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Ed_Baker

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2006, 12:00:53 PM »
Thomas Edward,

It is truly disgusting, it reminds me of all my wife's Aunts !!

TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2006, 12:23:28 PM »
"Is there such thing as a mower that thins grass rather than cutting it horizontally? Sort of like the thinning scissors at the barber shop?"

BobC:

Obviously not, so my suggestion to you is to take the mention of such a thing off of here immediately, and I will do the same, and go out and invent such a thing or get it invented immediately.

For my suggestion, I'm going to give you a deal and only ask for 50%, and you and I are likely to be sitting in high cotton for the remainder of our unnatural lives.


"Thomas Edward,
It is truly disgusting, it reminds me of all my wife's Aunts !!"

Eddie Baby:

Can your wife's aunts be mowed more than twice a year? If so could The Creek at least have all your wife's aunts in place of high thick fescue?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 12:26:51 PM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2006, 12:37:03 PM »
Tom

I'd be astonished if you hadn't dated one or more of Ed's aunties when at St. Mark's.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 12:37:19 PM by Rich Goodale »

Troy Alderson

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2006, 01:09:34 PM »
TEPaul,

I believe the key to fescue roughs is establish the rough with irrigation, then turn it off.  Maybe a little water (less than one inch per week) during the very hot weather (90F+), just to keep it alive.  Burn the fescue once to twice per year and apply no fertilizer after establishment.

When the fescue roughs become a problem is when it is continually irrigated and fertilized.

Troy

TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2006, 01:24:19 PM »
Troy:

But what about excessive natural rainfall after high fescue roughs have been properly established (obviously by "properly established" I mean high, wispy and thin)?

In other words, I doubt GB courses irrigate and fertilize their fescue roughs and you saw what Bob Crosby said they played like as a result of too much natural rainfall. It seems like there's just no avoiding the fact that they can get thick and ball eating as a result of too much rainfall. If that's not true under any circumstances I'd be pretty shocked.

ForkaB

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2006, 01:44:10 PM »
Troy:

But what about excessive natural rainfall after high fescue roughs have been properly established (obviously by "properly established" I mean high, wispy and thin)?

In other words, I doubt GB courses irrigate and fertilize their fescue roughs and you saw what Bob Crosby said they played like as a result of too much natural rainfall. It seems like there's just no avoiding the fact that they can get thick and ball eating as a result of too much rainfall. If that's not true under any circumstances I'd be pretty shocked.

Tom

The average annual rainfall at linksland such as St. Andrews and Dornoch is 25" compared to 42" in Philadelphia.  We do not have "too much rainfall", you do!  When fescue roughs on linksland get gnarly it is almost always a case of over-fertilisation and irrigation, as Troy says.

Rich

TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2006, 01:56:59 PM »
So Rich, are you trying to infer that with no fertilization of fescue rough in either GB or Philadelphia, that 25" per year of natural rainfall will NOT make fescue roughs thick and ball-eating in GB but 42" WILL make it thick and ball-eating in Philadelphia? Is that what the differential of 17" of annual rainfall does to fescue rough?   ;)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 01:57:50 PM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2006, 02:04:25 PM »
So Rich, are you trying to infer that with no fertilization of fescue rough in either GB or Philadelphia, that 25" per year of natural rainfall will NOT make fescue roughs thick and ball-eating in GB but 42" WILL make it thick and ball-eating in Philadelphia? Is that what the differential of 17" of annual rainfall does to fescue rough?   ;)

That, plus the difference in the soils, Tomasso.  And the phases of the moon.  Look below.  Even Sean Arble concedes for the first time that I might be partially right about something!  Get on the bandwagon.....

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2006, 02:24:33 PM »
TEP -

I really enjoy going to the pharmacy after burning a day off to see the MD about that dark ring that developed after I spent a 6 hour round looking for multiple pearls in all of that hay.  Deer ticks, schmeer ticks, tough it out!!!

I can also get a two for one with the good Doctor on a referal to an orthopedic surgeon to x-ray my wrists after all of chops back to the fairway.

My pro has also delighted in selling more golf balls to replace all of the ones that we lose.  He is so sunburned from giving all of those lessons on how to properly hit a straight 7 iron from the teeing areas.  I guess the next step is to putt up the ribbon-thin, deer-tick-free-strip that leads to our fairways.

The super has been able to go fishing much more often as he has less area to maintain.  Sunblock sales are up due to the length of time it takes to play.

After a few weeks, I have never seen the course so available for play...

Dues are going up to cover member inactivity...

What fun, and it looks so pretty as well!!!

Look how much money we saved by not flying across the pond to play their very wispy thin fescue when we can stay home and play and search through fescue on steroids!!!

I need a rescue from all this fescue!!!

JWK

TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2006, 03:00:32 PM »
"Richsan
You are right far more than not.  If I ever implied otherwise it was the wine talking."

Sean:

I feel the exact same way regarding your remark about Rich, if, and only if, the words wrong more than not are transposed for yours. Rich doesn't know a damn thing about rainfall, not even enough to come out of it and all he knows about soil conditions is if he can remove his head from it easily or not.  ;)


TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2006, 03:08:53 PM »
JWK:

Welcome to the realities of economics both general and specific as it relates to something as apparently simple as high fescue in America.

