Bobby Jones Question

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ralph,
I don't have the Hamilton book, but I really do think your findings to be way off. 500 yard holes reduced to a drive & pitch in the 1920's?

Come on Ralph! Seriously! I love playing hickories a lot, in fact I attribute my current tempo-conscious swing as a result of playing those jewels, but we've been through this before--the distances aren't even close to what your elaborating on. Especially when taking into account three shot holes with a par of 4 or 2 shot holes with a par of 3 and vice-vesus from many of the designers of the day. Par has never changed on those holes, and many of them were designed for 1 putt pars for strength.

Today, those same holes have been turned into the drive and pitch variety. Also, with hickories, it was also physically and mathematically impossible to attain the swing speeds they get today and remain efficient off of the tee. Look at one of those Cybergolf videos and tell me that Bobby was swinging anything close to the swing speed that Tiger does today!

Another huge factor is that the equipment of today has become so incredibly efficient, rendering a complete mis-hit to nothing more then a slightly missed drive. The distance is still there and they can flog it on from there.

Max Behr was considered a long ball-striker in his day. I've talked to a guy that played in a tournament with him at Portrero /Inglewood CC that he actually hit into. That's how long he was. But Max at his very best hit the ball no more then 265-270-on a really good day.

Here is an article that might be of some interest to prove my point, mind you he did do this with a Floater, which he played his entire golf life, which the feat in itself is amazing. But, and I'll remind you again, that the distances you claim they used to hit it, a complete falsehood. Even with fast & firm conditions.

[Adam Clayman]

" All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. A great deal of experimentation is now going on and it is to be hoped that before long a solution will be found to control the distance of the elusive pill. If, as in the past, the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses and more yards mean more acres to buy, more course to construct, more fairway to maintain and more money for the golfer to fork out. "  - William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

Fork out?

Cha ching!

Now that golf is an industry, it seems obvious that listening to Flynn's quote above is fiduciarily responsible.

I've had a few concerns about Flynn.

When Max Behr started warning of the direction American Architecture was taking, in 1923, wasn't Flynn a huge part of that highly visible architecture?

and,

This discussion solidifies the age old inherent desire for one man to want to have his ball travel farther. While another laments the loss of a bygone era.

Big Yellow Taxi, indeed.

[RSLivingston_III]

Tommy,
Read the first chapter of Vardon's How to Play Golf. Check the last page of that chapter in particular.
I also said this was happening in 1912 as per this book, not the 20's. The teen balls were hotter than the 20's balls, but they were pretty out of control too. One other quote from and R&A rules guy was that the ball manufacturers went on a binge after WW1 to make the balls increasingly hotter.
Hunter in The Links has a LOT of comments on the ball, I only scratched the surface in the interview. One of his quotes sounds very much like this Flynn quote in the last post.

In a 1915 Spalding ad they were showing a 1.710"x1.44oz ball (that floated), on the other end is a 1.685"x1.70oz ball.

You tell me how much difference there would be in performance between these two balls.

When Jones says the longest Carry drive he ever hit was 320 and the longest he ever saw was 340, where did that come from? Was he a BS artist?

Try reading those books with the view I am giving you and see if things they are saying make more sense.
Suspend your disbelief for a while and try it, you might learn something.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:  You've also got to factor in that Vardon is talking about 500-yard holes on links courses with no irrigation systems.  In summer, downwind, that would be a drive-and-pitch for a good player with the small ball.  I remember when I was a kid, the Guinness Book record for "longest recorded drive in competition" was 430 yards, by Craig Wood in the Open at St. Andrews.  [I think he drove it into one of the Eyes on #5.]

