Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Getting the read from a beginner is akin to taking a five-year-old to the movies for the first time. They are simply in awe of the surroundings and all the hoopla. Ditto beginners at courses.

You need to have a better grasp in inserting folks into the picture. Beginners are often clueless on any meaningful detail save for the food & drink at the turn they scoff down.

P.S. I value Wyncote a good bit among eastern Pennsy public choices.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Getting the read from a beginner is akin to taking a five-year-old to the movies for the first time. They are simply in awe of the surroundings and all the hoopla. Ditto beginners at courses.

You need to have a better grasp in inserting folks into the picture. Beginners are often clueless on any meaningful detail save for the food & drink at the turn they scoff down.

P.S. I value Wyncote a good bit among eastern Pennsy public choices.

It was a comment on the style of course, not the quality, Matt. If a beginning golfer loses a lot of golf balls, they ain't coming back. Period. Jeffersonville does not lend itself to lost golf balls, Lederach does. A beginner also has a better shot at a "lucky" first par or bogey at Jeffersonville.

Wyncote is a favorite of mine, and I have some dear memories (broke 80 for the first time in tournament play there back in 1999) but as per the Doak scale, not something I'd drive 2 hours to see (and it's close from where I am), hence the Doak 5.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Plenty of beginners overdose on Bethpage Black -- trust me --I've played behind them many times. The idea that beginners "get it" and understand as Clint would say "their limitations" isn't necessarily so.

Partner, do yourself a favor -- concede the obvious. It makes it easier to have a dialogue. Beginners are clueless -- have no idea on what is being sought when they do play and frankly are often more interested in the esoteric type stuff -- the cart girl, was the beer cold, etc, etc.

Regarding Lederach and lost balls -- I don't see it that way.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Plenty of beginners overdose on Bethpage Black -- trust me --I've played behind them many times. The idea that beginners "get it" and understand as Clint would say "their limitations" isn't necessarily so.

Partner, do yourself a favor -- concede the obvious. It makes it easier to have a dialogue. Beginners are clueless -- have no idea on what is being sought when they do play and frankly are often more interested in the esoteric type stuff -- the cart girl, was the beer cold, etc, etc.

Regarding Lederach and lost balls -- I don't see it that way.

So, tell me where I said beginner's "get it?"

I see forced carries at 2, 4, 6, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 17, not to mention water features on 1, 5, 9, and 18 that would come into play. By comparison, the nature of the forced carries at Jeffersonville are small creeks and one small pond. That's the only comparison I wanted to show.

I've made no statement about anything else.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

YOU inserted the beginners into the argument in order to demonstrate some aspect of added playability at Jeffersonville.

Quote ...
"In comparison, I've taken several beginning golfers to Jeffersonville and all have liked the experience as their first time on a golf course."

Beginners have no standing in my mind. Whatever comments they utter is on par with the guys in the deep left field seats in Yankee Stadium who PRESUME they know more about b-ball than Joe Torre.

I can take beginners to any number of places where the slopes and CR vary big time and they may equally gush on and on about whatever strikes their fancy -- from the quality of the range balls -- the size of the chest from cart girl Suzy, to the beer being just right, and so forth and so on.

Kyle -- I respect your opinion -- you are pushing it though. Back away from the beginner drivel and stick to what YOU KNOW. Your eye is bit more tuned to the major items that are often discussed here on GCA.

Firing back another salvo defending the insertion of beginners will only cause me to say adios amigo partner because it has no meaning or relevance.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

You asked for a comparison, and then told me to do it as I pleased.

"Knock yourself out, anyway you wish," were your words.

I did. I am working under the assumption that you've never seen Jeffersonville before and I figured that would help you get a feel for the place. It's a bit more "user friendly."

I know they've enjoyed their experience because they've said so. They weren't gushing about anything architecturally, they just had fun, which is after all, the point of the golf course.

If you don't find that relevant, fine, but please just state that (you just did) and move on.

