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John Kavanaugh

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #150 on: July 14, 2006, 08:47:32 PM »
Geoffrey,

Bribery is the initial promise of a ranking and blackmail is the threat of removing said ranking once achieved.  It can't be helped under the current system.  

I am glad to hear that the impovements to Plainfield had nothing to do with the system...thanks.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 08:48:51 PM by John Kavanaugh »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #151 on: July 14, 2006, 08:48:32 PM »
John....wait, ya mean you are not a rater? jaysus.

I am not going back to reread allyopur posts mother
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #152 on: July 14, 2006, 09:23:21 PM »
Geoffrey,

Bribery is the initial promise of a ranking and blackmail is the threat of removing said ranking once achieved.  It can't be helped under the current system.  

I am glad to hear that the impovements to Plainfield had nothing to do with the system...thanks.
I was informed by one of the marketing team at a course near me that they would get a favorable ranking for their new course if they hired a specific architect.  And it was the arcitect that relayed that promise.  they hired him. JK, we feel the same way about the rating system.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 09:24:19 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #153 on: July 14, 2006, 09:40:00 PM »
Geoffrey,

Bribery is the initial promise of a ranking and blackmail is the threat of removing said ranking once achieved.  It can't be helped under the current system.  

I am glad to hear that the impovements to Plainfield had nothing to do with the system...thanks.
I was informed by one of the marketing team at a course near me that they would get a favorable ranking for their new course if they hired a specific architect.  And it was the arcitect that relayed that promise.  they hired him. JK, we feel the same way about the rating system.

Mike

So an unethical architect makes a promise that he can't keep to a marketing team who believes his lies/claims.  Everyone seems to take this in stride without reporting unethical practices and its the rating panels that are at fault?

Perhaps we should do away with democracy or at least our congress because a few representitves take some questionable or illegal junkets on private planes and accept a vacation to Hawaii to study the effects of volcanos so they can save their district in lets say Indiana.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #154 on: July 14, 2006, 09:42:40 PM »
Geoffrey,

I bet the architect keeps his promise...the system is that corrupt.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #155 on: July 14, 2006, 09:53:59 PM »
Geoffrey,

Bribery is the initial promise of a ranking and blackmail is the threat of removing said ranking once achieved.  It can't be helped under the current system.  

I am glad to hear that the impovements to Plainfield had nothing to do with the system...thanks.
I was informed by one of the marketing team at a course near me that they would get a favorable ranking for their new course if they hired a specific architect.  And it was the arcitect that relayed that promise.  they hired him. JK, we feel the same way about the rating system.

Mike

So an unethical architect makes a promise that he can't keep to a marketing team who believes his lies/claims.  Everyone seems to take this in stride without reporting unethical practices and its the rating panels that are at fault?

Perhaps we should do away with democracy or at least our congress because a few representitves take some questionable or illegal junkets on private planes and accept a vacation to Hawaii to study the effects of volcanos so they can save their district in lets say Indiana.

Geoffrey,
No where have you heard me complain of an indvidual rater.  IMHO the rating SYSTEM is a product of the American marketing mentality and is the problem.  The rating system and marketing dollars go hand in hand .  And while I don't think we should do away with democracy...I do think we could do away wth rating. I feel there would be no rating if no courses advertised in the particular magazines.  We have a new course opening this year where the marketing company recommended inviting the raters and giving the round, lunch and hat or shirt and all written off as a marketing cost.  Whether is is intended or not this is what has evolved.  I am not condemning any individual raters....I have many friends that are raters....I am always kidding them about how they are being used by the system....and they know it....some aren't even sure their vote even counts......how do we know????  
As I mentioned in the above post....when someone at the head of magazine rating panel can assure a ranking..why do the individuals matter???  
P.S.  I am not speaking of BK in this post...so you can eliminate that one.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #156 on: July 14, 2006, 09:58:51 PM »
Geoffrey,
...the system is that corrupt.

John - seriously - if you have evidence of corruption and bribery then I'm sure that everyone in the business who are affected would welcome your input. In the absence of such evidence you are just blowing smoke up our *****.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #157 on: July 14, 2006, 11:26:35 PM »
Geoffrey,

Call Geoff Shackelford...this may me the one subject we agree on.  

