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Jordan Wall

Pete Dye worst holes
« on: July 22, 2006, 11:44:46 PM »
...continuing on

Just to let everyone know I have never played a Dye course...
...I do enjoy reading what you guys have to say about archie's courses though!
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Adam Clayman

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2006, 12:07:53 AM »
Jordan, There was the tenth hole at the original Blackwolf Run course, that I'm sure many would consider one of his worst. I however am not one of them.

Ya see, I used the past tense, which itends to inform that it NLE's in it's original form.

The hole had a green that was literally perfectly flat. Pete's most humurous GCA he ever built, IMO. The flat green wasn't really the problem, as much as the height of that green, from the original LZ. It was so steep, I'd swear the last few steps were vertical. Walking up and seeing the flatness, was one of the most unique experiences, and the humor was likely missed by anyone in a cart.

Today, the green's surface is lower by some 36' and is highly undulating. The fairway for the hole is cut out of the trees from a completely different angle, location and perhaps county, from the original.

I'd vote the current 10th hole on the Meadow-Valley course, as one of Pete's worst. But I don't blame him, as much as I blame the need to appease the common denomonators.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Matt_Cohn

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 12:14:16 AM »
Oak Tree Golf Club, #9.

A fairway bunker that's deep and often uncarryable into the prevailing wind on the left, but a teeshot to the right leaves you behind trees with a bad angle (see Brad Bryant). Unappealing, straightline OB on the left, followed by the driving range. Uninspiring uphill approach to an elevated green that often leaves a semiblind uphill pitch from short of the green. Nothing exciting or fun going on in the green; just wide back to front-ish slopes. To me, neither visually appealing nor fun to play. Hard? Yeah.
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Tom_Doak

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 01:03:37 AM »
The 14th at Carmel Valley Ranch in California, with that ridiculous five-tiered green.
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Tim Bert

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2006, 01:06:16 AM »
Whistling Straits #5.  I've read Doak's comments on how this came to be, and why it needed to exist, but it doesn't make it good.

Completely out of character with the rest of the course in my opinion.
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Joe Hancock

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2006, 03:22:20 PM »
Quote from: BV on July 23, 2006, 03:13:50 PM
The holes with nooses are insensitive
 

And a noose without a hole is just a knot.

I'm curious to know how a noose offended you.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom Zeni

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2006, 04:33:14 PM »
While I don't have a specific hole, I can attest that Dye's Mystic Rock golf course in Western PA hasn't won any awards. I don't think there is an outstanding hole on the course, but I have yet to see this year's re-do. The Pro's eat it up, and it's basically suited for a nice resort course, but not a PGA venue.

You'll note what I mean come September when the tour will make it's final stop at Mystic including special guest M. Wie.
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Greg Tallman

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2006, 04:43:28 PM »
I'll call your Mystic Rock and raise you a Montour Heights... some pretty amazing stuff there. I want to say the uphill hole that comes to mind is #12???
« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 11:32:52 AM by Greg Tallman »
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Tom Zeni

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2006, 05:06:24 PM »
My alias for Montour Heights is "Afghanistan With Grass."

Most severe up and down convoluted holes I've ever seen, on possibly the worst piece of property for a golf course in Western PA. However, that was mostly done by Pete's son.

Not only do planes pump in every 2 minutes overhead as the course lies in direct line with the landing runway of Pittsburgh International, for the course itself, you need a tow-rope for the uphill par 5 14th, as well as mountain shoes to play some other holes.  Playing from the tips, which I believe is 7,400 and change, I watched my son (from a distance) in the Robert Morris College Invitational make 17 pars and 1 bogey. Nellie King, the former Pirate pitcher and announcer, was Duquesne's golf coach, stopped to tell my son what a remarkable round that was on one of the most difficult courses in Western PA.

BTW, if you can find a decent pin placement on #4, you win a prize.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 05:16:14 PM by Tom Zeni »
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Ryan Farrow

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2006, 06:30:38 PM »
Tom, I just got back from the course today and I don’t really think it’s the worst piece of land for golf. I think Karsten at Arizona State sat on some pretty awful property(as far as a Dye course).

Some holes just don’t work with the severe topography, for example 6 and 13. I will nominate the cape hole # 14 as being the worst hole on the course. Once you have seen one you have seen them all especially a FAKE, not to mention it’s the second par 5 in a row.