I appreciate your respect and am looking forward to your comments on my comparisons. I'm actually a bit surprised you've never been to Jeffersonville.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

I said knock YOURSELF out.

I presume English is spoken in your part of Pennsy.

I ASKED Y-O-U -- for YOUR analysis -- not Joe Sixpack who is clueless. Asking random people off the street about anything is frankly a big waste of time. There are many clowns -- who play Bethpage who are beginners and the range of opinions is worthless because they have no background or basis for any conclusions -- it's surface level gut oriented drivel.

I would think the smart guy you are would get that much at least.

Beginners don't where to start or end on what it is that strikes their fancy. Stay with what YOU KNOW or can OPINE on directly.

[Kyle Harris]

Apologies for my loose and irresponsible interpretation of your request.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Tell you what -- I'll be happy to join you for golf at Jeffersonville if my schedule permits sometime in September.

At that point we can compare notes.

Let me know if that works.

P.S. Just one condition -- no beginners in the group !

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Regarding Lederach and lost balls -- I don't see it that way.

Matt-

  I'm jumping in for my little buddy.

I love Lederach--it's thought-provoking and probably the best overall test of golf for my money currently, but your statement doesn't hold water.  Period.  
OB, or areas with wetlands and densely clustered brush (read: lost ball) exists on 1,2,3,4,6,8,9,11,18.  That's a lot.  Granted, in some of those cases, you have to hit a really piss-poor shot, but it happens.  In some of those cases, you can hit a decent shot, but get a bad bounce one way or another and be totally f**ked--the ball kicks directly right or left into red stakes.  This has happened to me several times coming into #6 green.  Maybe you find it, maybe you don't.  Either way, it's a pain in the a** and disheartening, at that.  
This actually is my main question against Lederach--a lot of it works so well, as far as the overall architecture, but I don't know how well if it were very fast and firm, with the opportunity for the ball to get a bad bounce and disappear in a hazard so frequently.  

In contrast, it's harder to lose a ball at Jeffersonville.  Back on the other side of the Delaware, Royce Brook comes to mind--in many cases, it's hard to lose a ball there, although the terrain, architecture, and maintenance contribute to this as well.  

Look, if there's internal OB or whatever, fine.  Give me my penalty.  But it's a pain in the a** to have to dig into the bag for another ball and reload, and golf balls are expensive.  It's no fun to lose them.  

That was a funny statement from you, considering you hit a few(?) drives OB at GCGC before finding the fairway and calling it "an easy driving course".  

Would you say Lederach as a course would be a fair comparison somewhat with Royce Brook, as a far as a moderately high-end public course?  

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Tell you what -- I'll be happy to join you for golf at Jeffersonville if my schedule permits sometime in September.

At that point we can compare notes.

Let me know if that works.

P.S. Just one condition -- no beginners in the group !

September works best, actually. I guess that means no Doug..  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Kyle:

Tell you what -- I'll be happy to join you for golf at Jeffersonville if my schedule permits sometime in September.

At that point we can compare notes.

Let me know if that works.

P.S. Just one condition -- no beginners in the group !

September works best, actually. I guess that means no Doug..  

2 & 1

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Tell you what -- I'll be happy to join you for golf at Jeffersonville if my schedule permits sometime in September.

At that point we can compare notes.

Let me know if that works.

P.S. Just one condition -- no beginners in the group !

September works best, actually. I guess that means no Doug..  

2 & 1

8 shots

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Kyle:

Tell you what -- I'll be happy to join you for golf at Jeffersonville if my schedule permits sometime in September.

At that point we can compare notes.

Let me know if that works.

P.S. Just one condition -- no beginners in the group !

September works best, actually. I guess that means no Doug..  

