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Andy Hughes

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Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #125 on: August 02, 2006, 02:53:07 PM »
Quote
I played the RTJ classic course there and am planning to return as soon as the heat leaves the area.

Ah ha! Another blast from my youthful past.  This was always considered one of the special 'treats' to play, so we never missed a tournament at Tamiment.

I know Matt'll rupture an intestine laughing at me, but there are courses there that could be fun and well-designed with some minimal effort.  
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Craig_Rokke

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Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #126 on: August 02, 2006, 03:06:15 PM »
My want-to-play list includes Stonehedge, Great Bear, Glenbrook, and Water Gap.

Anyone know anything about Tyoga and its 1923 heritage?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #127 on: August 02, 2006, 03:19:10 PM »
My want-to-play list includes Stonehedge, Great Bear, Glenbrook, and Water Gap.

Anyone know anything about Tyoga and its 1923 heritage?

Craig,

I can recommend the first two heartily, the third with minor reservations that I think you won't care about, the 4th to anyone who really loves some quirky stuff which I know you do so I'd say go for it and report back your findings.   I know that at least some of us here love to debate Pocono golf stuff.

Never played Tyoga...understand that most of what's there now is Ed Ault which hasn't had me too excited to make that trek.

Andy Hughes

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Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #128 on: August 02, 2006, 03:41:17 PM »
Craig, if you do play Water Gap and/or Glenbrook, please take and post some pictures.  I would love to see them.

Where is Tyoga? I have never heard of it.
nevermind, found their site online.

And Mike? You know what you can do with your 'minor reservations' re Glenbrook?  Its a frickin Doak 8, and don't you forget it!  ;D
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 03:53:47 PM by Andy Hughes »
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Matt_Ward

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #129 on: August 02, 2006, 06:16:04 PM »
Craig, Mike, Andy, et al:

Can anyone speak to the issue if Stone Hedge actually has a clubhouse. I had made my way to Tunckhannock Twsp at least three times and the SAME shed was still there masquerading as a pseudo clubhouse.

I like certain aspects of Stone Hedge -- the 2nd hole as to be the most demanding uphill par-4 you can play in Pennsy public golf -- given what a lame first hole you have there.

Stone Hedge was done well by architect Jim Blaukovitch (forgive my tortured spelling). The par-5's are also done well with the downhill 3rd, the 9th and the well done 12th.

Great Bear is simply a major step from the fast food garbage that operates as golf in the region. Too bad it is now a private layout.

Glenbrook is as Mike described. It's quirky Poconos golf at its best ::) (can that really mean anything?).

Regarding places like Water Gap, Fernwood and all the rest -- it's far easier on your time and wallet to just go to the local driving range. They are imminently forgettable.

Like I said for the Poconos to have anything close to a rebirth they need a combo of two items -- a Marshall-like Plan and amnesia on what things have been.

Andy Hughes

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Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #130 on: August 02, 2006, 06:25:14 PM »
Quote
Can anyone speak to the issue if Stone Hedge actually has a clubhouse.

Matt, sorry, I left 20-odd years ago and to be honest I have never even heard of Stone Hedge. Though a shed as the clubhouse sounds a-ok with me (and I will overlook your Glenbrook slur.  We all have our blind spots and I learned yours a while ago ;))
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Matt_Ward

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #131 on: August 02, 2006, 06:30:11 PM »
Andy:

Head to Tunckhannock Twsp because Stone Hedge isn't that bad of a golf offering -- far better than many with bigger ad budgets in the eastern half of the state.

Craig_Rokke

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Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #132 on: August 02, 2006, 07:03:34 PM »
Got two more obscure up-staters I'm wondering about: the 1927 Towanda, and Cliff Park in GC, a 9 holer in Milford, apparently built by a Scot in the 1920's. Anyone play either?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 07:43:07 PM by Craig_Rokke »

Matt_Ward

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #133 on: August 02, 2006, 08:03:36 PM »
Craig:

Played them years ago -- can tell you this -- I wasn't exactly chomping at the bit to return.

