Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !

[Matt_Ward]

Had the pleasure in playing Lederach today (Tuesday) since I could not join my fellow GCA comrades last Friday.

The course was especially wet from all the rain he have had but all in all I was quite pleased from what I saw. One of the things the place could do is breakdown and spend some $$ for some decent practice range balls -- the last time I hit donuts that bad was at Bethpage's august driving range that always gave me the appearance of being akin to the beach head scenes filmed in "Saving Private Ryan."

Pardon me -- I digress.

Lederach presents some very interesting elements and is a solid follow-up to what Kelly Blake Moran created at Morgan Hill -- although Lederach has a much more subdued land area instead of the Airborne Ranger one found at Morgan HILL (emphasis added).

A couple of quick minor points -- the 1st hole is listed on the scorecard as a 450-yard opener. However, the actual hole is no more than 342 yards and the plans for the creation of the back tee are to be completed at some later date from what I was told.

How the facility sports a 73.9 CR and 137 slope with the actual first hole not being played at full posted length does strike me as odd.

The interesting element of Moran's work is the boldness he displays with his green contours. For those who enjoyed Hawk Pointe, Morgan Hill and Laurel Links -- Lederach has these elements in spades.

The first green is neatly protected by twin mounds which provide a healthy separation point both to the sides and to the front and rear areas of the green. I'd like to play the hole at its full length (450 yards) and see the effect of what an approach can be like with such a target. To Moran's considerable credit he does provide a landing zone at the first but it's not so 101-level public design to accept just about any type of approach.

One of the weaknesses with Moran designs is that there are times where he spends a disproportionate emphasis on the green area but then relegates the fairway areas to more of a support function. You can see that with the 2nd hole -- the 400-yard hole is listed as the #3 handicap hole and that is simply not believable IMHO. The fairway tilts to the left but the entire landing area is simply unguarded by anything of substance. In sum -- it was beat the drive with little concern for anything more than to hit as hard as one can muster.

The flip side of the hole comes with the 2nd shot. The pin was cut far to the left and again here is where Kelly excels. The mounding in front of the green is a series of waves -- sort of like what you find at the ocean -- however - these waves don't run towards the player but are at a perpendicular angle. The mounding is elevated just before it lowers itself into the green -- in sum -- the player who hits too short will not get the necessary jump up onto the green. For the player who hits the top of the mound but not far enough to hit the green there's a very good chance your ball may run through the back of the green -- and on the left side it's quite narrow.

Frankly, how the 2nd hole can be the 3 handicap hole and the superb uphill par-4 4th at 430 yards is listed as #7 is simply misplaced -- it should be the other way around without a doubt.

The 4th is a delicious hole. The drive must avoid an artfully created fairway bunker that really is there to to keep one's tee shot from disappearing into the junk land on that side. The best tee shot is one that hugs the right side but then must avoid getting stuck in the mound on that side. The green is one of the best at Lederach -- it is a reverse "L" type green. The front also dips down before rising towards the center and then roughly 2/3's of the way back the surface moves nicely on a right-to-left movement. The pin was cut hard left and was neatly protected by a greenside bunker on that side.

I hit a long drive up the right side and had roughly 120 yards but I bailed out from going straight at the pin and was left with the right-to-left movement I previously mentioned -- I was no more than 20 feet but the nature of what I had left prevented me from being aggressive and suffer the three-jack.

I have more to say as time is tight for me now.

Suffice to say -- for a state that has been in the past absolutely WOEFUL in terms of quality public golf -- you now have two daily fee layouts in Lederach and Morgan Hill that have hopefully started a trend away from the inane layouts that are rated so high in the state (e.g. Olde Stonewall, to name just one).

Kudos to Kelly for a job well done.

One other thing -- I'd like to see what Doak rating scale number those have played the course already would assign. I'll do likewise after I post a few other thoughts as well.

Here are the numbers on the course now ...

Acual tip yardage = 6,920 / Par-71

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

not sure if you noticed, but the holes haven't been handicapped yet.

The front nine was given the odd HCP holes in order, and the back nine the evens.

I felt the same as you regarding that.

It's a Doak 6.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Thanks for explaining the handicap situation -- now you know why my wife does our taxes !!!