2 & 1

8 shots

Hey, that was when you could be counted on to shoot somewhere less than 120, after ESC  

[Craig_Rokke]

Nice comparison, Kyle. Jeffersonville is definitely more beginner-friendly, and it has an undeniable ambiance/charm, and several really good holes. Ron Prichard's work there definitely improved it substantially. Still, Lederach noses it out in my opinion.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

I'm generally available after the Labor Day time period.

Doug:

Royce Brook is a good bit more pricey than Lederach and Lederach is superior to Royce Brook East which remains the public option at the Somerville facility.The West is now only open to corporate groups and the like.

Lederach seems pricey to people in Pennsy who have been born with this permanent idea on the brain that $10 green fees are still the norm. The same mentality that believes gas is still a $1.25 per gallon.

Doug -- I'm not buying this idea that lost balls are frequent at Lederach. You DO HAVE TO HIT A PISS POOR SHOT. Guess what partner -- if that happens so be it. Make it a point not to play Dunluce at Royal Portrush because you'll be really screaming with what happens there.

Don't know what you mean concerning my comments on GCGC. Please refresh my memory with a bit more detail.

What's soooooo amusing is that when you have a very talented architect like Kelly Blake Moran create a course with all the items that people GUSH ABOUT on this site ad naseum and then complain about what happens after you play there.

Guys, wake up -- the layout is superb and if firm and fast become the rule and not the exception it will vastly improve the low level stuff that too often parades itself as good public golf in the Keystone State.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Doug -- I'm not buying this idea that lost balls are frequent at Lederach. You DO HAVE TO HIT A PISS POOR SHOT. Guess what partner -- if that happens so be it. Make it a point not to play Dunluce at Royal Portrush because you'll be really screaming with what happens there.

Don't know what you mean concerning my comments on GCGC. Please refresh my memory with a bit more detail.

Matt-

  Sorry, but it's true.  Ask Kyle-he's played with me on two of my rounds there.  I've had several well-struck shots kick right or left right into a hazard. This is what I mean by disheartening.  
  Look, I don't mind playing a course where the ball dives into the rough on a fast and form course--say, one of the local Flynn courses, or Red Course, or whatever, I can deal with that.  I'm just saying that it starts to wear on you when it's like, "oh, f**k, red stakes again".  I'd rather the challenge of having a pitch and putt for par after recovery rather than an automatic double.  Especially when a round is going well.  
  I'm of two minds on this, and I have started to rethink my strategy on #6, for example--go in with wedge, coming as close to the "Poconoization" as possible while staying in the fairway.
  Having said that, it's a fun golf course to play when everything is firing on all cylinders-like I said, it's thought-provoking, challenging, and it's the best test of golf for my dollar currently.   It's not as fun when you're hitting it crooked (like I do, from time to time) and every poor shot is an automatic double.  

I do concur with you on an earlier topic--I don't mind the service offered--again, if you don't need it, simply say "No Thank You", and carry on with your business.  It's a lot nicer than at BSP where you want to tell the grizzled starters to go f**k themselves.  The staff there is very, very good, I've noted an absence of attitude and b.s., and they have gone out of their way for me, and undoubtedtly others as well.  

Having said that, and good-naturedly, I'll play you there sometime.  

Winner gets dinner at Panorama for two, complete with wine  

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Maybe I'm missing something because the Lederach I visisted has sufficient width to avoid all but the most poorly of played shots. That doesn't mean you get a free pass when you miss that badly.

The sad truth is that too many Pennsy public golfers have overdosed on the bland and boring layouts that dominate the landscape. Here you have a very talented architect like Moran and he provides a wealth of detail into this layout.

What's even more amusing is the negative comments about Lederach but if people were to insert one of the more noted / classic courses that often get a free pass here on GCA the gushing would be the equivalent of a waterfall.

Doug -- if you think Lederach is that penal then by all means DO NOT go across the pond and play any of the more noted courses there -- especiall the ones where driving the ball is a absolute must (e.g. Dunluce at Royal Portrush, County Down Championship, etc, etc).

Regarding a game -- always interested in any action.  