BTW, the longest drive I know of now was by Davis Love on the 18th at Kapalua a couple of years ago -- I think they told me it was 487 yards or something just short of 500, wind- and slope-aided, of course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
That is actually what I'm getting at in this--the irrigation pracitices. But Ralph claims that Bobby could carry 300. Ralph also feels that the golf ball was always a long ball and that distances have not changed, and that Hickories--while I love them--are in fact just as capable of performance as the modern day stuff. At least this was his contention in posts before. while I could support that simply because it would be evidence to the USGA that there has been a successful roll-back of the golf ball before--just look at Ralph's numbers, how come it was never publicized--this roll back? Or was it something they did and didn't let the golf world know about it!

While I completely support and love the use of hickory clubs, to claim that today's performacnes are no different--as Ralph has--then I'm in disagreement with that. Fully knowing that irrigation practices, or lack there of, being a major enhancer to those numbers.

Also, 440 back then wasn't as accurate as 440 is now. The ability to accurately measure golf holes has--for the most part--been greatly enhanced and in some ways no different then the distances.

Then of course there is the factual information of how Bobby Jones drove the channel at Pasatiempo #11. Yes, but what part of the channel? As you know Tom, that was one of MacKenzie's brilliant shared fairways with the 12th. I have no doubts that he did. But to claim that he carried it 300 yards with a swing speeds of the day is not only erroneous, it's just mathematically impossible. I attribute it to the factors of the day: accurate distances, irrigation and over-enthusiastic reporting. (which happened a lot. I've come acrossed it many times)

I have some overheads which I'll dig-up later of how Bobby Jones won the US Open at Winged Foot, showing how far he drove the ball. None of those were close to the neighborhood of 300 yards on a course that would allow Bobby to let it all hang out, instead of heroic carries such as the 11th at Pasatiempo, where a drive like that would be risky but worth trying to for a crowd during an exhibition.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ralph Livingston,

Perhaps Bobby Jones was using the expression "carry" in a different context.

There's no way that Bobby Jones could carry the ball 320 yards.

Where did this alleged drive take place ?

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:  I have those same overheads in my file, of Jones' and Espinosa's rounds in the playoff of 1929, and Jones' record round at Interlachen in 1930, too.  As I recall he was driving it everywhere from 220 to 290 with his driver, but I'll have one of my interns look it up on Monday.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

I don't know that there was much support in the 1920s for a return to the guttie ball but there was a good deal of support for what was called "standardization" of a ball at that time. What that standardization should be exactly never seemed clear. I believe in the early 1930s the USGA even legislated a lighter standard ball----perhaps what some called "a floater' but it was immensely unpopular and was dropped within about a year.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks Tom. I have it somewhere also and I'll make sure to post them if I can find them.

That's 290 on dry fairways Ralph. Not 300 yard carries.

And Ralph, I have the utmost respect for you. Please don't ever think differently. I mean that.

[Alfie]

Tommy,

I tend to agree with you Tommy, although these old distance stats are always distorted. As you quite rightly say, "over-enthusiastic reporting" often created the myths that abound !

some refs ;
Tests were carried out on UK courses in 1938.
English Am Champ ; average flight of the ball (without run) was 214.38 yards.
During the Walker Cup. The average was 218.8 yards. This was identical to tests carried out at Troon during the Am Champ'.
At Malone in Ireland ; with the wind against the average was 210 yards.

Portmarnock 1949. Driving competion where the carry was measured ;

J.Bruen = 280 yards
J.B.Carr = 265
J.Carroll = 250
the list continues down to 230 yards carry by various players. Obviously not very many athletic punters on the go in these days ?

On 10th August 1937 at Fonthill, Ontario, a long driving comp was held, and James Thomson, the Scot-American pro, reckoned the longest driver in the US, won the $1000 prize with a drive of 286 yards.

(presumably, all with the best balls of the day !)

Going back to the gutta ; Douglas Rolland was regarded the longest driver of his era and his drives were measured in an Amateur v Pro match after the 1894 Open at Sandwich. Rolland was at the very zenith of his form and manhood and was driving "prodigious" distance. Rolland's longest tee shot was 235 yards and his average was 205 yards.

Of course, it's also been recorded that gutta's had been struck 350 yards or so - fast and firm with a good wind or on frosted ground !