One of the other unique holes -- the superb 236-yard 5th hole. The frontal mounding is indeed well crafted -- balls can either propel towards the green or go in other less desirable locations. The tilt of the green is also well done -- the higher you go left the more demanding the pitch. If you opt for a direct flight it needs to be carry and stay away from the rough grass the inhabits that side.

I hit a five iron and tried to fade the ball into the hole and it came out fine. I also tried to play a lower trajectory and see how the mounds work -- very well done because it does give the higher handicapper a means to get the ball to the green on this long par-3 type.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Good to hear you made it down either way.

What were you thoughts on the stretch from 10-14? Personally, I like both the 11th and 12th for various reasons.

Word of your prodigious length has reached across the Delaware and I am curious to see how you found your length to be an asset or liability at Lederach. My own game has been in a state of disrepair for sometime, but it seems like Lederach places a rather high premium on both landing area and trajectory of the shot.

I've tried to abstract this concept in the thread I started an hour ago.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Welcome to the Lederach Fan Club!!!

Let's hear "the rest of the story" about your round at Lederach.

There have been many threads on Lederach. Mike Cirba's "The Antithesis of Modern Golf" sums up most of the thoughts of those who have previously played there and my recent thread on the July 21 Outing also has many posts about the course- its design and fun factor. Sorry you missed the Outing and the post round discussions with KBM about his course.

I have no idea when the holes will be handicapped properly. The course rating/slope originally came in much lower and the current numbers were the result of an appeal to GAP.

How did you find the pace of play? I played there again on Sunday afternoon and we started on 10. I was told that this is sometimes done on  weekends to see if play is speedier. My foursome finished in 4:20 which was an improvement of some prior 4:45 to 5 hour rounds from 1.

The recent rains have indeed softened the course and greens. I look forward to a dry fall and firmer conditions.

Steve who birdied 3 AND 4 on Sunday.

www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=23949

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[Craig_Rokke]

Matt,

Good to hear you made it down either way.

What were you thoughts on the stretch from 10-14? Personally, I like both the 11th and 12th for various reasons.

Word of your prodigious length has reached across the Delaware and I am curious to see how you found your length to be an asset or liability at Lederach. My own game has been in a state of disrepair for sometime, but it seems like Lederach places a rather high premium on both landing area and trajectory of the shot.

I've tried to abstract this concept in the thread I started an hour ago.

Kyle-

I like 10, and the use of the tree fronting the left side of the green.
The bunkering on the hole is well-done. 11 just doesn't do it for me.
I think the hole should be more receptive to approach shots, and the tee shot, to me anyway, allows for the use of many different clubs, but
no real viable risk-reward relationship.(Am I missing something here?) I like 12, and the challenge of getting there in 3. If you can get into position,  13 presents a pretty cool approach shot over a ravine that is best struck with a short iron. I liked 14 a lot. A stout test with a very good greensite/bunkering. All in all, it's a good stretch of holes.

Most of these holes have at least some form of forced carry, and Lederach as a whole is a good test off the tees in that regard.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

How did you miss the blind fairway bunker guarding the left corner at #2?  

The first time I played, one of my playing partners slung a sweet little draw that appeared to be the perfect line from the tee, only to find his ball squarely into the ragged bunker that diagonally extends into the fairway.

Overall probably a Doak Scale 6, but that's only because it's routed through a housing development that has some inherent limitations.   From a purely architectural features perspectively, however, it's higher.  For instance, how often do you hear of modern greens compared to those at The Old Course?

[Mike Hendren]

One of the weaknesses with Moran designs is that there are times where he spends a disproportionate emphasis on the green area but then relegates the fairway areas to more of a support function.

Matt,

Is this not a hallmark of Donald J. Ross' work?

Great review,  I always appreciate your thoughtfullness, thoroughness and frankness.

Mike

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike Cirba and Rman,

You guys were pretty big fans of Morgan Hill. I personally could not look past the site that Kelly was handed. So now in hindsite, how would you split the 10 round scenario between Lederach, Hawk Point and Morgan Hill and why?