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #158 on: July 14, 2006, 11:34:11 PM »
  Why it's almost like "A Miracle on 34th Street" - (Macy's and Gimbels)
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #159 on: July 15, 2006, 07:31:07 AM »
So let me get this straight:

IF the pin is up and

IF the hole is playing downwind and

IF a player plays intentionally short

THEN that's what the mound is there for...

otherwise, it was intended as a diversionary pseudo-feature to fool the strategic-thinking golfer?

I ain't buyin' it, not from you... ;D

Sounds like the 18th at Turnberry




Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #160 on: July 15, 2006, 09:19:37 AM »
I ask because we might as well put them on a list and declare them off-limits to criticism, and spend our time discussing other courses which are not beyond argument.

Tom

I believe as there's no such thing as absolute perfection then no course is off-limits when it comes to critcism [even my old favourites TOC, Royal Dornoch and North Berwick  ;)]

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #161 on: July 15, 2006, 10:42:38 AM »
George,
Golf has always been a funny business..just look at the original golf stocks.....business men that would never have made such a stupid decision in their company would fall head over heels to be in a golf stock or golf company.....golfers have a hard time separating the game from the business....why would a golf grip ever go public?  How much $$$ did Greg Norman make off of Cobra??
Most people would not write a will without a lawyer or think they could do knee surgery w/o a doctor yet that same person would attempt to handle $5 million as an architect.  All because he has an idea.  I am not one to discourage people from following their dreams but most people feel they can do this golf architecture stuff...I see it everyday....And in truth they have no idea where it begins and ends....
I see these "design contest" and some guy sends in a 2 dimensional hole design and somebody chooses.  Nothing is stated as to drainage, irrigation grassing etc.  these are just some simple examples.
I have followed college BB for years and have watched how many fans think they can coach....and many have no respect for many of the coaches......only those that win get their respect.....yet there are 300 D1 coaches that have some idea of what they are doing.
Same goes for architects....people only respect those that they THINK are the "winners"....and so we end up with an idividual respect issue yet an overall disrespect for the business because most only know enough to be dangerous and feel they can do the entire process better.  I see it everyday.
Mike


Mike, speaking as someone who enters all those contest, we, or at least I, do it because it's fun. It's an interesting intellectual exercise, and it's fun to do. To me, it's analogous to the various fantasy leagues for sport. It's a way of participating on a very low level in something I really love, the game of golf and its tremendous playing fields. I love the feedback of others telling me what they think is wrong and what they like. In no way whatsoever do I harbor any delusions that I could build a golf course.

And I think there are plenty that respect everyone out there making a living out there in the dirt. The reason "the winners" are so widely spoken of is because there is a certain critical mass that must be attained before anyone or any course can even be discussed.

Look at someone like Kelly Blake Moran. He doesn't have a wide following, but he does have a slight advantage in that the courses he's built happen to be in the neighborhood of a small group of devoted architecture nuts, so his courses get discussed.

I am dying to discuss Rawls, but only a handful of posters have played it and I've discussed it with them already. And that's Tom D, one of the guys I'm guessing you'd lump in with the winners.

If you think that golf course architecture is the only business that gets the type of second guessing from amateurs that one sees on here, you couldn't be more wrong. My piddling little t shirt business draws comments from people I encounter on a daily basis. Everyone seems to know have an idea for a t shirt that will sell millions, and everyone seems to know how to run my business better than me, in spite of the fact that I started it with nothing and have been doing it for 13 years. Some have good ideas, some not, some are insulting, some are complimentary. That's life.

You're in a business that is seen as somewhat glamorous by those outside of the industry who love the game. It's no different from the second guessing that goes on by every couch potato sports commentator who calls into his local sports talk show, criticising the coach or manager. Or every person who's been to a movie, offering his own thumbs up or down, thinking he  has a great idea for a better movie.

I hope I can tee it up at one of your courses someday so we can discuss it on here.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #162 on: July 15, 2006, 11:57:41 AM »
George:

The Rawls Course is only the tip of the iceberg.

Minus the left and right coasts and the folks from Chicago you get a number of other courses in the middle of the USA that are far from sacred cows -- people actually believe that quality golf (national acclaim level) doesn't even exists in these other areas -- and I'm not speaking about Sand Hills and the like.