Then we have Tiger Woods belting one of my gutta's at TOC practice ground with his metal mickey. 252 yards !

Oh the legends and myths of the golf ball.  

Rock on Tommy  

Alfie.

[Alfie]

Tep,

R & A 1920. following resolution was adopted ;

On and after 1st May 1921, the weight of the ball shall not be greater than 1.62oz avoirdupois, and the size not less than 1.62" in diameter.... (here's the good bit) ... The Rules of Golf Committee and the Exec Committee of the USGA will take whatever steps they think necessary to limit the powers of the ball with regard to distance, should any ball of greater power be introduced.

  ;)Ahhhh, that's cute  

May 1929. The USGA intimated that they had resolved to adopt "an easier and pleasanter ball for the average golfer", and from 1st Jan 1931 to 31st Dec 1932 the standards of specification of the ball in competitions under their jurisdiction were not less than 1.68" in diameter, and not greater than 1.55 ounces in weight. In Jan 1932 another alteration was made in the specification of the ball, the weight being increased to 1.62 oz and the size remained the same, viz, not less than 1.68".

Alfie

[RSLivingston_III]

Hi, I'm back. Forgot to log out.
Check these, I think they might help in your misunderstanding of the balls from the teens.



The biggest point I want to make is that there wasn't "a ball". Players viewed the game differently and they generally did play the ball that was appropriate to their game. The small/heavy ball was impossible for the average player to keep on the golf course. Distance was obviously important to them, but accuracy was held in a higher regard.

Tom N -
Correction, I don't believe that the 1920's hickory clubs can hit the current balls the same distance as the current model clubs. The technology has dramatically changed in this century and the Woods in particular are at a new performance level. The Irons do still seem to be about equal when compared by length and loft.
I have not been able to do any real testing in the last few years to verify the current comparisons.
To the best of my knowledge I have the only collection devoted to the highest quality playable clubs from the era. Testing has to been done with the best examples to be representative of what might have existed in play in the 1920's. I can also reproduce other eras, but let's get one done before the others.

I am glad some of you guys are trying to play with these clubs. I just hope you understand that it is unlikely that you have used any clubs that are of a "pro" quality, let alone a set of them.
Over the last 80+ years these clubs haven't been treated well. Much of teh whip and torque experianced comes from poor storage in attics and basements. Moisture is a huge problem and has ruined the majority of the existing clubs. My of these are still being put into use as playables, perpetuating mis-conceptions about the clubs.

Was hard and firm, harder and firmer than anything that exists today?
How much harder than Scotland courses, Pacific Dunes, Kingsley, etc?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I have never seen a drive over 350 with a hickory driver on any of these kinds of courses. How did they hit 450-ish? in the teens if the (pro) ball was not hotter then a Pro-V?

[RSLivingston_III]

Pat M.
 I am very sure they knew what carry meant. Read that chapter from Vardon, he is talking about the carry problem.
These ball ads also "explain" it too.

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, the single biggest problem with all these discussions and debates about the distance golf balls go, at any time, is that comparisons have never really been broken down or isolated into the most essential and important factor of golf ball distance---eg carry distance.

When anyone tries to compare where I&B rules and regulations are at any particular time regarding the distance a golf ball is allowed to go it should only be about carry distance, and in a controlled atmosphere test, and not necessarily over-all distance.

The R&A/USGA I&B Rules and Regulations which are the only I&B rules and regulations of importance in the world apparently do factor in a bounce and roll component into their ODS test (Overall Distance Standard) and perhaps their regulations but I seriously doubt they should even do that.

There is no way in the world the R&A/USGA I&B Rules and Regulations can, or even should, control the bounce and rollout of a golf ball as there are so many variables on courses around the world but they certainly can put a rule or regulation or limitation on carry distance under a controlled test atmosphere and condition.

The fact is that in the last decade or so the carry distances particularly elite players are capable of getting has absolutely exploded. That's all the regulatory bodies should worry about---limiting carry distance----the rest is up to golf courses themselves, in my opinion.

