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rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2006, 10:58:33 PM »
If they had the dogleg left with a pond blueprint lying around, they must have been looking at it in a mirror when they built #11...

;)

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2006, 11:02:37 PM »
No, just because the middle holes are not as strong as the first 6 or 7 does not make the course lite. It is a great course with 18 very good holes and a great collection of par 3's with I think the par 5's are as good as Pacific Dunes. It suffers from the neighborhood not lifted by it. Much like Spyglass with Pebble and Cypress.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2006, 12:40:19 AM »
I played Bandon Trails today with Cary Lichtenstein and our wives and four really good caddies.  

For the record, the remarks earlier this week about poor food and service at Bandon Dunes, and in the past about inferior caddies, are off the mark based on our experience.  Other than some kind of a problem with tepid decaf coffee, everything was first class.  The rooms (Chrome Lake double) are tasteful and comfortable with wonderful natural landscaping.

Also for the record, I wish I had Cary's golf game.  He hits a very consistent and solid draw on most shots, and has a wickedly effective short game.

We played Pacific Dunes yesterday and it remains my favorite public access course in the U.S.  And in my top 5 in all categories.  There are simply no uninteresting holes and every hole is unique and different.  I first played the course in 2001 shortly after it opened.  It looked then like it had been there forever and it really hasn't changed much since then. The greens were deliberately a bit fuzzy so they can be cut very close for the Curtis Cup ladies in 10 days or so.  It would be great to see top notch players duking it out in match play.

With regard to Bandon Trails, bravo to C&C for a very solid course.  The start and finish in the dunes are terrific, although #1 is a pretty benevolent starter IF you don't drive it into the left bunkers.  The last four into the wind are tough, particularly #16 which is even tougher than Black Mesa's "Stairway to Heaven" #16 except for a less difficult green site. Up the hill and into the wind for 540 makes #16 a beast.

The par 3s are very good, from the dell at #2 to the lengthy #12 with wide open run up area at 230+ yards, to incredible #5 with swale of North Berwickian proportions, to into the wind #17 surrounded by deep bunkers.

I found the greens to be less complex than other C&C greens such as Cuscowilla and Friars Head, but large and would be very difficult at higher speeds.

In my opinion, Matt overstates the weakness of #7-12.  Not every hole is world class, these holes are varied and in lovely parkland setting when constrasted with the other properties.  I thought #11 offered a great risk/reward if willing to take on the bunker, as an additional 50-60 yards will result from hitting the downslope on the right line.  Cary and I both played left of the bunkers and were left with 170 yard shots with the dangerous lake to the right of a left-to-right green.

#8 too easy?  What did Jim Murray say about Riviera #10? Something about a tart who sits at the end of the bar in a very short miniskirt?  Any kind of draw at all with driver is almost bound to wind up in those nasty bunkers left.  And the pitch after a layup is no simple shot into that crowned green.  A good short par 4 should be tempting and #8 certainly is.

Granted #10 and #9 are not equal to #15 or #18 for example, what's the secret to a good routing?  Pace, changes in tempo, variety, all building to an exciting finish.  Almost by definition you have to have some more relaxed holes to have a dynamic routing!

Bandon Trails is a great addition to the Bandon Dunes golf resort rota.  The parkland / dunes setting is a solid complement to the dunes excitement of the first two courses.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2006, 07:06:00 AM »
I agree with Bill's assessment of #8 at Bandon Trails.  I think it's a terrific little hole.  If somebody plays it their first time and knocks it right up in front of the green, they might be forgiven for thinking it's simple ... but you will NOT knock it right in front of the green every time, and when you don't, it is a really testy little par 4.

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2006, 07:39:28 AM »
I agree that #8 is good.....a full little hole.  The front and left portions of the green are among my favorite green areas on the course..........with the slight right to left cant of the fairway, it's really easy to get the ball moving left and off the green, where it runs away for nearly forever.  There are no flat spots on the green....subtle breaks everywhere.

I've learned to crowd my tee shot against the left fairway bunker so I can play against the tendency of the green to move balls left.  Even left and below the fairway bunker is preferable to a tee shot down the right side, IMO.

Good hole!

Tom
the pres

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2006, 10:57:13 AM »
I agree with Bill's assessment of #8 at Bandon Trails.  I think it's a terrific little hole.  If somebody plays it their first time and knocks it right up in front of the green, they might be forgiven for thinking it's simple ... but you will NOT knock it right in front of the green every time, and when you don't, it is a really testy little par 4.