Doctors depend on it, golf professional sales and lessons depend on it. Sunblock manufacturers depend on it. Even the sport of recreational fishing depends on it (Right DonnieB? ;) ).

Aren't Americans clever? No wonder it's such a snap to us to think we control the world or should.  ;)

Don't you dare talk to me about Lyme Disease. I've had it five times previously and it appears I have it again right now. So what? Do you think I mind supporting Wyeth and its Advil product and the medical antibiotic industry? ;)

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2006, 03:15:10 PM »
JWK:

Welcome to the realities of economics both general and specific as it relates to something as apparently simple as high fescue in America.

Doctors depend on it, golf professional sales and lessons depend on it. Sunblock manufacturers depend on it. Even the sport of recreational fishing depends on it (Right DonnieB? ;) ).

Aren't Americans clever? No wonder it's such a snap to us to think we control the world or should.  ;)

Don't you dare talk to me about Lyme Disease. I've had it five times previously and it appears I have it again right now. So what? Do you think I mind supporting Wyeth and its Advil product and the medical antibiotic industry? ;)

I've had to take the horse pills twice after removing two of those pesky little buggers from fescue laden parkland/links wannabees... >:(  A speedy recovery to you my friend!!!

A comedian once opined:  "The French invented the croissant, we slapped bacon, egg and cheese on it", etc.  I know about economics as I have taken the "xxxxx (fill in non-financial service type industry) Vow of Poverty.  We are the best marketers on the planet... :D

How the officiating coming?  Are you helping the contestants find their balls in the waist high fescue? ;D

JWK

TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2006, 04:04:16 PM »
"How the officiating coming?  Are you helping the contestants find their balls in the waist high fescue?

Of course. How do you suppose I've gotten six bouts of Lyme's Disease?  ;)

I see a lot of really high thick fescue on enough of these courses we hold championships and I can tell you it's making me more inclined everyday to petition the R&A/USGA, AGAIN,  to lighten up on penalizing players for moving their ball during the act of search "through the green". The fact that they make an exception and do not penalize players for moving their ball in the act of search under certain circumstances in hazards seems more illogical to me everyday, even if I do understand why they had to make those exceptions in the first place. I just think it's both silly and too bad that most players search for their golf ball as gingerly as they do in stuff like high fescue knowing that if they happen to step on it they're into a potential 18-2 penalty.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 04:07:46 PM by TEPaul »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2006, 04:09:37 PM »
I venture as far to say the long stuff is integral to a traditional golf experience.

Overly manicured golf courses look out of place to me......but that's probably just me.  

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2006, 04:12:22 PM »
"How the officiating coming?  Are you helping the contestants find their balls in the waist high fescue?

Of course. How do you suppose I've gotten six bouts of Lyme's Disease?  ;)

I see a lot of really high thick fescue on enough of these courses we hold championships and I can tell you it's making me more inclined everyday to petition the R&A/USGA, AGAIN,  to lighten up on penalizing players for moving their ball during the act of search "through the green". The fact that they make an exception and do not penalize players for moving their ball in the act of search under certain circumstances in hazards seems more illogical to me everyday, even if I do understand why they had to make those exceptions in the first place. I just think it's both silly and too bad that most players search for their golf ball as gingerly as they do in stuff like high fescue knowing that if they happen to step on it they're into a potential 18-2 penalty.

Agreed on the search issue...Now if we could get the rationale for not being able to hit a provisional in a potential lost ball/potential water scenario.  What's the thinking here???

JWK


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2006, 04:58:24 PM »
Seems to me a mowing right before seed head production would begin a thinning process...that and burning, as Troy mentioned...

You can't do much about excessive moisture, and this year we had a couple of local courses grow some very thick fescue....not on purpose of course....nasty stuff!
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2006, 05:12:17 PM »
"Agreed on the search issue...Now if we could get the rationale for not being able to hit a provisional in a potential lost ball/potential water scenario.  What's the thinking here???"

JWK:

I've never been too sure why so many golfers have a problem with the prohibition of hitting a provisional ball for a ball that is almost inevitably in a water hazard.

When I say almost inevitably in a water hazard that is because the only prohibition against hitting a provisional ball for a ball in a water hazard hinges on the fact that there needs to be "reasonable evidence" that the ball IS in the water hazard for that prohibition against hitting a provisional ball to exist---and the fact is the test or determination of "reasonable evidence" is damn nigh unto a certainty.

So if there is a possiblity that your ball may not be in the water hazard then you can hit a provisional ball. And if there is undeniably "reasonable evidence" that the ball went into a water hazard, then just play the ball under Rule 26 (Water Hazards).

I've never seen what the big stink is all about other than the fact most golfers don't seem to understand what I just explained there which isn't that complicated if one just reads it once.


