Nicklaus and Architecture

[GolfCourseSuper]

I've read in certain posts previously that generally speaking, Jack is not highly regarded as an architect.  I know there are many who like his work, but I was curious if his emphasis on the high fade is his main drawback.  I'm sure this topic has been chewed up and spat out long before this, but I'm new and would appreciate some general comments.  Thx.

[SGD]

Super:

I think Nicklaus' early work (e.g., Muirfield Village, Shoal Creek) may have overly emphasized his shot, the high fade.  Nicklaus himself has admitted this in print.

I also think that much of his mid-80's work was overly done (e.g., the conical mounds at Loxahatchee, Grand Traverse Bear, Grand Cypress, the multi-tiered greens at Desert Highlands, the shrp-edged fairways at PGA West), but if truth be told the whole industry was doing the same thing as that was what was in "vogue" and evidently what the property owners wanted.

With those observations made, I think Nicklaus' current work is generally excellent, better than Fazio, Rees Jones, Greg Norman, Palmer-Seay, because of Nicklaus' appreciation of shot values and strategy.  

It's a different, more sculpted, style than Doak, Coore and Crenshaw, and Hanse, which many on this site seem to like more, but in terms of thinking your way around the course, no one can argue that Nicklaus' designs aren't provocative and interesting.  Jay Morrish said he learned more in two minutes about shot values when he first joined the Nicklaus organization than he did in twenty years before.

If Nicklaus compromised in the 80s for the marketable, I think he has come full circle back to building the best possible course, irrespective of marketing, as he sees it.  Las Campanas in Santa Fe, Old Works in Montana, Mayacama in Napa, are examples.  I've heard the The Bear's Club in Florida is a real treat.  He's built a new course for Lyle Anderson in Hawaii called Hokulia which has the ocean and all-world views for aesthetics, but more importantly loads of strategy defined by Mackenzie-inspired bunkers and trees that call for multiple options of play, with natural moving fairway contours, to greens that range from 3,500 sf to 12,000sf.  The 4th is a Cape Hole, 9 has spectacle bunkers guarding a green with a 10 foot natural fall from front plateau to back punchbowl, and 12 imitates 10 at Riviera in reverse.

Overall, if a participant in this DG played one of Nicklaus' current designs, I think he'd walk away impressed.

[Paul Richards]

Seeing as how my best golf shot is the running hook, I have
often been frustrated playing Nicklaus' courses.  

However, as pointed out by SGD, Nicklaus has lately turned
toward making his courses more fair, so as not to only
require a high, soft fade.  The Bear's Club is a wonderful
example of this new style.

[A_Clay_Man]

If, as I hope sgd is right. Maybe Jack's best designs are ahead of him. Now thats positive, ain't it?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Having only played 4 Nicklaus designs and all of them built since 1995, I would highly recommend any of them. They are Kauai Lagoons, Reflection Bay, Nicklaus North and the TPC at Snoqualmie. The bunkers at TPC are amazing and punishing.

Who is the lead design for Nicklaus these days?  I know Jay Morrish and Bob Cupp did a lot of the 80's work for them.

[Bob_Huntley]

J.N. may well be improving with age but his latest course in Montery County, namely Pasadera C.C., is just plain awful.

[GolfCourseSuper]

Well I appreciate the views.  All I can comment on is a round @ TPC of Dearborn last fall.  I felt there was plenty of different shotmaking that was required (not that I could consistently) which included some right to left shots.  I hope to play more of his in the future.

[Mark_Fine]

His course in Palm Coast, FL - Ocean Hammock was a pleasent surprise.  It's a very interesting golf course.  It's right up against the beach and the day we played we had 30-40 mph wind (which I loved and my partner tolerated).  You had to really play a variety of golf shots and the driving areas and greensites allowed for it.  Some very clever bunkering, a number of which are right in the center of the fairways.  I was actually proud of Nicklaus for a change as he got pretty creative.  I gave it a solid edge over its well known private neighbor Hammock Dunes!

[SGD]

Bob Huntley:

I agree that Pasadera CC has some problems, but I was told Nicklaus inherited the routing AS IS, and couldn't deviate from it one iota because of the permitting, from Robert Muir Graves.  It's one project he should have passed on, even for the $1M + design fee.  