Tom D,

You agree with Bill?  Didn't I say the same thing about 20 posts ago?  What am I, invisible? :)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 01:02:47 PM by Tim Pitner »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2006, 11:24:02 AM »
I agree with Bill's assessment of #8 at Bandon Trails.  I think it's a terrific little hole.  If somebody plays it their first time and knocks it right up in front of the green, they might be forgiven for thinking it's simple ... but you will NOT knock it right in front of the green every time, and when you don't, it is a really testy little par 4.

You agree with Bill?  Didn't I say the same thing about 20 posts ago?  What am I, invisible? :)

Tim, did you mean to say, "What am I, chopped liver?"  ???

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2006, 11:28:51 AM »
I agree that #8 is good.....a full little hole.  The front and left portions of the green are among my favorite green areas on the course..........with the slight right to left cant of the fairway, it's really easy to get the ball moving left and off the green, where it runs away for nearly forever.  There are no flat spots on the green....subtle breaks everywhere.

I've learned to crowd my tee shot against the left fairway bunker so I can play against the tendency of the green to move balls left.  Even left and below the fairway bunker is preferable to a tee shot down the right side, IMO.

Good hole!

Tom

Tom, thanks for coming out to say hello when we were teeing off yesterday, it was nice to meet in person.  You work at a wonderful place!  Everything is just first class, and I love the natural surroundings at the Chrome Lake cottages.  

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2006, 11:42:40 AM »
I agree with Bill's assessment of #8 at Bandon Trails.  I think it's a terrific little hole.  If somebody plays it their first time and knocks it right up in front of the green, they might be forgiven for thinking it's simple ... but you will NOT knock it right in front of the green every time, and when you don't, it is a really testy little par 4.

You agree with Bill?  Didn't I say the same thing about 20 posts ago?  What am I, invisible? :)

Tim, did you mean to say, "What am I, chopped liver?"  ???

I prefer the "what am I, invisible?" line, but I interpret it to mean the same thing.  I don't care for liver so I'd rather not invoke the imagery.  I know I'm not chopped liver.  As my 3 year old daughter can tell you, I am at times invisible.  

Matt_Ward

Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2006, 11:44:40 AM »
Bill McBride:

Have to take issue with your take that the 16th at The Trails tops the 16th at Black Mesa for overall demand. You must have allowed the headwind you faced at The Trails to effect your judgement -- with all respect.

The 16th at Black Mesa doesn't need wind to extract a heavy toll for the poorly played shots from beginning to end.

I too like th 16th at The Trails -- but the beauty and rigors you get at BM in NM gets the nod in my book.

Bill -- my standard for the middle holes was not "world class" but holes that don't provide a solid undercutting of what comes before and after them. There is a considerable falloff in terms of the details, routing and overall challenges / diversity you see with the middle holes that I have already outlined.

The thing going for The Trails is that it is part of the MECCA OF GOLF HERE IN THE STATES -- Bandon Dunes Resort. It also helps that the most favorite duo here on GCA is responsible for its design -- C & C. Clearly, the course has benefited from this combination of circumstances and I have added that the beginning and conclusion of the course is solid. The middle holes suffer fatique because the terrain is not that grand and as a result you get plenty of filler without any real depth that leaves you speechless. Put the 8th hole anywhere else -- not at Bandon and not assocuated with C&C and you'd be lucky if you got as much as footnote of interets.

P.S. The 17th is a fine hole but isn't the equal of the 16th and 18th that bracket it. Wind in one's face has a tendency to distort things just a tad.

 

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2006, 11:53:59 AM »
Hmm Matt might be softened up by the body blows.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2006, 11:58:50 AM »
Matt,

What's your criticism of the 17th at Trails?  I'd rate it over both the 16th and the 18th.  In fact, I'd say it might be the best par 3 on the resort.  Pacific Dunes #11 would certainly be in contention as well.  Bandon Dunes #12 would show.

Matt_Ward

Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2006, 12:25:08 PM »
Tim:

The 17th benefits from having to handle the strong in-your-face wind direction that many encounter when there during summer months as it blows in from the north.

Compare the likes of the two par-3 which are so near each other -- the 5th and 17th. Hands down the 5th is miles and miles beyond the 17th. I could sit on the tee at #5 and be content for an entire afternoon trying to shape the perfect shot to the varied pin placements.

The framing of the bunkers is fairly straightforward, although the one that hugs the right side is nicely placed. Frankly I just don't see the details the C&C duo are capable in producing. The hole looks great -- it just doesn't play as well as it appears from the eye for me. When I think of the final five holes at The Trails the 17th is the one I see as the weakest of the lot coming home.


rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2006, 12:27:33 PM »
What does everyone consider to be the best pin on 5?

