Oakmont's #12

[TEPaul]

This massive par 5 just may have the most "in balance" mutiple option strategies of any golf hole I've ever seen, particularly if one manages to hit a decent drive.

It'll play for the US Open at 667 and if this hole tempts Tiger and company to actually try to reach the green (or somewhere surrounding it ) in two shots (which it probably will be able to do if the course is as firm and fast as it was the other day) I'll consider it even better than I already do. There are so many amazing things going on with this hole from tee all the way to hole-out I don't even no where to begin.

[wsmorrison]

I hope he doesn't aim at the left rear corner on his approach

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The 16th at Pine Tree plays to 666 to 670 and the 5th at Pine Tree plays to about 620, yet, far more may be going on on
# 5 than on # 16 due to the architectural features, their orientations, and, the wind.

At 670 yards, a drive of 250, with a three wood of 230, leaves a 190 yard approach shot.

Basically, three superior long clubs are required just to reach the putting surface.

I don't know how much can go on archhitecturally when the pressure to hit long shots is THE overriding factor in the play of the hole.

I think one of the failings of GCA.com is the tendency to view golf issues in the sole context of the PGA Tour Pro's game.

Having said all of the above, what alternatives or options does the average 0 to 6 handicap have when playing that hole ?

They have to hit a 250 yard drive, a 230 yard three wood and a 190 yard long iron, or, rely on chipping/pitching and putting to get a par, with no hope of a birdie.

I'm curious to understand the context in which you praise the hole.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

There is no comparison in variety of shot values between Oakmont's #12 and either par 5 at Pine Tree for the simple reason that Oakmont's #12 has so much magnificent raw topography of all kinds of slopes and cants on the hole that can promote shooting the ball down and around that hole. All of this just plays heavily into experience and concentration.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with either par 5 at Pine Tree, and I realize the architectural features and their placement may be as good as they can be but Pine Tree is a flat site and Oakmont's #12 is anything but that.

For higher handicappers, it appears to me there are also all kinds of multiple options even if they may be very different than those of a better or longer player.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I don't know about you, but for me, having to consecutively hit a 250 yard drive, a 230 yard three wood and a 190 yard 3-iron doesn't leave much room for tactics or strategy, especially if I also have to contend with unusual topography and wind.

For PGA Tour Pro's, I'm sure they'll have far more options.

But, for the average to good player, I don't see an abundance strategy in 670 yard holes.

[JESII]

Is this the same guy that's always crying about his 15 handicap friends hitting the ball 280 yards with today's equipment? Or the guy with the 62 year old friends that play some of the classic old courses of the world and are able to render the architectural features obsolete due to how far they hit the ball.

On this particular hole a 250 drive is probably equivalent to a 220 drive on a flat relatively soft site. I understand the merit of designing holes that challenge their game and even enhance their chances against longer players, but do they all have to?

[wsmorrison]

Patrick,

Although I played the hole poorly (but overall pretty darn well) the topography and bunkering combined to really make a player think about strategy and how to play the hole.  Given that a lot of bunkers at Oakmont exact nearly a one shot penalty (and a cross bunker on 12 in particular) there is an awful lot to consider and you better consider it carefully.  The hole is a lot more than a slog and executing 250 drive (its downhill so the ball will likely travel much futher for a good player), 230 second and long approach.  The pros will have options and the beauty will be to see how they prioritize them in their decision making process.  The hole is not straight away so angles constantly interplay with bunkering and fairway contours.  There is a lot to think about with length being just one factor.

[JohnV]

Tom, Last I heard they are only going to use the 667 tee for 2 rounds and use the "forward" tee at about 602 yards the other two.  The 667 tee is actually the back tee for #10 so they will alternate which hole that tee is used for over the four rounds.

It should be interesting.  I bet a number of players get there in 2, but I also bet that very few of them actually end up the green given the way it slopes to the back right.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I don't know about you, but for me, having to consecutively hit a 250 yard drive, a 230 yard three wood and a 190 yard 3-iron doesn't leave much room for tactics or strategy, especially if I also have to contend with unusual topography and wind."

Patrick:

Which hole are you speaking of?

Did you hear me saying that Oakmont's #12 must be played by a 250 yard drive, a 230 yard 3-wood and a 190 yard third shot or are you speaking of some other hole, such as perhaps one of Pine Tree's par 5s?