Add it to Tehama and The Preserve and you've got to agree that modern architecture hasn't been kind to the Monterey Peninsula!

[SGD]

Craig Edgmand:

Jim Lipe has been Nicklaus' chief designer since Cupp, Morrish and Scott Miller went out on their own.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I have played a mix of Nicklaus' work and without repeating what everyone else has said.....

I think Mayacama is some of his best work and the best recent work I have seen!  The course does have the excesses that drew criticism and is not too punishing that the average player cannot enjoy it.

[Chip Royce]

Nicklaus added another 9 to his course at Landfall, WIlmington, NC which opened this year. In general, a dramatic contrast to his 1980's work that exists at the club.... many good holes, esp. his short par 4's.  

[Paul Richards]

Glad to see Nicklaus' work at the Bears Club, described
above, has met with some recognition.

It placed at #50 on the 2002 Golfweek Modern course list.

[Keith Williams]

I don't know how many other people have made the trip (or might by the slightest of chances, live in the area) but the Old Works is well worth the trip.  I have only played two Nicklaus layouts...Old Works and Reynold Plantation Great Waters and in my personal opinion there is no comparison.  Old Works brings SO much more to the table.

[tomdeignan]

Hey Dave, I am currently studing golf course architecture in Scotland but I worked on the maintenence crew at melrose and bloodypoint from 1999-2000, I have to agree with you, the 18th is a fantastic finishing hole, altho I havent played pebble beach, its probably my favorite finishing hole

[TEPaul]

Certainly Jack Nicklaus's courses may have been oriented to a degree to the high fade but if you look at "Nicklaus and his career inventory in architecture" it's much more than that to me!

Nicklaus may be one of the best examples of the overall concentration of "aerial architecture" of the Modern Age of golf and design!

Why should it have been any different? Jack Nicklaus was not only an innovator himself in the nuances and effectiveness of the "aerial game" but in his formative years and throughout the meat of his career in both tournament golf and architecture the ground game in both American golf and new American architecture was all but dead!

Even the aerial game itself had been somewhat standardize by Nicklaus into the effectiveness of the high, soft landing fade! At the tour level it didn't take that many brain waves to figure out how and why that worked best!

So to me Nicklaus was both a product of an era and the producer (architecturally) of an era!

Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, but I believe that's the basic way Nicklaus's architecture should be looked at!

But I've even heard that Jack may be be changing that theme now in some of his new architecture!

[David Wigler]

I agree with what has been said above.  I have played about 15 Nicklaus courses.  His early work was formulaic and left very few options on play.  It produced works ranging from flat out awful (The Bear) too mediocre.  His latest work has been good to very good.  Mayacama and Southshore are wonderful golf courses.  I am very comfortable recommending Southshore to even the most ardent Nicklaus detractor.  

TPC Dearborn is an interesting course to bring up.  Nicklaus had only 140ish acres with severe wetland restrictions.  He certainly built an interesting course.  Certain holes clearly do not work (#10 for example) but this must have been an unbelievably challenging course to route and he did a credible job.  #11 - #14 is a pretty strong stretch of golf.

Glad to have another Michigan GCA'er.  Welcome aboard.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

GolfCourseSuper,
I've only played one course by JN. His newer stuff is said to be more flexible.
Jack said the following a couple years ago in a GCN article :
“Winged Foot, Baltusrol, those were just cornfields. There was no shaping, nothing. In 30, 40 years, the trees grew up and people say, ‘What a great course.’ It’s not a great golf course. It’s great trees.”  .....and this: “I don’t take a lot of special consideration for women. It’s like, ‘How do you design a golf course for a man who shoots 110?’ ”

He stubbed his d**k with those remarks.

[BCrosby]

Wasn't Nicklaus the one who said that Riviera as a good "members' course" and that he would add water hazards to several holes if he were given the choice?

Bob

[Mike Clayton]

Bob
The two most famous quotes in Australian golf both concern Royal Melbourne
Lee Trevino
'take a picture of me going out the gate because you won't see me ever coming in again. These greens are the greatest joke since Watergate'
Jack Nicklaus
'this is a good members course'

[TEPaul]

JimK:

Did Nicklaus really say that about Winged Foot and such and shaping of golf holes?

