Tom Doak's Worst Holes - Barbeque the "Sacred Cow"

[Chris Burgard]

Mr. Doak said "I am considered a sacred cow by many, which is too bad.  If that's the case then I have nothing to learn from being here.  Feedback is essential to growth.  I HAVE gotten some good feedback over the years, and I'm even trying to respond to it with some of my current design work, but there are less and less posters who are providing it, and some of them lay it on so thick that it's difficult to cut through the cliches to get to the point."

Why not provide this feedback by telling him which holes we hate/find mediocre/like the least on his courses and why.

Although others will be able to offer much more constructive criticism, I will start with a feeble attempt. Tom feel free to tell my why I'm crazy!

I have only played Apache Stronghold and Black Forest.

At Apache the hole that didn't sit well with me was the 10th. I didn't really think that the tee shot offered any reasonable options for the shorter hitter. I couldn't carry the "serpentine" bunker; hitting it left seemed too much risk for the reward and laying up would have been a guessing game. I ended up in the bunker the first round...aimed further right the second round thinking I would have a better chance to carry but you guessed it...bunkered even further away. A shorter carry to the right side or offering a bunker free route to the right would have helped here.

My memory is foggier with Black Forest and I wasn't as interested in GCA when I played it but I remember thinking that the 16th felt out of place on the course and not because of the presence of the pond. The tee shot seemed awkward and the green out of place. Hopefully someone else can speak more intelligently about this hole.

Hopefully I can get to High Pointe this summer to bitch and moan about how the 18th is a disappointing finish to an excellent golf course.  

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:  The 18th at High Pointe is in a class by itself.  Played there on Monday with two associates, match in the balance, all three of us hit it into the water on 18, I preserved my victory with a tough two-putt 7.

I'll stay off this thread for a while to see what everyone says.  Mr. Naccarato will probably argue with you about the 10th at Apache Stronghold, so watch your back -- I think it was his favorite hole there.

[Tom Huckaby]

This sucks.  Given the whole Sacred Cow issue has me feeling kinda weird and depressed and wishing it would go away, I'd love NOTHING more than to BBQ the great man.... but I've played only two Doak courses:  Pacific Dunes and Stone Eagle.  If there's a hole to hate on PD then I'm Lynn Shackelford.

And even Stone Eagle, hell the one hole I did list as hateable during the discussion about that course was #10, and Doak and Kirk and Moriarty and Naccarato showed me the error of my ways and I realized how wrong I was and came around to appreciating it.

Of course if people are honest, there are others that were mentioned there... we'll see who wants to step up.

As for me, 10 was the only standout and I was wrong about that.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Before I declare it a bad hole I'd like to know if Doak designed the bunker on the corner of the dog-leg 10th at Quail Crossing or if it was an add on..

I really don't like the first at QC...It seems about 30 yds to long which requires a back track to 2 tee..

[Chris Burgard]

Tom H.

I didn't say you had to hate the hole. I offered the option of hate/find mediocre/like the least.

It could be a very good hole on a fantastic course but quite not up to the standard of the others. I suspect that this is the case for PD.

Chin up!!
Chris

[Tim Pitner]

I've only played Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal.  I certainly don't hate the hole, but my least favorite hole on these two courses is probably Ballyneal #9.  I didn't like how the fairway pinched in and practically made you hit 3 wood.  It seemed a little forced to me.  Of course, I ignored the prudent play, hit driver both times I played the hole, went left once and right once, and made double bogey both times.  I showed him.  

[Thomas_Brown]

I've played 4 of Doak's courses:
  Apache
 Stonewall
  Pac Dunes
 Stone Eagle

I thought 2 short par 5's #8, #16 at Apache were a bit of a letdown.  Both try to be strategic.  Both greens are fairly interesting and unique.    #16 is too constraining on the tee shot.  #8 is meant to be a somewhat featureless 4 1/2 par - constrained by minimalism?

I like the #10 teeshot at AS.
Tommy - I can't fathom how it could beat 5, 6, 13, 14, 15, or 17 out there, but I'm not a big punchbowl guy.

Stone Eagle has a few shots that are forgettable.

[Chris Burgard]

Chris:  The 18th at High Pointe is in a class by itself.  Played there on Monday with two associates, match in the balance, all three of us hit it into the water on 18, I preserved my victory with a tough two-putt 7.

I'll stay off this thread for a while to see what everyone says.  Mr. Naccarato will probably argue with you about the 10th at Apache Stronghold, so watch your back -- I think it was his favorite hole there.

Tom,

Thanks for the warning about Mr. N. Thankfully I live in a different country so it will be tough for him to track me down.

Like you, I am happy to hear from someone telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and why.