Craig -- keep Stone Hedge on the listing -- it will certainly surprise you in spots. The step-up in terms of intensity from the 1st to 2nd holes is a sure fire JOLT.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #134 on: August 02, 2006, 08:29:05 PM »
Anybody ever played Galen Hall in Wernesville, PA  (Berks County).  Apparently Tillie had a hand in its design.

Here's a Logan review: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/columnists/joe_logan/14593250.htm
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 08:33:15 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Kyle Harris

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #135 on: August 02, 2006, 08:41:15 PM »
Anybody ever played Galen Hall in Wernesville, PA  (Berks County).  Apparently Tillie had a hand in its design.

Here's a Logan review: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/columnists/joe_logan/14593250.htm

Yup, played it right before Logan's review.

Tillie added 9 in the twenties (basically holes 8-16, with 17 being modified to link up with the new 16). The original nine was done by Alex Findlay.

When viewing the 8th green for the first time you're struck by the Tillinghast.

One of the Tillie Holes has a barn REAL close to the green approach and that makes for an interesting hazard. I think the fairway is cut to within a couple of paces of the barn.

It also features a Tillinghast Moat Hole at 14. The only other one I know to exist is at the Abington Club (former Old York Road Country Club, now down to 9 holes, right off Rt. 611 in Jenkintown). Here's the hole at Abington Club in the winter, but you can still see the main feature  ;)


Craig_Rokke

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Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #136 on: August 02, 2006, 08:41:36 PM »
Dan-I've played there about 8-10 times. It's a relative bargain, and fun to play. There used to be a rather large hotel there that dated from the early part of the century, but it burned down. A quirky, enjoyable, Tillinghast/Findlay
layout remains.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #137 on: August 02, 2006, 09:45:02 PM »
On some of the courses that were mentioned...

I think many on here would appreciate the weird quirkiness of Water Gap and Glenbrook more than Matt does.   I'd enjoy hearing others report.

Galen Hall - A blast, if inconsistent.  The short par four first and the rollercoaster second had me in love at first sight.  

Cliff Park - If a Scotsman came anywhere near this place to build it, it must have been because they threw him out of his native land.   Just not worth the drive, and probably a Doak 1.5.

Towanda - Never played, but not particularly intrigued based on the little I've heard.

Matt_Ward

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #138 on: August 03, 2006, 10:00:50 AM »
Don't know if this was mentioned accurately before -- the slope of Lederach is 137 and the CR is 73.9 from the tips.

Regarding the bitching and moaning from Joe Sixpack type players about not seeing their ball when it lands I think it speaks to the ignorance of those making such comments.

Lederach is in so many ways the Rustic Canyon of the northwestern suburbs of Philadelphia. As I said earlier it will be interesting to see if the firm and fast conditions can be attained as tghe turf matures.

P.S. They still need to 86 those deadly dull range balls !!!

Andy Hughes

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Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2006, 10:14:48 AM »
Quote
Head to Tunckhannock Twsp because Stone Hedge isn't that bad of a golf offering -- far better than many with bigger ad budgets in the eastern half of the state.

Matt, too bad it wasn't there 25 years ago.  Looks like a nice course.  Maybe someday I will again get to play Poconos golf.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Matt_Ward

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2006, 12:37:36 PM »
Bill:

When you say better than average -- the average in Pennsy is quite below that from my experiences. The emergence of Morgan Hill and Lederach seems to be making a statement that's far beyond just being average for the state -- but real design gems.

Matt_Ward

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #141 on: August 04, 2006, 03:23:34 PM »
Be interested in anyone can provide a course-to-course analysis between Lederach and Jeffersonville.

Thanks ...

Kyle Harris

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #142 on: August 04, 2006, 03:24:13 PM »
Matt,

How would you like it?

Hole by hole match play sort of thing?