Though it was not there on our trip, I liked the little saucer on the right hand side, upper portion of the middle tier...the smallest (I think) spot it could be on.  

I suppose the easiest is the middle tier left hand side.

Only played the hole once and then a second time in driving rain so I didn't really absorb much (other than water) on my second play so I may be mistaken on my recollection of the green.


Matt_Ward

Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2006, 12:29:04 PM »
Ryan:

Back right. Hard to hit it that far without going over and that is DEADSVILLE.

Many of other pin placements you can funnel your ball towards.

The back right is a bitch to get close.

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2006, 12:34:04 PM »
The back right is a bitch to get close.

But do you think that makes it the best?  The hardest for sure (and I had a tough time with back left) but if the Bandon courses are founded, in part, on the premise of fun, I kind of like the funnel spots...the one I recall on the right of the center level, is sort of a half funnel...raised a bit to prevent a really lucky job, but still allowing you to use slopes and a backstop, but only if you get it just right.

Someone have a good picture of the 5th green that shows the contours (contour is probably an understatement).

Mine was taken on a cloudy day and is not great.


John Kavanaugh

Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2006, 12:35:56 PM »
WIWA...The front right pin is the best placement as it brings the bunkers into play...

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2006, 12:36:08 PM »
Matt,

I think #17 is actually positioned so that you're hitting toward the ocean--west.  The prevailing wind from the north is a crosswind.  I don't understand why you claim that holes like #16 and #17 "benefit" from prevailing winds.  Shouldn't an architect design holes to work in concert with prevailing winds?  The fact that there are usually strong winds doesn't diminish the hole.  

The bunkering to the left of #17 is pretty cool too and definitely comes into play for a left pin placement and with the prevailing north to south winds.  The green on #5 is more undulating, to be sure, but I prefer #17.    

Matt_Ward

Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2006, 12:40:02 PM »
Tim:

Point blank -- yes or no answer and no tap dances or dodge ball replies --

Which is the better hole -- #5 or #17.

If you think the latter have a good life and enjoy it. We are worlds apart brother on this one.

Eric Olsen

Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2006, 12:47:52 PM »
I personally like 5 better than 17, but don't think 17 is in any respects a weaker hole than the other final 4 at BT.  I generally concur with the criticisms of the middle holes, but really enjoyed 13, not just the approach but the drive offers a great visual with vary different approaches to the green, from the left to the right side of the fairway.  

My criticism is that the 17 tee boxes and 5 green encroach severely on one another.  When we played, the back right pin placement on 5 and the left side tee box on 17 were way too cramped for comfort.  

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2006, 12:57:11 PM »
Matt,

I like #17 better than #5.  Is it a better hole?  I don't know.  This isn't meant as a dodge at all, but I suppose someone could make a case that #5 is better designed, has more going on or whatever, but I'm not sure I care about all that.  I care more about whether I personally enjoy the hole and I enjoy #17 more than #5.  

So, I guess we part ways then, Matt.  And here I thought we'd drive off together into the sunset, playing one of Engh's cartball tracks. :)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 01:09:53 PM by Tim Pitner »

Matt_Ward

Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2006, 01:03:21 PM »
Tim:

I was all set to let you go when you put down Engh. Just a quick question brother Tim -- but how many of Engh's layouts have you played ?

Can you tell me what it was SPECIFICALLY you didn't like?

Try to avoid the tired cliches and other one-liners -- a bit more seasoning works with me. I don't need the fast food replies. ;D


Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2006, 01:09:21 PM »
Matt,

First, it was a joke.  I was riffing off of the phrase "walking off into the sunset," then threw in the driving off in a cart idea and (because of the cart and you) Engh . . . get it?

Second, I've told you before I've only played Red Hawk Ridge, don't like it for various reasons, and that I understand it's not Engh's best work.  I look forward to playing Lakota Canyon, for one.  

Matt_Ward

Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2006, 03:33:42 PM »
Tim:

It helps when people make jokes to use a smiley face so that others don't misinterpret what's said. ;D

Look forward to your comments on Lakota Canyon when you play -- since you are in the Denver area you should see what luck you have on getting on Pradera. Those two layouts, for me that is, represent pure fun and top shelf work by Engh.


Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2006, 04:05:49 PM »
Tim:

It helps when people make jokes to use a smiley face so that others don't misinterpret what's said. ;D

Look forward to your comments on Lakota Canyon when you play -- since you are in the Denver area you should see what luck you have on getting on Pradera. Those two layouts, for me that is, represent pure fun and top shelf work by Engh.

Matt,

I thought I did use a smiley face. ;D  I'll see what I can do about Pradera.  

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