And, additionally, although spin rate factors may not be the only component responsible for carry distance and increased carry distance, the fact is that it's a huge component in carry distance, and particularly the exploding increased carry distances in the last decade or so. And the fact is the R&A/USGA I&B Rules and Regulations have NEVER limited the spin rate a CONFORMING golf ball can have.

It is about time that the R&A/USGA I&B Rules and Regulations AT LEAST begin to do that.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ralph,

Great.

Now we're saying that in the early teens that golf balls were hotter then they were in the 20's.......

Simply amazing. You still are sticking by the premise that Bobby Jones could carry a ball 320 yards--which is just about ten yards shorter then Tiger can right now.

Unbelievable! And I want to remind you that we went through this last year too, remember?

Tiger swings a club that is at least double the efficiency and consistency as a hickory player that swings out of his shoes most every tee shot he has the Greed Stick in his hands. And after all of this, he's only going ten yards further on-the-carry then Bobby Jones, who if you look at one of the Sybervision/Callaway videos will show this smooth, glassy swing that doesn't look as if he is moving the clubhead 95 miles per hour WITH both feet planted firmly on the ground and not even a peep of an out burst or scream of energy while doing so.....

Ralph......Come on! ! ! ! !

They weren't even close to the same ball. (distance wise) (today's and 1920's, or 1910's!)
 

[TEPaul]

Ralph:

Are you actually trying to say that Bob Jones could carry a golf ball with regularity about the same distance Tiger Woods can today?

If so, that is totally nuts. That's not even remotely close to factual. Bob Jones couldn't CARRY a golf ball back then within 50-60 yards of where Woods does today. For God Sakes, with the clubs and balls Jones used, Tiger Woods couldn't carry a golf ball within 50 yards of where he does today.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thank you Tom Paul.

We've been this way with Ralph before, and I imagine it will go this way again. I just hope it isn't a party line to sell hickory clubs, as a point to make them a viable, competitive alternative to graphite and titanium, etc. That's complete nonsense.

I do however feel that if one really wants to understand golf as it was meant to be played, recapture the exact feel of what it means to hit golf shots, as well as reknew one's faith in the sport, then Hickory is it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ralph,

They couldn't generate the clubhead speed necessary to propel a golf ball 320 on the fly.

In addition, they couldn't get the launch angle necessary to achieve the required trajectory even if they did achieve the clubhead speed.

In the 70's I played with Evan "Big Cat" Williams who was about 6'5" with a strong basketball players body, and he couldn't carry the ball 320.

I think the comments are prone to exageration.

In addition, the aerodynamics of the ball, quality control with respect to the ball and weight of the ball all combine to guarantee that they couldn't carry the ball 320.

I suspect that this is just another of Grimm's Fairy Tales.

[wsmorrison]

During the 1930 US Amateur, Bob Jones was able to hit on or about 300 yards on some ocassions (holes 8,10,16 and 18) but there's little doubt that he was able to carry the ball that far.  Here is a summary of his shots during the medal competition at Merion East.

Holes 1-3


Holes 4-6


Holes 7-9



Holes 10-12



Holes 13-15



Holes 16-18

[john_stiles]

Another historical note from 1927,   maybe of interest to Bob,   follows from GC Thomas' 1927 book ‘Golf Architecture in America',  chapter XII, The Unknown Equation.

" In the foregoing chapters the known quantities of strategy and construction have been considered. The only factor for which we cannot provide and the cause of many arguments is the golf ball itself. Everyone knows its evolution and how it has been improved in balance, durability, and distance getting. At present we have a standardized ball with a specified size and weight, and it would not seem likely that with such restrictions it could be changed very greatly in playing value; yet the unexpected happens.

Even though the present ball may not be improved by different construction, many persons desire one which they deem better for the game, and this question has been the cause of much comment.  A lighter, larger ball which would float is the suggested change. "

The above quote adds to the topic about the state of discsssions in 1927.