Mine would be:

Hawk Point - 6 rounds, I have to go back to see if it is achitecturally equal to Lederach, but I will take the farm pastural setting all day there. The houses only intrude on 17 and 18 I believe.

Lederach - 4 rounds - I agree with Mike Cirba's Doak 6 with more potential for removal of houses and some of the walks. Maybe a redo of #11 for me. That is a very fun course to play, at least from the Blue tees for us.

Morgan Hill - 0 rounds - I just felt like I was a kid back at Big Boulder skiing again. I really believe Kelly did a great job there. In some ways his best, but it just too much terrain for me.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

I'll cut and paste from another thread where I did my breakout assessment.

If pressed, I'd say Lederach is the boldest and most unconventional of the three.  It's a shame in some ways that the course is within a housing complex, because the routing is a bit compromised and visually it is not as impressive as it might be.  However, thankfully the setbacks are pretty substantial and there is plenty of room for golf.

I guess of 15 rounds I'd choose 7 at Lederach, 5 at Morgan Hill, and 3 at Hawk Pointe.  

I really enjoy all three of them, but although Hawk Pointe is probably the best land to work with of the three, and is such a good strategic test that I wrote an essay here about it six or so years ago, I think Morgan Hill is a greater accomplishment, and ultimately Lederach would be more consistently intriguing round after round.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

I'll post later on the holes you mentioned.

Mike C:

The blind bunker at #2 is simply an irrelevancy for the strong players. Tell you what would have worked better -- have that bunker moved to the center of the fairway with a 310 yard carry from the tips. Now that would give me some pause rather than wet my lips and let it rip as I did yesterday and had nothing more than a 50-yard shot left.

Steve:

Thanks for asking about the slow play because from what I could see -- and judging from the angry faces that marched into the pro shop I can see it being an issue.

When I played carts were restricted to the paths and that inevitably does cause a back-up of play as players are sometimes in all places far removed from where their carts are parked.

The facility does have rangers but from what I can see they were merely set decoration and didn't actively engage players to speed up as needed.

I'll post the rest of my thoughts on the various holes and how I approached them a bit later today.

Mike "Bogey" Hendren:

The concern I raised was that there is the belief that all of the details should rest with the putting greens and their surrounding areas. I do appreciate that and saluite what Moran did with Lederach, however, I also believe that the tee shot dimension needs to be challenged as well.

For example, the solitary bunker that guards the middle of the fairway at #6 is nothing more than a set decoration. Placing it further down the fairway -- another 20-30 yards would have been more challenging for the longer hitters. Now, the bunker serves more of an issue for the shorter hitters than the reverse.

Ditto the situation with the bunker in the middle at #8. Big hitters simply ignore it and pound away. Ditto the center bunker on #9. Frankly, the people impacted upon is the higher handicap types.

At the 12th I would have preferred seeing the center bunker complex moved closer to the green because it doesn't have the impact it might have had in a different location.

Please don't think I am suggesting the work at Lederach suffers because of this one item -- quite the contrary -- the design provokes THINKING and PLACEMENT -- two elements in public course design that are often jettisoned away rather than embraced.

Moran's design for engaging players in a much more forthright and challenging way is far more sophisticated from the tee to fairway areas at Lederach than what one would see at say Hawk Pointe. No doubt he has learned from past designs and is incorporating verious elements into the total package.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I don't have the yardage book in front of me, but my most recent round included play with two -4 handicappers, one of whom hits the ball like a +2 but with a suspect short game.

On each of the holes where you mentioned center bunker features that you carried (2, 6, 8, 9, 12, should I also assume 17?) with impugnity I can tell you that they were all very much in play for our group from the tips.

You mentioned that you were left with a 50 yard approach on #2, which means your drive went 350 yards.  

This begs the question you debated before with Tom Doak.  Should there be additional features architected for the 1% of golfers who can hit the ball that long?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Let me cite one clear example of an architect who understands how to corral the strong player -- Tom Doak's superb par-5 3rd hole at Pac Dunes.

Doak created a dual center oriented bunkers and placed them in the middle of the fairway with sufficient room in between in the event of differing wind patterns. This MAKES the strong hitter stand up and notice that simply beating the ball will not suffice -- in fact -- you could really take it hard on the chin.

