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John Kavanaugh

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2006, 07:53:47 PM »
Quote from: Jordan Wall on July 12, 2006, 06:43:23 PM
Sheep Ranch

Jordan,

I've said this before and I've been to Bandon and have zero interest in seeing the Sheep Ranch.  I am delighted to hear that it has become an overpriced tourist trap and take comfort that I will never go...The thought of playing a routing off the top of the head of some amateur architect pukens me...
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2006, 08:22:59 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2006, 06:57:03 PM
I agree with many of these but I like Tommy's answer best.  It's certainly the best cow logo out there, although Rock Creek's will be a close second ... a cow skull.
...

Doesn't Jawbone Creek in Harlowton, MT already have a cow skull for their logo?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2006, 08:23:50 PM »
Does sacred cow = overrated??
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2006, 08:25:48 PM »
Bill M:  No course is frozen in a time warp.  Most of the candidates for sanctity have seen major changes over the past twenty years, though much of it is restorative in nature.

As for Pasatiempo, they are talking about moving the 17th green thirty yards further back and to the left (hanging out into the ravine) where it was originally located, and expanding the 18th green to the front and left, which is way more severe than what they have now.  They've never brought up changing the contour of the 16th green, but the greenside bunkers are much different than what was there in 1929.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2006, 08:29:08 PM »
Jonathan:

I don't think any of the sacred cows are necessarily overrated -- half the ones named so far are comfortably in the top 50 courses in the world, and I don't think even the detractors really quarrel with their rankings.

But many of them are considered to be one of the top five courses in the world by a couple of people on the board -- and that seems to be the point at which ANY examination of the course touches a nerve.  In that sense, pretty much every course is overrated by someone or other who thinks it's THE greatest beyond debate.  Which is silly because there is no such thing.

Garland:  Is there really such a place as Jawbone Creek?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 08:30:05 PM by Tom_Doak »
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Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2006, 08:31:14 PM »
"Does sacred cow = overrated??

My definition would be "beyond reproach" by some sort of informal concensus.  Whether deservedly or not.

See NGLA
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 08:35:21 PM by Gary Daughters »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2006, 08:35:38 PM »
Quote from: Gary Daughters on July 12, 2006, 08:31:14 PM
"Does sacred cow = overrated??

My definition would be "beyond reproach" by some sort of informal concensus.  Whether deservedly do or not.

See NGLA


Gary,

How is NGLA overrated ?
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Kyle Harris

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2006, 08:39:06 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 12, 2006, 08:35:38 PM
Quote from: Gary Daughters on July 12, 2006, 08:31:14 PM
"Does sacred cow = overrated??

My definition would be "beyond reproach" by some sort of informal concensus.  Whether deservedly do or not.

See NGLA


Gary,

How is NGLA overrated ?

I think they were mutually exclusive statements.
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Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2006, 08:41:06 PM »

Pat ..

Take another look at my post.  
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THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2006, 08:41:21 PM »
Maybe Gary is onto something here.  

The difference between 'sacred cows' and the 'beyond reproaches' is that the sacred cows are still debatable, while the beyond reproaches are not.

JC
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2006, 08:45:56 PM »
Coore and Crenshaw are certainly scared cows, as well as Hidden Creek and Cuscowilla

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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jesse Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2006, 08:58:34 PM »
Shinny..
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Steve_Roths

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2006, 09:16:54 PM »
Isn't Sutton Bay's logo a cow's skull as well?
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Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2006, 09:17:29 PM »
The front nine at Machrinhanish (the new tee at the 1st notwithstanding...)

Merion East? Pine Valley? Wild Horse? Genius, go-it-alone, fanatical-about-one-course architects (Crump, Fownes, others?)

The Redan as a design concept?

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Ryan Farrow

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2006, 09:19:58 PM »
Commenting on golf courses you have not played!


Even if you are not talking about the golf course and you are just talking about distribution on par 3's throughout a round of golf. Then Pat makes a Rainbow thread and Jordan chimes in all because an unnamed person doesn’t like the idea of 6 par 3's on a course even though 5 is perfectly acceptable any day of the week.
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Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2006, 09:22:36 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 12, 2006, 07:49:19 PM
Quote from: Phil Benedict on July 12, 2006, 05:53:38 PM

National Golf Links of America and Pacific Dunes.  The 10th at Riviera.


Phil,

I don't think NGLA is a sacred cow.

If someone has a criticism of NGLA, I'd like to hear it.



Patrick,

Guys on this site speak with such reverence about NGLA, so maybe it's sacred, not a sacred cow.  I know non-GCA's who don't much care for it, probably because it's quirky or pales in comparison to Shinnecock in their minds.  They may also be cretins who think Fazio is the apogee of the golf course architecture profession.  I haven't played it so I am neutral.
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Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2006, 09:29:27 PM »
Quote from: Steve_Roths on July 12, 2006, 09:16:54 PM
Isn't Sutton Bay's logo a cow's skull as well?

So is Tobacco Road's and Bulls Bay's.
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"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2006, 09:43:37 PM »
Quote from: Matt_Ward on July 12, 2006, 06:01:27 PM
Tom D:

Since you asked it -- a Tom Doak designed course. ;D

Few here will venture a straightforward opinion because of the TNT it causes. I, on the other hand, have ventured into plenty of sacred cow areas and still possess my ten fingers -- hoops I just counted them again and have only nine. ;D

I sort of agree with Matt.  People here seem to be reluctant to criticize Tom.  That may be the result of good manners; the high quality of Tom courses; or because Tom is so much better informed about his own designs that engaging him in a debate is a fools errand.
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Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2006, 09:44:09 PM »
Friars Head is somewhat of a sacred cow because:

1. Not many people have seen the course.
2. It was done by Coore and Crenshaw.
3. It's probably very good maybe great (but not perfect) so there's not a whole lot to be overly critical.
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2006, 09:50:48 PM »
The Golf Club?
Pasatiempo?
Garden City?
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HamiltonBHearst

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2006, 09:56:43 PM »


I would list the sacred cows I see on this site but it might get me banned from the clubs.
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Paul Payne

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2006, 10:13:20 PM »
Jeff Brauer's "Jane Mansfield" hole.

Talk about Alps.....
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kevin

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2006, 10:13:52 PM »
I am a huge Raynor Fan, probably because Carmargo was the first of only 4 courses in the top 100 I have ever stepped foot on.  The others being NGLA, Shinnecock and Fishers.  

I am not up on all this as much as everyone else, but I would like to get your thoughts on a few things.

1. Who has a better Punchbowl than Fishers????? Not NGLA in my opinion.

2. Who is or was the best designers of One shot holes? again I have not seen a lot of top 100, but I am not sure you can beat Camargo's 4 Par 3's all are unbelieveable.

Is Raynor a Sacred Cow....My vote is yes.
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T_MacWood

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2006, 10:32:51 PM »
Fishers Island
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2006, 10:42:47 PM »
I have never played it bt seems to me Longaburger is definitely a sacred cow.
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"
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