Please don't assign to me something I didn't remotely say or imply, particularly about a hole on a course you have never seen or played.  

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

I did hear they plan to mix up the tees for the Open which will be about a 70 yard difference. That sure will be beautiful as there is very little question, given all that is going on with that hole, that those Open contestants will pretty much need to come to understand and deal with the intracacies of basically two holes in one.  

On the other hand, I'd recommend that they play #4 from the new tips every day. If they play that one from any of the old tees most of today's pros will probably kill it.

#9 transtioned from a short par 5 down to a par 4 from the tips will be good too given what goes on in that green, the bunker greenside right, and the fall-off right.

If the Open at Oakmont gets lucky and they get the type of firm and fast conditions everyone would like, I see those contestants playing that course a lot like they played Hoylake----eg just try to get into position off the tees and into position on or around those greens despite where some pins are.

Given those conditons (firm and fast) I wouldn't expect any sane Open competitor to think much about pin-hunting on most of those holes at Oakmont, just like few went pin-hunting at Hoylake with that architecture and with those firm and fast conditions.  

[Ryan Farrow]

I just played the back 9 last Monday and I did not have a good experience on #12. Of course I managed to find both cross bunkers and ended up with only a double that hole . I think the big question for the pros is if they can carry the first cross bunker. If they manage to do so it should be reachable for most of the field. The fairways are nice and firm right now and barring a week of rain before the open they will still be playing firm.

I would also like to give an honorable mention to #10 which also ate me alive. But the fairway contours on that hole are incredible. And try not to miss right!

All in all Oakmont is a picture perfect example of how a golf course does not have to be brown to play firm and fast.

[Kyle Harris]

Ryan,

What type of grass is Oakmont using?

The browness is largely dependent on type of grass.

[T_MacWood]

When did they add a crossbunker on #12?

[Bill_McBride]

Tom MacWood: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4488

It's really more of a fairway bunker you have to carry from that back tee, unless Scott Burrough's aerial (see link above) has been superceded.

That is hysterical that the back tee for #12 is by the back tee for #10.  I played the course maybe ten times when I had a client who was a member.  We always played #11 and turned RIGHT.  The 10th tee wasn't even in your dreams at that point!    I think the hole was about 560, which was a good distance given the fallaway green where your approach had to land 30 yards out in front.  These back tees at Oakmont (#4 the other example) just point out yet again how ridiculous the distances are today.

And yes, that's just for the 0.1% who play in U.S. Opens, but that's who the top courses have to challenge.

The very soul of golf is shrieking -- for a competition ball!  

[T_MacWood]

Thanks Bill, that is what I thought....I was wondering if they made more changes.

The hole ONLY played to around 600 yards from the tips when I played there a few years ago! Of course I got nowhere near that tee as I walked forward to the tees I felt comfortable playing...not really that comfortable...nothing is comfortable at Oakmont and thats the way they like it. It is interesting to note that most of the long holes play down hill, if not completely down hill a good portion down hill.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

There may be some bunkers or whatnot added recently and perhaps with a view to US Open Competitors, but without first completely analyzing the old aerial or a Fownes era aerial the only one I'm aware of at the moment is about 20-30 yards almost directly in front of the opening into the 2nd green. It is a very good one that should not ever come much  into play for most golfers playing that short hole but it is such and placed such that it will make Open competitors think more about the risk of just driving the ball right in front of that green.

As far as the length of #12---with the conditions we saw there on Wednesday and at 600 yards it does not play anything like that length on a hole of flatter ground. I'm not long at all and I hit a good drive left and around the first fairway bunker on the right, a 4 iron over the cross bunker on the left and short of the bunkers on the right and a wedge onto the green.

The interesting thing about that hole is even at 667 from basically the 10th tee, given those conditions the Open Competitors off a good drive probably will be tempted to reach in two but there are all kinds of risks along the way and on and around the green to do that.

[TEPaul]

Matter of fact, and I've been thinking hard about this---Oakmont the way it is now, which I assume (since the Open is less than a year away) is the architecture it will take into the Open, I would challenge anyone thinking of screaming about how they have done something improper architecturally to the golf course to explain and justify why specifically they may say that or think that.

The course we played on Wednesday is the architecture the course will have for the US Open. What we did not see is the US Open rough.