Another example -- the par-5 17th hole at Wild Horse. The same idea comes through with the Proctor & Axland design as the center placed bunker there is a deterrent to the adventure seekers who believe they can get away with just about anything.

Mike -- it's critical that a course -- any course -- isn't simply over-powered because then it becomes a game of strength alone.

There are numerous fairway bunkers that have a major role when playing Lederach -- the fairway bunker on the left of #4 is a good example. Ditto the elevated mound with rough covering you find on #17 -- and it certainly has an effect when the south / southwest prevailing winds kick in. I carried it the other day but it took a good poke.

On the other holes I am prepared to hear varying comments and adjust my initial thinking as needed if convinced.

Right now -- I'm not.

Mike -- check the card again thoroughly and you will see the comments I made are accurate as the distances needed for carries. I am also not suggesting that long hitters be catered to that would result in large expenses but if a course cannot handle the good strong player then the exercise of the course should not be relegated to the artsy type golfers who have a game of more narrow dimensions.

P.S. Mike -- quick reminder -- the #2 hole plays a bit downhill too !!!


Gents:

One quick thing -- I made the comment when in the pro shop the other day that it would be blast for the 9th and 18th to play to the differen to the different greens. For example, at the 9th tee you would hit to the 18th and vice versa.

No doubt it won't be done because of criss cross shots from players but wonder what others think about this "bold" idea.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I'll try to post the carry distances tonight.  I think this is a very interesting and relevant discussion.

As far as your idea about 9&18, I'm not in agreement that each would be a better hole with a forced water carry on the approach but I do think the 9th tee to the 18th green could be a pretty good.  

As far as wild ideas, I found myself wanting to play the golf course backwards in stretches.  Of course, given the routing/housing limitations, that wouldn't be possible, but I think I'd enjoy playing, for instance, 4 green (tee) to 3 green, 3 green to 2 green, 2 green to 1 green.  

Or perhaps we're both insane.  

[Craig_Rokke]

Just talked to my buddy who I took to the outing. His 7 year old daughter is loving golf camp at Lederach! (After a couple days of
fundamentals, they'll be heading out to the tips @ #12 for some action   )

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle said, "What were you thoughts on the stretch from 10-14? Personally, I like both the 11th and 12th for various reasons."

Kyle -- the 10th hole is not really a dog-leg in the sense of how it plays. I simply drove my cart out to where the hole was and after surveying the challenge simply blasted a tee shot up the left and had about 75 yards left into the green.

Frankly, that side needs to be defended a good bit more than it is now.

The tree in the path of the fairway and green is well done because it's possible it can impact the player. I didn't see the challenge of the hole to be that unique -- the green is also one of the more pedestrian types you find while at Lederach.

The par-4 11th is a somewhat confusing hole until after you play it. The tee shot begs for the bold play but there's little to be gained from being too bold. I like the fairway movement and the break point does feature the kind of high grass that will deter people without thinking twice. One other note -- I especially like deep narrow greens because club selection is so critical and the 11th has it in spades.

I have opined on #12 previously. The center bunkers need to be placed further down the fairway to really challenge people on the second shot. If they were placed at the 500-525 yards area then things would get a bit more interesting and to free up space for the shorter hitting higher handicap player.

One other note the green features a reverse "C" and I like the "wing" effect you see since the pin can be cut into the far extremes and therefore not be an automatic accessible pin location.

The par-4 13th leaves me with a mixed feeling. I like the way the topography was used and it's a neat transition because it takes you from one point on the layout (the higher side) to another piece of the property.

However, I'm not a fan of the 90-degree dog-leg type holes. Why? Too often they mandate that the player hit his shot only so far to a given location. In sum -- everyone plays from the same general point. If such dog-leg holes can be cut-off then the nature of the hole provides too much leeway for the stronger player.

From a design principle perspective the hole works -- but for me philosophically I don't appreciate 90 degree holes for the reasons already stated.

Now, the 14th is a different matter. Superb hole -- one of the few times an uphill hole works so well. The green also has more unique movements so it pays to land on the correct side. It's important to note that Moran does use fairly regularly the reverse "C" concept -- whereby the middle portion is sunk lower than the wings that emerge on either side. Have to say the 14th and 5th holes are two of the best 200+ yard par-3 holes I have played this year among the new public courses.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Did I miss your Doak Scale score?