I would agree with TP that a minimum spin rate, as has been discussed since 2002 at GCA, would be a nice item to implement.

The main difference that I see between now and 1927 is that there is much more time, effort, and money being devoted to assuring that the unexpected happens again, as soon as possible.

The fact is that the USGA will always lag behind the manufacturers in the knowledge about any aspect of the ball.  After all, the USGA only tests what they receive.

[john_stiles]

Wayne,  nice post regarding Bobby Jones at Merion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne Morrison,

Thanks for the info, which confirms what I said.

The key hole is # 3 at 195 yards, all carry.

If Jones had to use a 2-iron to carry and reach the green 195 yards from the tee, you can bet he couldn't come close to carrying a diriver 320 yards.

If he was able to hit a 6-7-8 iron into that green, Ralph's argument might have some credibility, but, not when he's got to hit a 2-iron.

# 9 at 170 yards downhill and # 17 at 215 yards, steeply downhill, reconfirm the above.

IF Bobby Jones carried the ball 320 yards, why did he declare that Nicklaus played a game with which he was unfamiliar ?

I rest my case, with evidence provided by Bobby Jones.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Amen!

But somehow I don't think we have convinced the powers that be at Hickory Central in Michigan. I dont' think htere is going to be any convincing Ralph of the facts, when he has so neatly revised them to his own accord--which is perfectly noteworthy in realm of experiencing the Sport though Hickory.

The new ball goes too far-PERIOD....

[BCrosby]

I have a blow by blow account of Bobby Jones's round at Athens CC in 1928. As best I could tell he was very long for the time, much longer than his playing companions Watts Gunn (Ga Tech and reigning NCAA champ) and the no. 1 and 2 players from the UGA team.

Even so, I don't think he hit it farther than 280 or so at best. On the severely downhill 16th his drive might have rolled out to 300 yards. He didn't come close to carrying it 320.

Bob  

[RSLivingston_III]

I am just retelling Jones' quote. Did anyone bother to read it???
I don't think you did, as it has magically turned from the longest Carry drive he ever hit, into something he did regularly. I don't have the book in front of me but that was a hit he decided to do on a 340 yard hole and HE said it crried to the upslope in the front of the green, one hopped and stopped. I believe it was one of the holes at Inverness that Fazio wiped out.
Stop impressing todays golf on what they did then. They rarely swung from their heels. This was back in the day where accuracy and placement was important. They generally were not trying to hit driver as far as possible and then loft Niblicks on to the green from whereever they ended up. Jones said he liked laying up to hit his 4 Iron into the green because of the high confidence he had in the club. It was something around a 6-7 Iron. When was the last time you heard of a pro laying up to a distance that far back?
I believe he was regularly hitting his Driver 260-280, and that was with that 3/4  smooth swing. He does talk about leaning on it for more distance. The quotes are almost always about unusual shots, when they pushed hard on the clubs. The shots at Merion do reflect his 3/4 swing very well. Some of the distances are very surprising how long they are considering what I know about his clubs.
You also have to understand that he wasn't always hitting his driver off the tee. He always had one and at one period he was carrying two Driving Irons.
A couple of things, Tommy, your article supports the distance issue quite well for me. That big, fat, extremely light ball hit into a 2-3 club wind twice to reach 450 yards? That is AWESOME. (If it is called wind, I assume it was in that power range)
The 2 Iron with 195 carry, is actually closer to a 4 Iron. I think that is a good pretty good poke considering that was probably with his 3/4 swing. It might not be compared to the last five years, but I think it is compared to pre-2000.

I can't make my case here giving out a few quotes and comments. This is book material to make the case. There is a lot of info out there and it needs to be assembled it to a resonable presentation. Of course I can't even get you guys to read any of the material I present, a book would be a futile venture.

Thanks Wayne for the Merion shot-by-shot, very helpful.
Could I get that Athens article?
Amazing how consistant he was and what his course management looked like at Merion.
Gotta get back to work.

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