Matt_Ward

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #143 on: August 04, 2006, 03:28:38 PM »
Knock yourself out -- anyway you wish. Just remember I'll be reviewing your answer WITH A HI-POWERED LENSE. ;D

P.S. You did give the course a Doak 6 which equates with Lederach for others.

By the way if the main claim to fame for the other course is a cheaper green fee you are setting yourself up for a grand retort on my side of the fence.

Kyle Harris

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #144 on: August 04, 2006, 03:31:27 PM »
LOL, that's not the only claim to fame there, "pardner."

And yes, I gave both a Doak 6.

Alright, give me a few minutes I'll write something up.

Have you ever been to Jeffersonville? I have a few pictures of the first few holes, but got rained out that day.

Kyle Harris

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #145 on: August 04, 2006, 04:00:52 PM »
Matt:

Here's the front nine. I spared the descriptions of Lederach for brevity's sake. The yardages are off the top of my head.

First Hole: The most demanding par 4 at Jeffersonville (before the Prichard redo, this was listed on the card as a Par 5). At roughly 440 yards and a hard dogleg left, this hole is a doozy. Bite off as much of the corner as you dare, avoiding bunkers on both sides of the landing area (both at the turn and through the turn of the dogleg). The hole narrows significantly as one approaches the green with anything from 8 iron to 3 iron depending on how much of the corner was bit off and the wind. The green has a sweeping back right to front left movement and anything long is death.

Jeff 1-up based on the demand of both the tee shot and the approach.

Second Hole: A short downhill Par 4 that will have long hitters hitting iron off the tee. No real benefit to flirting with the bunkers down the left side as the green sits like a table on top of a plateau with a creek in front. Approach will be a short iron or wedge. Long or left is a sure bogey, and probable double.

Match all-square because I really like Lederach’s second and feel the green and approach make for more interest than at the Jeff.

Third Hole: Back up the hill with the 290 yard and drivable Par 4 third. Right flirts with bunkers and left will have the approach hampered by a well-placed tree. All the hazards come into play if the player hits driver going for it, while an iron off the tee will avoid the hazard but leave a tricky uphill approach to a small, undulating green. Back left portion of the green falls off.

Match still all-square, Lederach’s Par 5 has many options and is a great hole, but so is the third at Jeffersonville, but for different reasons and purposes, they both fit into the routing and golf course just as well. Too close to call as it could go either way.

Fourth Hole: A short par 3 of 140 yards to a small green with Ross/Prichard mounding and bunker work all around. Short siding the hole will cause a very tricky up and down, and even hitting the green in regulation leave no guaranteed two putt.

Lederach 1-up: The fourth at Lederach is the most demanding hole on the front nine and is comparable to Jeffersonville’s opener in terms of shot value. The pitch shot at the Jeff for the fourth is good, but no match for one of the best holes at Ledearch.

Fifth Hole: A mid length (370 yards), slight dogleg left par 4 at Jeffersonville with a fairly open tee shot. Just left of center is the ideal line as the right side of the fairway is hampered by overhanging specimen trees and a awkward angle into a great green. The green contour on the fifth is comparable to some of the stuff at Lederach and any hole on the left side is a difficult par or birdie. As is the case with most of the holes at the Jeff, long is death.

Lederach 1-up: Both holes are of similar difficulty and the fifth at Lederach is the best par 3 on the front nine, and one of the best holes on the nine, in general.

Sixth Hole: A long (570 yards) par 5 of near infinite angles, OB sneaks in on the right off the tee to anyone attempting to cut the corner. Taking fairway wood or iron out to the left of the first dogleg will take the option of going for the green in two out of play but leave a fairly benign second shot for position as the OB disappears for the moment. If successful in cutting the corner, a decent look at the green is had, but the ever present OB sneaks in VERY close on the right side so the golfer must be aware to aim left if going for two as any small kick right will find one of the greenside bunkers or worse fate. A small green with ~7 feet of elevation change from front to back awaits the golfer and two putts from the back of the green is no small feat. Interesting that the conservative player can remove the OB from consideration but the aggressive player must contend with it on both shots.