Actually there were 2-3 "test" holes out there that we were told are of US Open type rough and we were told #12 was one of them. Our hosts mentioned that those "test" holes with US Open rough were incredibly tough and dangerous compared to the rest. But when we got to #12 (and the other "test" holes) the US Open rough had been mowed back down to match the rest of the course.  

But for old Wayno Morrison, who likes to rip the shit out of everything he hits, that didn't matter at all---he lost his tee shot anyway!  

[wsmorrison]

"But for old Wayno Morrison, who likes to rip the shit out of everything he hits, that didn't matter at all---he lost his tee shot anyway!  "

Yep, I lost a ball on 12 and it likely didn't have anything to do with the deep rough but rather those 50 foot trees to the right of the deep rough.  Now, Tommy.  Aren't you going to be balanced and talk about my tee shot on 1 (let's forget my 60 degree wedge approach that kept feeding off the green left) or my Floppy McChockelson on 16?

[TEPaul]

OK;

On #1, a hole measuring 482 yards, and right out of the box with nary a practice shot, Old Wayno Morrison rips the shit out of a drive of about 350 yards. That left Musclehead Morrison with a 60 degree wedge to the green from whatever yardage but of course he totally failed to notice the green cants severely right to left and he hit the green left and the ball rolled directly off and into the rough.

They say there are no trees left on the course on the clubhouse side of the road. Oh yeah, well somehow Bicep Brain Morrison found a bunch of them somewhere far out to the right of #12.

Old Wayno also needs a brief lesson in height estimation too or else for some odd reason he decided it would be a cool thing to visit every single church pew type bunker along the right side of that fairway.

Belay that, the line of bunkers along the right of the fairway on #5 really aren't chuch pews, they are more of the style of barcaloungers with the foot rest all the way up and the seat all the way down.

Who know, maybe Old Wayno Morrison is just out of shape and felt like he needed a brief respite in every single one of them.

However, on #6 and #13 and from the neighborhood of 190-194 he did launch two 6 irons a mile in the sky and directly on line that must've made those eggs think momentarily of being hole-in-one trophies to spend the rest of their days promeniently displayed on a beautiful case or shelf somewhere.

[wsmorrison]

Now that was balanced.  Less Dan Rather and more Fox News  

[TEPaul]

Catch the rest.

But Wayne, did you not realize that the great players follow a bad shot with birdie and a great shot with a number of other great shots?

Your Floppy McChokelstein pitch on #16 was magnificent but Floppy does not generally follow-up something like that by bombing a driver on the next hole clear into the next county somewhere to the north and then following that up by the total shank of his host's 3 or 4 iron.

But guys, Wayno's round at the very tough Oakmont from the tip tees really was a fine round that included both the sublime and the ridiculous.

[wsmorrison]

Floppy has corporate tents and crowds to deflect his wayward shots.  I never should have brought driver to the 17th tee---that was plain dumb.  And you have to admit, that was one ugly 3-iron with a flare on the fat topline....ugh it hurt my Hogan blade sensibilities.  In any case...that's my high standard deviation--look like a pro on one shot and a Ravi Shanker on the next.  Same with my round to round scoring.  I am a high standard deviation kind of guy...Arnoldo Palmero to your Fred Funkmaster

[TEPaul]

Wayno:

It is not common practice to even mention words like "high deviation" or "shank" around golfers and golf courses. They say the Golf Gods might hear that and think it's some kind of request or something.

So that really horrible shot you hit low and dead right next off #17 tee with Studer's 3 iron should not be referred to as either a shank or high deviation. Who knows, with some of the places and pickles you seem to get your golf ball into on some courses you may actually need to hit a shot like that on purpose somewhere and someday.

[wsmorrison]

Like Protagoras in 411 BC, I turn my back to the golf golds.  They have their fun tempting me with great play only to take joy in my follies a shot, a hole, or a round later.

Or As Bruce said, in Bruce Almighty I say to the golf gods:

"Smite me Oh mighty smiters!"  

Next time we play, you just might not want to walk down the fairway with me...or likely you'll be safe in the fairway with your boring down the middle beauty while I search the hinterlands for my wayward pill.

[wsmorrison]

Here are a couple of poor representations of the 12th at Oakmont (from 2 years ago) and a fairly recent aerial photograph.  The bunkering has been revised some--I wish I had a current aerial.  The bunkers seem deeper and the use of fescues is quite good.  

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