[Tim Leahy]

TH,
Does that Haggin Oaks in Sacramento have any candidates for this discussion? I assume you have played it.

Forget Haggin, it is AM in name only, the renovation added nothing except a great 19th hole.

[Bill_McBride]

As Huck says, the barranca in front of #12 used to be as wild and dramatic, even if not as deep, as that in front of #18.  "Cupcake?"  Maybe, but it's the perfect hole in that part of the routing.  10-11-12: difficult, very difficult, cupcake!

I think this is the trap Matt Ward fell into about Bandon Trails - he thinks every hole on an 18 hole course has to be a great hole.  There has to be a rhythym, and to me that's what Pasatiempo and a number of other MacKenzie courses is all about.

[John Kirk]

I'm not a big fan of #17 at Crystal Downs.  It's kind of impressive though.  Amazing how such a great architect would build a hole with no discernible landing area.

I'm fortunate enough to have played two outstanding Mackenzie courses, CD and PT.  I'm sure there are better  candidates elsewhere.

[Matt_Cohn]

# 15th P5 RMW - a relatively flat and fairly uninspriring P5...the front left trap being the best component of the hole.

Kevin,
If I understand right, Mackenzie left that hole basically intact from the previous course on that site as either a throwback, or a sort of reminder of how unappealing holes can be when his ideas were not used.

[Chris Kane]

# 15th P5 RMW - a relatively flat and fairly uninspriring P5...the front left trap being the best component of the hole.

Isn't that the hole he left pretty much as it was from the original Sandringham layout, to show just how bad golf course architecture was before he got there?

[Mark_F]

Isn't that the hole he left pretty much as it was from the original Sandringham layout, to show just how bad golf course architecture was before he got there?

Does that mean if Michelangelo had gotten to the roof of the sistine chapel and found some medieval graffiti artist had left his remnants Mickey should have left some of it there to show future generations how to really paint a ceiling?

Wouldn't that mean if Mike Clayton was hired to restore Commonwealth he would have to leave the 3rd fairway bunkers as they are to show future committee's how bad their meddling can be?

[Chris Kane]

Mark, all I'm doing is reporting what I know.  I'm not making a judgment about whether Mackenzie did the right thing.

[Jim Franklin]

I have played with quite a few guys recently that do not like #1 at Crystal Downs. I thought it was a nice starting hole, but these guys went on and on about what a letdown it was. Don't kill the messenger.

[Nick_Christopher]

I believe #17 at the Downs is actually Maxwell's work...that is what I was told as a caddie there many years ago (#18 is as well).  Mac never saw the course as a finsihed product.

I cannot understand how #1 is a letdown, but to each his own.  Spectacular views, lots of length and tons of wind.  It is one of my favorite holes on the course.

[ForkaB]

The worst MacKenzie hole I have played is the 1st at Cypress Point.  A drive over a hedge.  Of course, once you walk through the hedge, it is a fine golf hole, but by then you are already deflated.  Fortunately the course picks up after that dismal start and it is a great experience!

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas - while I'd agree with Bill to some extent about the flow - keep telling yourself that's a cupcake golf hole.  I know you and you are not that good.  My bet stands that if we play it 3 times, you won't score less than 13.  And that's IF you play it smart as you say you will (and likely would to win this bet).  In normal play you are simply not gonna resist the temptation to get it farther down closer to the green - very few do over the long-haul.

Again, it's not an extremely difficult hole, for sure.  But it does have a lot going on - it is far from "blah" and it is never a "cupcake."

In any case, methinks you also need to get out of this "low handicapper" only mindset.  Ask a 15 or above how easy 12 is.  Oh, it's a rest after the brutality of 11 for him... but he's not sitting on that tee thinking easy par or easy bogey - man he can still make any number on 12.

Your memory remains faulty.  You need to see and play this hole again.

TH

[ForkaB]

Tom

To the 15 HCP, 12 is a 5 wood, 7-iron, SW, two putts, net 4, thank you very much.  No?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom

To the 15 HCP, 12 is a 5 wood, 7-iron, SW, two putts, net 4, thank you very much.  No?

How many 15 hdcps do you know who
a) play that smart and don't hit driver off that tee?
b) make zero mistakes?

Sure, it COULD be done that way - but hell you could say that about ANY par four under 400 yards.

Picture the golf hole, Rich.  A LOT can go wrong.  It is so far from "blah" or a "cupcake" this is really a silly conversation.  I know blah golf holes and cupcakes... this ain't one.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

In regular play, there's a lot going on, as I have noted.

That hole isn't even a cupcake for the scratchiest of scratches, and for us normal players, let's just say it produces WAY more 5s than 3s.

Your memory does remain faulty.  You need to play it again.  You simply can't block out all the trouble that exists on that golf hole.

But OK, you seemingly don't want to give in and trust me on a hole I've played 50 times more than you have.  That's ok.  

So let's leave it at this:

It's the closest thing to a breather on that great back nine.  if you want to call it the easiest hole on that nine, I won't disagree.  I just refuse to call it blah, and if you want to put it in AM's least impressive holes, well then necessarily 6 and 7 must be also, if not 17 and 4 - all of which are also cupcakes in the face of perfect conservative play.

TH

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