Match all-square: Both Jeffersonville Par 5s are superior to the par 5s at Lederach in terms of options off the tee/going for the green in two, and in the greens themselves. No small feat considering how good Lederach’s Par 5s are.

Seventh Hole: An uphill, medium length (383 yards) dogleg left Par 4. The tee shot flirting with the bunkers at the inside of the corner is left with a mid to short iron approach to a narrow table top green with trouble all around. Anything right of center may still find the fairway and a decent angle, but the length of the shot makes for a nervous approach to a ever-shrinking target. The green has a tier running through the middle that demands distance control as any chip from the left or the right will have to contend with it in some form if not hole high.

Jeffersonville 1-up. While the 7th at Lederach is a “good” par 3, I think it’s the weakest hole on both the front nine and of all the par 3s. Jeffersonville’s 7th is comparable to the 2nd and 10th at Lederach in difficulty.

Eighth Hole: A long downhill par 3 (195 yards) over a pond to the smallest (and one of the most undulating and severe) greens at Jeffersonville. This hole is a knee knocker in any sort of wind as the dinner plate for a green presents an even more demanding target. Being below the hole here is more important than anywhere on the course with the possible exception of 18.

Jeffersonville 1-up. The 8th at Lederach presents a unique challenge in both the tee shot and approach and on any given day these two holes could go back and forth in terms of quality and challenge.

Ninth Hole: A sweeping dogleg right of around 390 yards at Jeffersonville to a wide open fairway and a fairly flat, large green. Bunkers festoon both sides of the fairway, but are only found with a severely mis-struck shot. A good hole, but not that great.

March all square. Lederach’s ninth is higher in challenge and shot value despite the somewhat over-the-top green I’d put it above Jeffersonville’s.

Back nine coming up.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #146 on: August 04, 2006, 04:32:25 PM »
Nicely done...  For comparison, here are KBM front 9 hole descriptions:
http://www.kellyblakemoran.com/lederachblog.html

Kyle Harris

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #147 on: August 04, 2006, 05:14:49 PM »
Here's my view on the Back nine:

Tenth Hole: At Jeffersonville, I’ve been told this hole resembles Plainfield in the manner in which the fairway and green slope/angle. A hole of but 350 yards, this drive and pitch is perilous on both shots. Any shot hit right will bound further right into specimen trees and the adjacent ninth hole. The pitch into the green is straightforward but not without peril. The green itself is flattish and elevated with some movement.

Lederach 1-up: The tenth at Lederach is one of my favorites on the course and has more options and shot value than the tenth at Jeffersonville.

Eleventh Hole: Rip into a tee shot at the 392 yard 11th, being sure not to drive too far into the creek. Apart from the fairway bunker right, the tee shot is relatively open. The approach is to a Redan-ish green with a severe depression on the left front. A hole location in this spot demands a precision approach for a decent shot at a birdie or even two putt. Holes on the back shelf are prone to some undulation and movement. This hole is a candidate for best on the course.

Match all-square: The 11th at Lederach is okay in my book, but fairly one dimensional.

Twelfth Hole: A mid range par 3 at the Jeff that allows for a run up shot to a small green surrounded by mounding and bunkers. The hole plays shorter than the card 197 but not by much. Another “short side is death” hole that abounds at the Jeff, and indeed Ross courses everywhere.

March all-square: I really like both, and like the comparison of the 3rd holes, a lot can be said about both holes that make this go back and forth. Especially tough seeing as the 12th at Lederach is a 670 yard par 5!

Thirteenth Hole: From here on in, Jeffersonville bares its teeth and shows no quarter. 13 is a sweeping down hill par 4 where the tee shot MUST find the fairway for a shot at this green. Depending on the tee shot, a long iron from the top of the hill, a mid iron from the downslope or a short iron from the bottom (flirting with the creek off the tee) is in order to this tightly bunkered and severely undulating green. Being pin high is again important for a decent shot at a two putt. At 430 yards, one of the longest and toughest 4s on the course.

