The best piece of land ever for golf...

« **on:** July 20, 2006, 11:18:32 AM »

I guess this has been said by architects a few thousand times over the years. Gary Player has been lucky enough to have had every site perfect for golf

.

But seriously, who can lay claim to this? Jordan's post about using the earth got me thinking, what is the best piece of golf property ever? Would anyone go to St Andrews today and look at that land and drool? Did C&C win the lottery when Mr Youngcap gave them a phone call? Does Mike Keiser owns it already and will not tell us about it?

My vote (without even seeing it) is Cypress. The 15th and 16th are enough for me.

« **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:57:57 AM »

And Gary Player found the hills of WV for 'The Raven'. Perfect property indeed!

Doug

« **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:59:04 AM »

From what I have not seen I would think Pebble is on better land than Cypress...

« **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:59:20 AM »

Crail, Machrihanish, Cruden Bay, Royal Dornoch, TOC, North Berwick all are on great parcels of links land by the sea. It makes one think. As much as I love Cypress Point, it is not links land nor does it play fast and firm.

« **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:15:22 PM »

It is impossible to judge that, because the land is only perfect when it is married to the perfect routing plan.

You can have a sensational piece of land for golf, and yet the result will be disappointing if the topography produces a dead-end in the routing; if there is not quite enough land; if the soils aren't right; and most of all if the regulating authorities or the developer or the engineers or any other person will stand in the way of building the best possible course upon it.

Barnbougle and Pacific Dunes were tremendous sites but in both cases it took a long time to find a routing which was worthy of them.

« **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:22:18 PM »

Tom,

Thanks for the answer.

John,

I've played Pebble and loved it, but I guess I was just a little more interested in what may have been down the road.

« **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:30:25 PM »

Wait!

Haven't I read several times here that Bay Harbor in Michigan was the 'perfect' piece of land, and that EVEN Art Hills could not do worse than mediocre on it?

So THAT must be what you are lokking for Dale

Doug

« **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:33:36 PM »

Quote from: Doug Ralston on July 20, 2006, 12:30:25 PM

Wait!

Haven't I read several times here that Bay Harbor in Michigan was the 'perfect' piece of land, and that EVER Art Hills could not do worse than mediocre on it?

So THAT must be what you are lokking for Dale

Doug

That must be one hell of a site then. How about courses that are not on the water?

« **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:40:50 PM »

Easy;

Eagle Ridge in E KY is all mountains and chasms, quiet, nature-filled; and tough as hell. A true blast to try.

IF you like mountain golf, you will appreciate the lung-expanding and mind-expanding beauty of it. No oceans near though.

But it, too, is Art Hills ...... sorry.

« **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:43:13 PM »

Sorry Glenn;

Couldn't resist. I am afraid you WILL eventually get intrigued enough to go up there ........ then beat the holy crap outta me after you come back down. ROFL

Doug

« **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:48:30 PM »

Doug,

You are killing me!!

I am really intrigued, but I will have to get permission from Jones, Sobieski and Wigler first. I hate you for making me want to play it.

Rumor has it that Doug Sobieski played a Hills course recently, and for the second time no less.

« **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:01:50 PM »

What about that land in Aberdeenshire?

How about the land at Pacific Dunes??

« **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:24:51 PM »

Jordan:

The site in Aberdeenshire is a great example. I've seen lots of pictures of it but I have never walked it.

It COULD be the greatest site ever, but it is also possible that the dunes are somewhat too big so that it's hard to connect golf holes together, or that the course has to be built on such a big scale that some of it is forced well inland so those holes can't stack up.

I'm sure Mr. Trump will get it all figured out, though.

« **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:26:10 PM »

I put Pacific Dunes in that best of the best category. I think the wind blows a bit hard in Oregon for it to be in the best on earth category.

« **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2006, 02:26:15 PM »

Dale McCallon,

Bill Coore stated that he thought the best land for golf in America was in the Sand Hills of Nebraska and surrounding areas.

That's an awfully big piece of property.

« **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2006, 02:53:43 PM »

Patrick Mucci,

Thank you for that bit of knowledge. I guess my guess that maybe C&C had won the great American land lottery was correct.

« **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2006, 07:11:45 PM »

Ballyneal is built upon a very nice piece of golf land. Perhaps a bit too undulating for some. Lots of variety. Pure sand dunes. Little turtles.

Putting in my periodic plug for Royal Holyoke.

« **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2006, 08:06:47 PM »

I certainly hope it is still yet to be discovered....

« **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2006, 08:13:23 PM »

Kevin:

I am POSITIVE that there are pieces of undeveloped land out there which are better than any course yet built. It's just a question of whether someone develops them, and if the architect does his best job ever when the moment arrives.

« **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2006, 08:14:17 PM »

I thnk Sand Hills is on the purest of ground for a golf course but for me the best pience of land is like Sand Hills and on the sea.

« **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2006, 08:19:43 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on July 20, 2006, 11:59:04 AM

From what I have not seen I would think Pebble is on better land than Cypress...

John

Pebble Beach may have more ocean frontage, but Cypress Point has the most magical dunes area in the middle of the course. I would happily play just the dunes area (eg 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12) and be content with the views on 15, 16 and 17. That is why I believe Cypress Point has better land than Pebble. It combines coast, dunes and forest in such a tempting and constantly transitioning manner. I expect this is the 'routing' aspect that Tom Doak refers to.

As for the best piece of land, well Dornoch would be hard to beat. The use of the different shelfs of dunes is just wonderful.

James B

« **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2006, 09:05:55 PM »

Royal County Down has it all, mountains, a beautiful town, massive sand dunes, elevation change and ocean views.....and it's in Ireland.

« **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2006, 09:28:19 PM »

I have no doubt that there are millions of acres of perfect ground out there to route golf, both by the sea and on inland oceans of sand like sand hills. I'd bet there is actually a perfect piece of ground in Iraq!

But, that don't mean crap. There is no shortage of land, just an abundance of regulation, and too many perfectly remote and unworkable proximity to markets and service/supplies.

I still say, I had found among the most perfect pieces of available ground I've ever seen for golf, including BallyNeal, Wild Horse, and Bayside. I'd put it up there with SHGC and Prairie Club. And, it is fairly proximate to a small market. But, it is near North Platte, and that area of the sand hills is simply becoming an overcrowded golf market. And, I can't take that much risk.

$:-\$

« **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2006, 09:52:11 PM »

RJ have you seen any market studies on what that market can bear for the Sand Hills, Ballyneals, Dismal River and Prairie Club typ facilities?

« **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2006, 10:08:45 PM »

I will have to agree that THEE BEST land is yet to be discovered. Especially since my future golf club project has not been built yet.

In general, a perfect piece of land will drain well, provide some elevation change, provide good water at no charge, and abundant rounds. Construction cost will be low to provide plenty of revenue for years of success.

Sand Hills, Ballyneal, and Pac Dunes comes very close, but I do not own them.

Troy

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