Frankly, people need to get out and play more than the narrow range of courses that far too often get too much ink even though a certain few of them are world class.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #163 on: July 15, 2006, 12:16:36 PM »
Matt:

They need to get to the Midwest; you need to get overseas more; I need to get to Canada more.  Everybody's got their weak underbelly, but most don't have time to address it.

But, I have been surprised to notice this week that most of the board have played maybe two of my twenty designs.  Collectively, the site has got about every corner of the globe covered (except Asia), but individually, many people's experience is more limited than I would have guessed.

But I can't really point fingers ... I've been dying to start a thread on Jeff Brauer's best and worst golf holes to give him equal time, but I have only seen one of his courses myself.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Not made of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
« Reply #164 on: July 15, 2006, 12:27:01 PM »

But, I have been surprised to notice this week that most of the board have played maybe two of my twenty designs.  Collectively, the site has got about every corner of the globe covered (except Asia), but individually, many people's experience is more limited than I would have guessed.

Perhaps it's because you, Mike Clayton (and Neil Crafter) are about the only members of this board who can figure out how to make a trip to Barnbougle and Cape Kidnappers a business expense.  :)

I can probably insert a trip to St. Andrews Beach into my next trip to Australia because one of our good friends is the GM/General Manager at a Mornington Peninsula winery, but I'm going to have to do some fast talking to add a two-day side trip to Tasmania for a couple of rounds of golf.
Next!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #165 on: July 15, 2006, 12:32:12 PM »
Anthony:

I'm not exactly made of money either, though I'm doing better nowadays.  I got around more in my student days when fancy accommodations were not necessary; I believe my trip to Great Britain and Ireland in 1982 cost $9,500 all in (for nine months), including golf and film!

But there are some very good wineries on the way from Launceston to Barnbougle; I think Pipers Brook was one of them.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 12:34:02 PM by Tom_Doak »

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #166 on: July 15, 2006, 12:44:14 PM »
Anthony:

There are some very good wineries on the way from Launceston to Barnbougle; I think Pipers Brook [GOOD PINOT!] was one of them.

I will include this fact in my formal proposal to the wife.... :)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 12:46:19 PM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sacred Cows
« Reply #167 on: March 01, 2012, 06:15:55 PM »
I think Seminole and Ballyneal are sacred cows on this site.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Anthony Gray

Re: Sacred Cows
« Reply #168 on: March 01, 2012, 06:20:37 PM »


  NGLA. It has alot of blind shots early in the round but nobody mentions it.



George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sacred Cows
« Reply #169 on: March 01, 2012, 06:25:25 PM »


  NGLA. It has alot of blind shots early in the round but nobody mentions it.


Anthony - is that a good thing or a bad thing (the blindness)?
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sacred Cows
« Reply #170 on: March 01, 2012, 06:29:10 PM »


  NGLA. It has alot of blind shots early in the round but nobody mentions it.


Anthony - is that a good thing or a bad thing (the blindness)?

So blind is now a negative? Somebody better tell the raters. ;)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Sacred Cows
« Reply #171 on: March 01, 2012, 07:44:14 PM »
I think Seminole and Ballyneal are sacred cows on this site.

Mac:

I don't think Ballyneal is a sacred cow.  I think there are a lot of people who are hoping to gain access to it, so they suck up.  That's probably also true of Seminole -- even though I don't believe there is a single person on GCA who can host people at Seminole.  Same goes for National, incidentally.

Perhaps some people are afraid of criticizing these courses for fear of looking stupid.  That's not the same thing as a sacred cow.


Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sacred Cows
« Reply #172 on: March 01, 2012, 07:53:51 PM »
Tom,

Do you think the concept of Askernish is a sacred cow?  Having not been there I am curious to see whether it is really 'cool' or just 'cool to say its cool'.  I suppose not enough people will have seen it to make that call yet.  Perhaps not specifically Askernish but that sort of concept.  If it was readily accessible to the mass market would they embrace it?

I cant remember hearing one negative comment about Askernish, when I for one have said a similar project like Mach Dunes that just doesn't do it for me.

Simon
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sacred Cows
« Reply #173 on: March 01, 2012, 07:55:45 PM »
Pebble is at least a semi-sacred cow...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sacred Cows
« Reply #174 on: March 01, 2012, 07:59:22 PM »
Jud,

Really?  People say its overrated quite often.  I have never played but walked it quite a few times.  Looks pretty good to me but I have definitely noticed GCAers saying its NOT all that.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.