Jeffersonville 1-up. I like 13 at Lederach, but the demands made by the 13th at Jeffersonville are hard to beat – anywhere. Jeffersonville’s 13th could be one of the best holes in Montgomery County. No small feat.

Fourteenth Hole: A short (337 yards) uphill par 4 at Jeffersonville where Driver, 3-wood or long iron are all intelligent plays depending on the style of the player. A wedge to another severe green is in order. A good birdie shot from below the hole, and an almost guaranteed three putt from above.

Match all square: 14 at Jeffersonville is no match for the best par 3 at Lederach.

Fifteenth Hole: The longest par 3 at Jeffersonville (215 yards) plays to the green with the most change in elevation (over 8 feet from front to back). As with the holes before, be hole high and give yourself plenty of green on a miss. Playing from the approach short of the green is a good conservative way to ensure no worse than a bogey.

Match all square: A dynamite par 4 at Lederach and a great par 3 at Jeffersonville.

Sixteenth Hole: Angles abound on this mid length par 4 (390) and a tee shot flirting with the high specimen tree on the right side will find the player with a wedge to a tricky green. The green reminds me more of a Willie Park green than Donald Ross in that subtle ripples and undulations are all over with mounding and bunkering guarding the sides and approaches.

Lederach 1 up: I love the gull wing par 3 at Lederach, and the variety on that hole holds just enough interest to match and even exceed this good hole at Jeffersonville.

Seventeenth Hole: A brute of a par 4 at 452 yards, this is the toughest 4 on the course. A tee shot must be RIPPED to reach the corner and any of the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg leave little to no shot at the green. The approach is long to a larger green, but trouble lurks on each side.

Match all square: Hardest par at the Jeff beats a tough par at Lederach, even though the center line bunkers at Lederach’s 17th are appealing, as is the green shot.

Eighteenth Hole: The second par 5 at the Jeff that plays as another double dogleg though the angle off the tee isn’t as important as on the sixth. A tee shot cutting the corner will give the golfer a slightly better look at the green, which is tucked behind several trees, bunkers and slopes away from a golfer in the fairway off the tee. The timid player must “bail out” toward a pond and creek to leave a good angle to this small, severe, and steep green. Going for the green in two requires a high, long, but softly landing shot and a bit of luck on the bounce, as through the green lurks a bunker, a drainage ditch, and OB. Options abound and birdie and double bogey lurk everywhere.

Not so sure on this one, having never played the 18th at Lederach.


In comparison, I've taken several beginning golfers to Jeffersonville and all have liked the experience as their first time on a golf course. All have stuck with the game.

I'm not so sure the same would happen at Lederach.

Matt_Ward

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #148 on: August 04, 2006, 06:13:15 PM »
Kyle:

Skipping over Lederach for the moment -- do you see Jeffersonville being ahead of other stalwarts such as Wyncote and Glen Mills in eastern PA ? And, if so, by how much.

P.S. You mentioned taking several beginning players to Jeffersonville -- frankly I could care two cents less what beginners think because they have such limited exposure. For many beginners just the thought of being out on a big time course can be sufficient -- with no disrespect to Jeffersonville.

Kyle Harris

Re:Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !
« Reply #149 on: August 04, 2006, 06:18:42 PM »
I've only played Wyncote of the two, and I'd put Jeffersonville over it, though not by much, as to me Wyncote is Doak 5.

From what I've seen/heard of Glen Mills,  I am not sure the Jeff stands up, but will have to see it first hand.

My comment re: beginning players was more to give you an idea of the "feel" of Jeffersonville - not as in-your-face and avant garde. There's something for everybody there. Yes, the big time course thing is a factor as you said, but I think a beginner would find Lederach a bit more frustrating than fun (high chance of lost balls, tighter "feel," less "standard" golf).