[Craig_Rokke]

Matt-

I'm surprised you don't think 12's center bunkers are in play, and need to be moved further out. Playing from the blues, I hit my longest drive of the day--what would have been 310 on a level fairway--and I felt that they were still in play on my 2nd shot.

My Doak scale: 6.0 after accounting for site distractions.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I like your clever approach. I'm dwelling on it now and will post later.

Since you asked for mine how bout you take the honor and provide yours.

Mike -- since we are on the subject -- how bout putting a number on other KBM layouts you have played too?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Michael Moore]

Matt -

Frankly, I was so enamoured of the hospitality and the golf in Philadelphia this year that I am already planning a return in 2007.

If I were to play six courses on that trip, would you recommend Lederach among them? Please note that I am not prone to Wardian blasts due to my backwards driving equipment . . .

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

I like your clever approach. I'm dwelling on it now and will post later.

Since you asked for mine how bout you take the honor and provide yours.

Mike -- since we are on the subject -- how bout putting a number on other KBM layouts you have played too?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Matt,

Are you not reading what I wrote?   I think I answered both of your questions above about my personal Doak Scale Rating of Lederach (6) as well as a comparison of how often I'd play Lederach (7), Morgan Hill (5), and Hawk Pointe (3) placed in competition with each other over 15 rounds, as well as the reasons why.  

As far as dwelling on it now, all I said is that I'd post the yardages to reach and carry each central bunker feature when I get home tonight and grab the yardage book.

No hedging or delaying here, Matt..  

[Matt_Ward]

Michael M:

The short answer is no but then again I don't know what courses you have already played. The top tier courses are roughly ten private ones.

Lederach just happens to be the best public option that I have played within immediate Philadlephia area -- not including the Jersey layouts on the other side of the Delaware.

One I know what you played I can tell you where Lederach fits or doesn't fit.

Mike C:

Forgive me partner -- my eyes are starting to go. You can see that with what happened in my "understanding" of what holes were the stroke holes at Lederach!

I concur that Lederach can be a Doak 6 -- however much of my number centers around the hope that firm and fast conditions can be incorporated at a later date. Given the newness of the course it will take some time for those optimum elements to be present time after time.

I also have concerns -- although again it's early -- about the cutting of the tees and fairways. They were both high when I played, however, to be fair, it's a very new layout and the heavy rains have clearly taken a toll.

I'm also concerned about the nature of the overall green speeds. The 9th hole is a case in point. Anything above a 9 on the Stimp and the hole literally cannot be played. The day I was there the pin was cut hard right on top of the mound on that side -- the landing area was the size of a Wendy's table top.

Clearly, the facility will have to monitor green speeds in order to keep certain pin positions active and reduce wear and tear of the same positions.

Mike -- I've reviewed the yardages (book in hand) and stand by what I said previously. Look forward to your comments.

Craig R:

My first impressions on courses can change with a second play. I hear what you say about the bunker complex at #12 but I don't see their present location as being more than a periphery role. Compare that to what Kelly did with the uphill dog-leg right par-5 5th hole at Morgan Hill. There the cross bunker does come into play for those who miss the fairway.

When I say moving the bunkers back I'm talking a modest change 20-30 yards -- not something larger.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle said, "What were you thoughts on the stretch from 10-14? Personally, I like both the 11th and 12th for various reasons."

Kyle -- the 10th hole is not really a dog-leg in the sense of how it plays. I simply drove my cart out to where the hole was and after surveying the challenge simply blasted a tee shot up the left and had about 75 yards left into the green.

Frankly, that side needs to be defended a good bit more than it is now.

The tree in the path of the fairway and green is well done because it's possible it can impact the player. I didn't see the challenge of the hole to be that unique -- the green is also one of the more pedestrian types you find while at Lederach.

The par-4 11th is a somewhat confusing hole until after you play it. The tee shot begs for the bold play but there's little to be gained from being too bold. I like the fairway movement and the break point does feature the kind of high grass that will deter people without thinking twice. One other note -- I especially like deep narrow greens because club selection is so critical and the 11th has it in spades.