Cheers!
Chris

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom H.

I didn't say you had to hate the hole. I offered the option of hate/find mediocre/like the least.

It could be a very good hole on a fantastic course but quite not up to the standard of the others. I suspect that this is the case for PD.

Chin up!!
Chris

Chris - even with that, I can't think of a hole at PD that qualifies!  But I do appreciate the effort.  As for Stone Eagle, ok under this lesser definition, put me down for #7.  Oh it does have one of the golf world's coolest views - looking down the valley away from the hole - but as it's played, to me it was just another drop shot, this time to a greensite that was a bit too severe for my tastes.  But as I said on the other thread, push it back to the fake tee below 6, play it from that angle at that distance, and yowza it all becomes cool!

TH

[Jason Topp]

At Barnbougle I thought that the longer the hole was the less interesting it was.  The par threes were brilliant.  The par fives pretty wide open, relatively forgiving and without much to create interest other than the greens and green surrounds.

At Stone Eagle, I almost have a 180 degree opposite view.  The par fives and long par fours are great fun and the par threes are a bit repetitive.

 

[Doug Wright]

I've played 4 1/2 Doak courses thus far. Here are my holes that don't measure up in my not so learned opinion:

High Pointe: I'm not crazy about the first par 3 (#6), seemed very straightforward compared to everything else Tom's done. And then there's #18. In the immortal words of Dan Aykroyd as high-bred but low-brow critic Leonard Pinth-Garnell on Saturday Night Live, "Exquisitely bad..."

Pacific Dunes: None

Apache Stronghold: I don't think #7 and #8 measure up to the rest of the course, perhaps due to the lack of bunkering around the greens, which are subtle but not that exciting. I really like #10, which I think is a very strategic hole.

Ballyneal: I've commented before that #9 does not seem to fit with the rest of the course but I'd need to play it a few more times before saying much more (eg there may be some strategy in tee ball placement for visibility a la Riverdale Dunes #6?).

Riverdale Dunes (+/- 1/2 Doak): Of what I know or suspect Tom did, I'm pretty impressed. I do not think Tom had anything to do with #18, at least I hope not...

[Tom Huckaby]

AHA!

Great review, Doug.  And I guess this does make 3 Doak courses for me because I have played Riverdale Dunes.  But man it's been 15 years or so... Doug, just pick one for me.  18 if you say so.

 

[Cory Lewis]

Ok, I'll take a stab at this, I've played six Doak courses, and worked at one for two years, I absolutely loved Pac Dunes and both courses at Stonewall, and I can't really remember much about Heathland and Riverfront because I played them so long ago, so I will focus on Beechtree.  

If there was one hole at Beechtree that I heard the most complaining about while I was there, it was the 8th hole. Long uphill par 5.   The positioning of the bunkers both in front of and behind the road made it a very awkward layup for the average player and caused numerous problems with trying to pitch out of the bunkers because of there severity.  If one tries to layup right of the bunkers, the fairway is slanted so that most balls run into the rough.  Ok there I have said something non positive about a golf course that I love.  I hope nothing bad happens to me now.

[Doug Wright]

AHA!

Great review, Doug.  And I guess this does make 3 Doak courses for me because I have played Riverdale Dunes.  But man it's been 15 years or so... Doug, just pick one for me.  18 if you say so.

 

TH,

There are a few holes to pick from besides 18 (the worst offender being 15) but I suspect Tom would tell us he had nothing to do with said holes either...  

[Tom Huckaby]

Doug - ok, that's cool.  I do remember the course conceptually but individual holes are not coming back to me very well... isn't there a quite out of place par 4 around water with railroad ties on it on the back nine?  Decent golf hole it it were in Palm Desert or Florida or something... but on that cool linksy course it was a shock to the system.  Is that 15?  Or maybe I'm dreaming?

TH

[Doug Wright]

Doug - ok, that's cool.  I do remember the course conceptually but individual holes are not coming back to me very well... isn't there a quite out of place par 4 around water with railroad ties on it on the back nine?  Decent golf hole it it were in Palm Desert or Florida or something... but on that cool linksy course it was a shock to the system.  Is that 15?  Or maybe I'm dreaming?

TH

Yes that is 15--a tough hole but totally out of sync with the flow of the course.

[Brad Swanson]

I agree with Cory, although Beechtree and Riverdale Dunes are the only Doak/Doakesque(?) courses I have played (Riverdale Dunes is only a partial Doak IIRC).  I've played Beechtree 2X and I still don't know where to lay-up on the second shot where I don't risk bouncing one off of the road.

Cheers,
Brad

P.S.  Hey Cory, I just realized I never sent what I was going to send you months ago.  Keep your eyes peeled next week for a package.