I will also nominate #3 as the best hole on the course. And I will be posting pictures soon in another thread I made about the course.

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Tom Zeni

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2006, 06:43:56 PM »
At Montour, even #1 is squirrely. #3 has tees cut into the hillside and dogs over some scrappy land. As for #6, that's the downhill par 4 that requires no less than a 4 to 6 iron, since once you get it rolling down the hill, they all end in the same low point. #7 is a nice par 3, and at #8 it's back to the mountain climb.

Haven't been Arizona, so I can't comment on Karsten's land, but Montour's former course was better as far as topography.

I do have some pics of MH. When I have time, I'll post them.
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Andy Troeger

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2006, 07:56:31 PM »
I thought it looked pretty good on TV for the PGA, but after playing it #18 at Whistling Straits is probably my least favorite Dye hole.
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Ryan Farrow

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2006, 08:03:03 PM »
I would like to know your favorite hole on the course  ;D  #3 just needs a few more trees removed from the inside corner of the dogleg. There is something about a golf hole that punishes a player with a blind shot into the green who plays it safe. Not to mention adding an even greater reward to the player who dares to bite off the dogleg. I don’t get what you’re saying about the mini valley that it crosses over. If it were all fescue would it make the hole better?

# 7 is probably the best par 3 but the cart path right above the hole ruins it. There are so many other options below the hole or out to the right around the lake. I wonder how many shots go flying off that thing a day.

As for Karsten Golf Course, imagine a piece of dead flat land, high voltage power lines, a power plant and a parcel of land surround on all sides by highway. Does anyone know how much earth was moved to build the course?


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Tim Gavrich

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2006, 09:11:15 PM »
I'd say at least half the holes at Hampton Hall could be nominated for this distinction.
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Doug Ralston

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2006, 09:14:22 PM »
Wow!

Montour Heights sounds like my kind of course. Please post those pix Tom!

Doug
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Tom Zeni

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2006, 10:44:52 PM »
Okay Doug,

Here they are - the pics from Montour Heights near Pittsburgh PA in October of '04 during the practice round. The hole numbers are on the pics bottom right.




This is a downhill dog where the tees were cut into the hillside


Looking back at the tee box of Par 4 #8


2nd shot #8





With the Coach watching.....


Looking back from above the "Green" on the Par 5 14th. You see them walking to their 2nd shot.












Hope you enjoyed them. The fall coloring is beautiful, but the course - Afghanistan With Grass.

tom
« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 10:10:19 AM by Tom Zeni »
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mike_beene

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2006, 10:56:14 PM »
17 at tpc,or 17 at PGA West.Am I alone?
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James Edwards

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2006, 03:38:27 AM »
Ok, has anyone seen the 5th? at Old Marsh, FL...  

There is a huge mound right before the green which is approx 15ft high, making the green blind, totally manufactured with water directly behind the green and the green is maybe 25 paces deep.  

Possibly the funniest/strangest/weirdest piece of architecture ive ever seen as its 100% penal!
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@EDI__ADI

Kevin Pallier

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2006, 08:28:57 AM »
#13 at TPC Sawgrass - for mine the most unimppressive P3 on the course. I felt it was squeezed into the routing.
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Tom Zeni

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2006, 10:30:05 AM »
In the pics of Montour Heights, I noticed I said looking back from the tee at the 14th. Sorry, I meant to say "green." I made that correction.
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Pete Dye worst holes
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2006, 11:04:52 AM »
Quote from: BV on July 23, 2006, 05:52:38 PM
Quote from: Joe Hancock on July 23, 2006, 03:22:20 PM
Quote from: BV on July 23, 2006, 03:13:50 PM
The holes with nooses are insensitive
 

And a noose without a hole is just a knot.

I'm curious to know how a noose offended you.

Joe
I love the work of Pete and Alice Dye and I'm far from a P.C. guy.

Don't you know anyone who committed suicide by hanging him or herself?  One of my patients had a nephew do just that this week. Is it better if it's there to lynch the architect?

A noose is not humorous, but then again, this is america, land of the free.  Laugh away, but I'll continue to think they are tasteless.

I don't see a problem with your position, but I don't see a noose as tasteless, either. Martha Moxley was killed with a six-iron. Anything could be considered tasteless, if ones delves into history deep enough.
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