And actually there is a Local Rule in the Appendix that can be adopted for various uses of a provisional ball for a ball that may be in a water hazard.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 05:16:00 PM by TEPaul »

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2006, 05:39:30 PM »
"Agreed on the search issue...Now if we could get the rationale for not being able to hit a provisional in a potential lost ball/potential water scenario.  What's the thinking here???"

JWK:

I've never been too sure why so many golfers have a problem with the prohibition of hitting a provisional ball for a ball that is almost inevitably in a water hazard.

When I say almost inevitably in a water hazard that is because the only prohibition against hitting a provisional ball for a ball in a water hazard hinges on the fact that there needs to be "reasonable evidence" that the ball IS in the water hazard for that prohibition against hitting a provisional ball to exist---and the fact is the test or determination of "reasonable evidence" is damn nigh unto a certainty.

So if there is a possiblity that your ball may not be in the water hazard then you can hit a provisional ball. And if there is undeniably "reasonable evidence" that the ball went into a water hazard, then just play the ball under Rule 26 (Water Hazards).

I've never seen what the big stink is all about other than the fact most golfers don't seem to understand what I just explained there which isn't that complicated if one just reads it once.


And actually there is a Local Rule in the Appendix that can be adopted for various uses of a provisional ball for a ball that may be in a water hazard.


TEP -

Please help me here...

Two years ago, my opponent in an interclub match pull-hooked his tee shot left of the fairway corridor beyond a slight rise to the fairway.  We thought that his ball had gone past a stream that stopped before the beginning of the fairway, and that the tee shot was not far enough left to be in a pond beyond the left of the dense trees that is a little "Bermuda Triangle" at my club.

We urged him to hit a provisional, as the caddies positioned in the area did not see the ball enter either lateral water hazard.  He striped his provisional down the middle.

Upon walking towards the caddies, we saw a ball in the first lateral hazard/creek that he identified as his.  He then said that he was out of the hole in the four-ball, and that he had lost the hole in the individual match.  He was quite adamant about his ruling, and I thought that I had learned a quirk in the rules.

Did he apply the rule fairly to himself?

I now frequently prevent people from hitting a provisional if we could not actually see the splash.  I do not like this ruling due to the ambigiuty of:

"the fact that there needs to be "reasonable evidence" that the ball IS in the water hazard for that prohibition against hitting a provisional ball to exist---and the fact is the test or determination of "reasonable evidence" is damn nigh unto a certainty.  (We have plenty of Lateral WH adjoining O.B. that are not visible from the tee).

So if there is a possiblity that your ball may not be in the water hazard then you can hit a provisional ball. And if there is undeniably "reasonable evidence" that the ball went into a water hazard, then just play the ball under Rule 26 (Water Hazards)."

SO, based upon what you have told me above:

No visiible splash = No Penalty for a Provisional, right?

TEP, also, what is the advantage gained by hitting a provisional when in doubt?  Wouldn't we want to speed up play as opposed to a prolonged arguement as to "How many angels can fit on the head of a pin" followed by a long walk back to the original area to put another ball in play?  I've had opponents tell me that since we couldn't see the ball go into the hazard for sure (O.B. or lost ball on the other side due to a lack of a 2nd set of stakes for the far side of the hazard, that I couldn't prove that it went in) - Stroke AND distance please - forced match at the tip of a bayonet (Now where have I heard that phrase before???).

Any clarity here, oh wise one?

JWK

TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2006, 08:16:04 PM »
JamesK:

Since we were talking about whether reasonable evidence existed that a ball was within a water hazard to prohibit a player from playing a provisional ball (instead of proceeding under the Water Hazard Rule (#26) I said something to the effect that if reasonable evidence existed that the ball IS in the water hazard was the only prohibition against playing a provisional ball. That is not correct. For a player to be permitted to play a provisional ball there must also exist a reasonable possibility that his ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds.

TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2006, 08:22:38 PM »
James:

It appears from the way you explained it that your opponent who took himself out of the hole did not proceed correctly or in accordance with the Rules available to him. It does not matter if his ball is found in the water hazard after he went forward to search after hitting a provisional ball. In that case he simply abandons his provisional ball and proceeds under Rule 26. To hit a provisional ball under the Rules all he needs is that there might be a reasonable possibility that his ball might be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds.

The basic purpose of the "Provisional Ball" is to save golfers time under various circumstances of uncertainty as to where their ball may be.

Dave Bourgeois

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2006, 08:36:52 PM »
One of the better public courses in my area seemed to suffer because of the high fescue rough that was grown between holes.  I had spoken with many people about the course who said they would not return because the rough was far too penal.  The tall grasses looked good, but killed pace of play. Lots of the thick stuff was removed this year and the course plays great!  Lo and behold it is more fun because recoveries and creative shots are possible without losing a ball.

I agree with Patrick in that the thick ball eating stuff is fine on wide fairways, as it is an appropriate penalty for missing.  It is when the thick stuff is used to frame holes that are not overly wide that it is an issue.  

Now if it is the wispy stuff, then that's a different story all together!

TEPaul

Re:High fescue rough areas--Yes, No, Maybe, and where?
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2006, 08:47:24 PM »
"I agree with Patrick..............."

DaveB:

Proceed down that road very cautiously, my friend.

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