden spot over the bunker and to the right of the green.  From there, the approach is relatively easy; you don't have to contend with the bunker left or the slope right.  I certainly don't find the hole unchallenging.  It's a great hole.  From my experience though, one thing good women players can do is hit it to a spot and, if you can do that, No. 6 isn't difficult.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmm.... I disagree with the premise here.

I don't think macho tries at the green cause 7s there...

I just think it is a maddeningly difficult pitch.  Yes, if you go left into the bunker, that's not good.  But that can easily happen on a 2nd shot approach as well as it can from an overly macho tee shot....

TH

[George Pazin]

One of these days you guys are going to learn how much fun it is to play with decent to excellent women players.

And TD is right, they hit the ball so darned straight it's scary.

This reminds me of a very entertaining round I had with an older Irish gentleman about 8 or 9 years ago. I consistently outdrove him  with my 4 iron versus his 3 wood, yet he totally waxed me hitting 3 wood approach shots versus my short irons. Some might have been frustrated, I thought it was highly educational.

Tom, did anything else happen during the event that really surprised you? Did you get to tee it up with CST? She really hits it straight, after watching her for most of a round at the Curtis Cup at Fox Chapel a few years back.

[Eric Olsen]

I have birdied that hole several times, sticking a wedge from the right side, but it is also very easy to chunk or skull that wedge from those very tight lies.  My brother birdied it from the left bunker when the pin was up front.  Stuck it to about 6 inches.  It is a great, fun hole.  One of my favorites....

[Tim Pitner]

I just think it is a maddeningly difficult pitch.  Yes, if you go left into the bunker, that's not good.  But that can easily happen on a 2nd shot approach as well as it can from an overly macho tee shot....

Tom H,

From straight on, yes, but not if you play your drive toward the right.  From that angle, it flattens out and there's almost a little runway there to the green.  The left bunker really shouldn't be in play.  Of course, I can only manage to hit it to that area 1 out of every 2 or 3 times.  

[Tom Huckaby]

redanman - well there's no doubt about that.  And that was the expected answer if and when Goodale ever sees this.

BUT...I was also heartened to see many of the Curtis Cuppers screw up the same sort of pitches I do at Bandon... of course they had far more pressure, but still... there were some awful ones shown in the TV coverage on 16 and 18.

In any case, seriously, I have a pretty damn good short game.  I am not all that proficient hitting precise wedges off of tight lies, however.  Not many Americans are - we don't get the practice.  So for normal golfers, well.... I feel confident in saying that's a very tough pitch into #6 PD, damn near as tough as that into #14 BT.  And that's why they're both great holes - and no way is either a "pussycat" in any way shape or form.

The bet stands for you, btw.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

I just think it is a maddeningly difficult pitch.  Yes, if you go left into the bunker, that's not good.  But that can easily happen on a 2nd shot approach as well as it can from an overly macho tee shot....

Tom H,

From straight on, yes, but not if you play your drive toward the right.  From that angle, it flattens out and there's almost a little runway there to the green.  The left bunker really shouldn't be in play.  Of course, I can only manage to hit it to that area 1 out of every 2 or 3 times.  

Tim - understood - BUT - I'd say even from the right it's still a quite difficult pitch with a very small margin for error.  I witnessed MANY shots miss to the right, coming from the right... miss by a foot and you're down the hill.

Pussycat?  No way.  Not from any angle.  I guess it's not insanely difficult from the right, but the bet with Goodale takes place from there and I still feel damn good about the over.  But btw, we want a back pin for that.

 

[Brent Hutto]

One of these days you guys are going to learn how much fun it is to play with decent to excellent women players.

And TD is right, they hit the ball so darned straight it's scary.

Not to get too analytical about it but one interesting thing about playing with women who are very good golfers is that you can learn exactly what benefits there are to accuracy and control of the golf ball versus the benefits of power.

The best male players I've encountered hit the ball a long way. Wedges into Par 4's, reaching most of the Par 5's in two, short irons into 150-175 yard Par 3's. So when you play with most plus-handicap young men these days you're seeing the benefits of being able to overpower many holes combined with precision and control. Very impressive.

A couple of times I've played with plus-handicap young women players and while they hit the ball much further than I do, they aren't going to hit many wedges into Par 4's and reaching a Par 5 in two is a big deal (when playing from the men's tees). Long Par 3's need five-woods or three-woods. They do not get as many easy birdie chances per round as good male players but they can pick apart a course with their accuracy and hit lots of greens in regulation and almost never leave a difficult up-and-down for par.

I actually find it much more impressive to play with someone who can hit a 240-yard drive on the longest Par 4 on the course and follow it with a pinpoint five-wood shot to fifteen feet below the hole than seeing a bomber play the same hole with a 280-yard artillery shot off the tee and follow it with a pitching wedge to eight feet. I can at least imagine emulating the former one day if I really work on my game and making two perfect swing. The 280-yard drive and 150-yard wedge aren't even the same game that I play.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I find 6 to be drivable in the winter wind or no wind. I drove up to the base of the green July 4th week with minimal wind. The trick is to stay toward the green or right. Left is dead. I am not surprised in those conditions. toss in a 4 club wind and the trap on the right become real.

[JohnV]

Brent, one of the fun things about the two years I spent working on the Futures Tour was being able to setup courses so that they played the way the architect intended them rather than just pushing the tees all the way back as is done for the men.

One other issue was the way some people setup courses for the women that they take the tees back so far that they lose the options.  There were a couple of times where some of the other rules staff wanted to push it back because the hole was short and I was able to convince them that it was a better hole by playing it at a distance where the players would have all the options that had been designed in.  This usually resulted in much more interesting tournaments and holes.

[Tom_Doak]

George:  I did play the front nine with Carol Semple Thompson on Monday before heading to Bend.  A great honor and a fun round.  I even won a hole or two, but would easily have lost over the nine if we'd been scoring.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

I'd have to agree with Rich Goodale.

I didn't find # 6 overly difficult, or difficult.

Absent a ferocious wind, a drive down the right side over any trouble leaves a relatively benign approach, and, even if you hit it left, while the angle of attack is more difficult, coming in to almost any green with a short iron doesn't present an overly difficult task to most good players, let alone great players.

But, I don't think it's the purpose of every hole to provide an overwhelming challenge, and that task is certainly made more difficult by inceasing length and improved trajectory afforded by hi-tech advances in equipment.

I found it interesting that Mike Keiser singled out the 13th hole.

I found that to be one of the best holes in the complex and certainly a world class par 4.

TEPaul and I discussed that hole, its green and possibly extending that green north.

It's the kind of hole that infuses the element of pressure to any golfer playing it, AND, if playing under tournament conditions, that pressure is heightened.

The stretch of # 11, # 12 and # 13 is one of my favorites in golf.

[Joel_Stewart]

It all depends on the pin positions and the tees.   Does anyone know if they played the back or front tees for the Curtis Cup?

[Tom Jefferson]

Joel;
If memory serves, #6 played at 297 yards.  I believe it was in the back section of the tee area normally used for the green markers.

Tom

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