Well, Goddamit to Hell, I'm gonna retract ever moderately nice thing I ever said about him as an architect until he retracts that remark and washes his mouth out with soap!

The fact that those old holes had such minimal "mid body" shaping is one of the very reasons they are so enduring! Talk about tying in well with the land that way! How could it be otherwise, in many cases that's because they're the way the land always was in the first place!

Nicklaus sounds like the worst of the modern age Swinemeisters!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just to play devil's advocate, let's examine Quaker Ridge.
 
I count about 13 holes with a variation of greenside bunker left/green side bunker right.  Almost identical fairway widths, granted tree planting not Tillies work, but I'll bet they were similar width when the course opened, just wider.  I have only toured the course, and not played, but how different are the putting surfaces?

What is so classic about that course, a Tillie classic/near classic, and near Winged Foot,  that a player and architect of JN's caliber wouldn't say to himself, "You know, I think I could do some better holes, and perhaps get some more variety and shot value?"

From Jack's perspective, he's right.  About that, and the shaping!  Of course there was little shaping back then.  Of course there is more now.

[JWL]

Super
Even though there seems to be many that do not care for Nicklaus designs, I will venture in to try to help answer any questions I can to maybe eliminate some of the erroneous perceptions about Nicklaus's work, at least over the past 20 years.  Your query about Jack designing to favor the high fade is really an old cliche.  Jack admitted to doing this early in his design career, but over the past 20 years he makes a conscious effort to balance the amount of right and left holes and green axis.  I know I am opening myself up for some criticism on this board, because I have been scanning for a period of time to get the jest of the discussion.  This is the first time Jack's work has come up for discussion while I have been viewing, so for those really interested I will try to answer questions about the courses I am familiar with.  I will try not to be defensive or defend our work.  I realize it is quite often not what most of this board likes but we are proud of our work, as I'm sure any architect would be.  Thankfully, many golfers like our work also.

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEPaul,
Yes, he did.

Jeff,
I wouldn't expect JN to think he couldn't build better holes. He rose to the pinnacle of one career, why not another?
I just question the belittlement of other's work, good work at that. Why? It isn't necessary or productive. Did he think he needed to show that what he was doing was in some way better? I may be missing something here.

JWL,
I recently saw plans for the signature course in Amenia. There appears to be a good variety of well routed holes over some interesting terrain. Is there anything new or different in the design that you may be willing to share?

[Doug Wright]

JWL,

Welcome and thanks for venturing forth onto this DG. Re Nicklaus I've played several of his courses and some I like, some I don't. I was a member at Meridian GC south of Denver for many years. It was built around 1985 and clearly reflects Jack's "early" style with a predominance  of L to R holes and greensites. The bowls carved into the greens were a bit repetitious too. I just played it again last week after a long hiatus and post-GCA enlightenment and came away feeling better about the course. Though the L to R issue remains, the greens are better than I remember. Castle Pines GC was built around the same time, and it has some of that L to R but not nearly as much and the collection bunkers are strange. It has a great routing that uses the elevation changes really well. Castle Pines GC has really been changed over the past 10 years, though, so it's much less Jack's design now.  Castle Pines CC, which is on adjacent property, suffers from being located in much more severe topography. The 9th and 18th holes there are really bad, like JN ran out of room and needed to get them back to the clubhouse (or at least the area 150' below the clubhouse). I think the Jack N and Co. of today would do a much better job routing that course just from experience alone. I've also played Breckenridge, a public course in the Colo mountains done in the late '80s I think. I think it's very well done, with very good greensites and less earth moving than his other '80s work that I've seen (the worst example of too much earth-moving, mounds etc. was CC of The Rockies outside Vail, another mid-80s project). My favorite Nicklaus course is a more recent effort, Cabo del Sol in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico. Very good routing, some excellent use of the seaside land and a worthy combination of holes that seemed less forced than some of his '80s work.

Again, appreciate your jumping into GCA and look forward to your comments.

All The Best,