I have opined on #12 previously. The center bunkers need to be placed further down the fairway to really challenge people on the second shot. If they were placed at the 500-525 yards area then things would get a bit more interesting and to free up space for the shorter hitting higher handicap player.

One other note the green features a reverse "C" and I like the "wing" effect you see since the pin can be cut into the far extremes and therefore not be an automatic accessible pin location.

The par-4 13th leaves me with a mixed feeling. I like the way the topography was used and it's a neat transition because it takes you from one point on the layout (the higher side) to another piece of the property.

However, I'm not a fan of the 90-degree dog-leg type holes. Why? Too often they mandate that the player hit his shot only so far to a given location. In sum -- everyone plays from the same general point. If such dog-leg holes can be cut-off then the nature of the hole provides too much leeway for the stronger player.

From a design principle perspective the hole works -- but for me philosophically I don't appreciate 90 degree holes for the reasons already stated.

Now, the 14th is a different matter. Superb hole -- one of the few times an uphill hole works so well. The green also has more unique movements so it pays to land on the correct side. It's important to note that Moran does use fairly regularly the reverse "C" concept -- whereby the middle portion is sunk lower than the wings that emerge on either side. Have to say the 14th and 5th holes are two of the best 200+ yard par-3 holes I have played this year among the new public courses.

Matt,

I had to read some of your comments twice to make sure you were being serious. I just posted a picture on the trees in the fairway thread of where Doug was on 10 when we played it the first time and I am assuming you were both in similar areas. To say that you can "simply bomb it out there" is something of a malapproprism for 98% of golfers out there. Doug will even admit that was one of the best tee shots he's hit, ever.

Have you considered how the course would play for other golfers, i.e. the population of Lower Salford Twp?

Your analysis of the 12th falls under the same critique. Both times I've played the hole, the cat-scratch feature has played into my play of the hole, and the second time my decked driver just barely curled around the right side. I definitely see how the feature can play into a golfers' mind from both the fairway and rought as well.

I think your opinion of the tee shots on holes 2, 10, and 12 may change in different conditions than the relatively humid, mild wind day you played yesterday.

How was your short game there? Any comments there?

[Mike_Sweeney]

I'm surprised you don't think 12's center bunkers are in play, and need to be moved further out. Playing from the blues, I hit my longest drive of the day--what would have been 310 on a level fairway--and I felt that they were still in play on my 2nd shot.

Craig,

Pretty similar for me too. If you move the cross bunkers up 20-30 yards, they now meet up with the right fairway bunker. Thus, a mystery bunker becomes part of a larger bunker complex and changes the entire dynamics of the hole.

Matt,

It sounds like you had a good day and that the course played easy for you. What score did you shoot?

Mr Moore,

In comparison to the public courses that I grew up on around Philly, Lederach is heads and shoulders above the much loved Cobbs Creek. If South Portland Municipal does not have reciprocal agreement with Pine Valley, I suggest you try Lederach.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I have my handy-dandy yardage book and wanted to post some of the yardages from the tips as promised;

1) About 236 to reach the parallel bunkers that narrow the tee shot, about 260 to carry them.

2) 239 to reach the blind bunker down the left (slightly downhill), about 259 to carry.

4) 293 to reach the bunker that splits the fairway at the end of it.

6) 235 to reach the first center bunker (slightly uphill), 258 to carry it.

245 to reach the center bunker, 265 to carry it.

9) 215 to reach the center bunker (slightly downhill), 250 to carry it onto a sweeping left downslope.

10) 280 to reach the blind fairway bunker where the fairway ends down the right, a 262 yard carry over rough terrain to play away from it down the left.

12) About a 450 yard two shot carry (the second steeply uphill) to get past the deep, gnarly center (hell type) bunker.

17) 241 yards to reach and 272 yards to carry (progressively uphill) the center gunchy outcropping.

Can these hazards be overpowered by someone extremely long?  Yes, they can be avoided but given the need for positioning and the interest around the greens, I'm not sure the course can be overpowered.

Plus, besides you, i'm not sure Daly, Mickelson, and Woods will be coming to Lederach anytime soon.