Ok, I'll take a stab at this, I've played six Doak courses, and worked at one for two years, I absolutely loved Pac Dunes and both courses at Stonewall, and I can't really remember much about Heathland and Riverfront because I played them so long ago, so I will focus on Beechtree.  

If there was one hole at Beechtree that I heard the most complaining about while I was there, it was the 8th hole. Long uphill par 5.   The positioning of the bunkers both in front of and behind the road made it a very awkward layup for the average player and caused numerous problems with trying to pitch out of the bunkers because of there severity.  If one tries to layup right of the bunkers, the fairway is slanted so that most balls run into the rough.  Ok there I have said something non positive about a golf course that I love.  I hope nothing bad happens to me now.

[rjsimper]

Out of the two Doak courses I've played (Stone Eagle and Pac Dunes) I'd say that 16 at Pac Dunes gets my nod as the hole I'd least like to see repeated - it's a complete crapshoot as to whether or not you'll be hitting out of a divot, and that pretty much makes or breaks your hole, as you're often hitting a little flip wedge, a shot which has little chance to that green with anything less than a decent lie (especially off the firm turf).

I made birdie there my last round, so this opinion isn't the result of sour chunk-wedge grapes...

[Tom Huckaby]

Doug - aha!  Muchas gracias.  I will respect my memory a little better for now.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Riverdale Dunes?  I find it weird that so many people are going back to the first couple of courses I had anything to do with.

Anyway, I had nothing to do with the 15th at Riverdale Dunes, but (as Donald Rumsfeld would say) I take full responsibility for the 18th.  Of course in its original form we were working around an elevated sewage treatment lagoon to the right of the fairway ... I haven't seen how they made the transition away from that.  At the time, we were trying to make the right-hand fairway a target shot and to force a lay-up if you went left.  Don't forget that was for 1985 technology, too.

[Doug Wright]

Anyway, I had nothing to do with the 15th at Riverdale Dunes, but (as Donald Rumsfeld would say) I take full responsibility for the 18th.  Of course in its original form we were working around an elevated sewage treatment lagoon to the right of the fairway ... I haven't seen how they made the transition away from that.  At the time, we were trying to make the right-hand fairway a target shot and to force a lay-up if you went left.  Don't forget that was for 1985 technology, too.

Tom,

Well all I can say is nice try... (wish I could say that to Rumsfeld too but the consequences are a bit more significant).

[David Sneddon]

Out of the two Doak courses I've played (Stone Eagle and Pac Dunes) I'd say that 16 at Pac Dunes gets my nod as the hole I'd least like to see repeated - it's a complete crapshoot as to whether or not you'll be hitting out of a divot, and that pretty much makes or breaks your hole, as you're often hitting a little flip wedge, a shot which has little chance to that green with anything less than a decent lie (especially off the firm turf).

I made birdie there my last round, so this opinion isn't the result of sour chunk-wedge grapes...

Next time, Ryan, hit a 5iron off the tee - about 180yds - you'll end up in a flat area before the fairway *really* starts to contour, then a PW from there should give you enough stop on those greens. Not many play it that way so there are very few divots to worry about.

More than one way to skin a cat.
 

[Walt Cutshall]

I'm not a big fan of PD #16. I just can't figure out how to play it. If you lay up with an iron down the left side (so that you have a decent angle at the green), you end up in one of the mini kettle holes created by the undulations in the fairway. These are chewed up because so many balls collect in the hollows, so you are hitting out of divots or divot mix.

The direct approach isn't much better. You have a short, sharply uphill pitch and a bad angle at the green. Again this is from a very chewed up area, so you can't control trajectory or spin.

I would love to find a level spot from which to approach this hole, even if it means hitting a 6 or 7 iron in.

On the bright side, I LOVE the green and the bunker behind. That sucker is brilliant.

Of course, after this little ill-tempered par 4, you've got the ultra cool 17th, which challenges your mind and body.  

[Bill_McBride]

Walt, you could always play #16 PD like John "Tiger" Bernhardt did in 2001 shortly after the course opened.

Lay up hell!    Drive the damned green!  He did indeed, to about 40' behind the pin and I believe even two putted.

[Sean Walsh]

Jason,

What is special about the 16th at Barnbougle.  OK it looks pretty the big bunker in the foreground and the view back towards the clubhouse and town.  But what is the strategy to the hole?  

Get it over the bunker by as little margin as possible and hope it runs down somewhere near the pin?  

Maybe I'm not a good enough golfer to see the possibilities.  

I also thought a lot of the longer holes were quite good.  Plenty of room off the tee to make a decision about.  Good greens with plenty of movement that genereally favoured one side of the fairway or the other depending on pin position.