[Matt_Ward]

One of the main issues associated with Lederach and the Pennsy public golf scene has been the issue of costs. I have to wonder how much of an issue is price versus the opportunity to sample a layout that provides a wealth of superb design features?

I believe the general public can be convinced of what Lederach offers -- no less what Rustic Canyon and Barona Creek have done in the SoCal area.

In sum, does the price component outweigh the design quality?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

To answer your question, yes. Many people think Center Valley is a good design. They're busy and, unbelievably, haven't built a permanent clubhouse since they opened more than 10 years ago. CV is probably at the high end of the acceptable price point. That's why the Hickory Valleys, Mainlands, Center Squares, Limekilns, Pickering Valleys are very busy with lower price points.
What's even more interesting is the former General Washington now know as Shannondell. It was recently renovated and has become very popular, according to my barber. Lederach is a refreshing change of pace in design with good price points. Whether it catches on despite it's perceived difficulty remains to be seen.

Have you played the 2 other newer courses around- Bella Vista and Olde Homestead? If so what are your impressions?

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I've played Olde Homestead in New Tripoli BUT before they made some internal changes to the routing. I played the original 18 and it has some interesting twists and turns but I would not make a special visit to play the place from North Jersey.

Have not played Bella Vista. Is it much better than Olde Homestead?

P.S. I do believe what Lederach provides will be sufficient to give it a needed branding boost from the other dull public layouts that inhabit the region.

[Kyle Harris]

In sum, does the price component outweigh the design quality?

In the short term, probably not. There is a sense of adventure that comes with playing a new layout, and I think most golfers are willing to shell out a bit more.

If the "wow" factor is strong enough, they'll come back.

If not, back to the routine and cheap.

What is routine and cheap depends on where the "bar" is set. Right now, in Eastern PA, it isn't terribly high. Hopefully with this latest golf surge the bar can be raised a bit and the market a bit saturated as such.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt

To answer your question, yes. Many people think Center Valley is a good design. They're busy and, unbelievably, haven't built a permanent clubhouse since they opened more than 10 years ago. CV is probably at the high end of the acceptable price point. That's why the Hickory Valleys, Mainlands, Center Squares, Limekilns, Pickering Valleys are vey busy with lower price points.
What's even more interesting is the former General Washington now know as Shannondell. It was recently renovated and has become very popular, according to my barber. Lederach is a refreshing change of pace in design with good price points. Whether it catches on despite it's perceived difficulty remains to be seen.

Have you played the 2 other newer courses around- Bella Vista and Olde Homestead? If so what are your impressions?

Steve

I know you directed this to Matt, but I'll field it as well.

Both are quite good in my opinion and definitely a step up from Mainland and all the rest you listed.

Coincidentally, both are by the "blue collar" Jim Blaukovitch, and both are on the more difficult end of his work. He builds some great par 3s and 5s that are in evidence at both courses.

The Par 5 16th at Olde Homestead is one of my favorites.  

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

If you favor the work of blue collar oriented Jim B then make a side trip to Stone Hedge (Tunckhannock Twsp.) -- right up your alley -- solid design and the price is quite right for those Pennsy folks who have the short arms and deep pockets.

Not you, of course, Kyle.

P.S. I'd put the uphill 2nd hole on my short list of top Pennsy public holes. A real muscle type hole for sure.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

If you favor the work of blue collar oriented Jim B then make a side trip to Stone Hedge (Tunckhannock Twsp.) -- right up your alley -- solid design and the price is quite right for those Pennsy folks who have the short arms and deep pockets.

Not you, of course, Kyle.

P.S. I'd put the uphill 2nd hole on my short list of top Pennsy public holes. A real muscle type hole for sure.

Blaukavitch polarizes me. I either like his work (Bella Vista, Olde Homestead, some of Island Green) or REALLY dislike his work (Riverview, Honeybrook).

You're not the first to tell me about Stone Hedge and I will get up there eventually.