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TEPaul

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2006, 10:50:57 PM »
Is this the fastest thread in the history of GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com to three pages and fifty posts? I think so. Fifty posts and three pages in about five hours is extremely rapid action.

Good for you Mr Doak. Excellent thread.

I think some other threads should be initiated, such as;

Is GOLFCLUBATLAS.com;

1. Elitist in too many ways?
2. Far too one dimensional?
3. Undemocratic?
4. Just another example in golf and architecture of--"it's my way or the highway?"

For my part, all I can say, is, you know me----I'm a huge advocate of "The Big World" theory---which essentially is.

"Golf and golf course architecture is a great big world and there really is room in it for everyone! ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 10:59:12 PM by TEPaul »
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Doug Ralston

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2006, 10:53:59 PM »
I would still have to go with 'walking golf' as the Most Sacred Cow here. Dunno why......seems to limit your choices sadly.

Doug
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2006, 10:59:26 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2006, 08:25:48 PM
Bill M:  No course is frozen in a time warp.  Most of the candidates for sanctity have seen major changes over the past twenty years, though much of it is restorative in nature.

As for Pasatiempo, they are talking about moving the 17th green thirty yards further back and to the left (hanging out into the ravine) where it was originally located, and expanding the 18th green to the front and left, which is way more severe than what they have now.  They've never brought up changing the contour of the 16th green, but the greenside bunkers are much different than what was there in 1929.

I was being kind of ironic by talking about the time warp.  "Sacred cows" would imply no changes; how can you change a sacred cow?

That is interesting about #17 green.  That would be a great hole.  Any idea why the green was moved forward?  Maybe those houses on the left that get pretty close?

So rather than flattening the existing greens, the plan is to make #18 even more contoured and not change #16?  #17 has one of the most sneaky contoured greens (Ask Dave 'Shivas' Schmidt!), the green comes down off the hillside in steep and slick fashion.
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Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2006, 11:11:38 PM »
I opened this 'Sacred Cows' thread expecting to find out that it was the name of Tom Doak's latest course design job. Having read all fifty posts I kind wish that it were still were true... I'm seeing a halo made out of cowskin for the logo.

TD, I can send you my address for my check later. ;)
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Next!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2006, 11:19:26 PM »
Anthony:

Actually, the working name for our next new course is "Wicked Pony".

I just build them, I don't name them!
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Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2006, 12:36:07 AM »
Tom:

      It's a little late to really get this party started. ;)

But I would be remiss if I neglected to first thank you for your gracious invitation to your new creation in Colorado.

Two weeks ago another fine member of Ballyneal did in fact extend the same invitation to see and play it, an invitation which I have already accepted. I will look forward to heading to Holyoke  either later this summer or sometime next.

But, again, thank you very much for thinking of me.

If I have the time I will "comment" on your somewhat questionable topic sometime on Thursday.

Good night.





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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jordan Wall

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2006, 12:42:18 AM »
Sand Pines

Forgot about that one
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Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2006, 01:06:51 AM »
Quote from: Jordan Wall on July 13, 2006, 12:42:18 AM
Sand Pines

I don't think that fits the commonly accepted definition of a SC:

Quote
Sacred Cow

A person or thing immune to criticism or questioning.  This term alludes to the honored status of cows in Hinduism, where they are a symbol of God's generosity to humankind. It has been used figuratively since about 1900.

Off the top of my head, I'd list:

Firm & fast
Caddies
Ground game

I don't think any of the courses talked about here are immune from questioning...NGLA and Sand Hills to my mind haven't been granted immunity...the fact is there is little to criticize about each course and hence they appear relatively unscathed compared with the other courses in the upper echelon.  



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"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2006, 01:09:55 AM »
Ran Morrissett

Sorry, I feel bad even saying it, and for all I know he might just be that good of a guy. But I had to just put it out there...
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Mark_F

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2006, 03:44:55 AM »
Royal Melbourne (West)

Kingston Heath

Barnbougle Dunes - although if MC's name were removed from the credit list it would be a different matter.

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Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2006, 06:14:49 AM »
MUFC.  well at least to Peter McKnight. ;D
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Let's make GCA grate again!

T_MacWood

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2006, 07:04:44 AM »
Old Tom Morris is the biggest sacred cow followed closely by all the big name golden age architects: Ross, MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Colt, Raynor, Macdonald etc.
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Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2006, 07:14:35 AM »
All the great, ultra exclusive clubs.  We're scared we won't be invited back.
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can't get to heaven with a three chord song

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2006, 08:22:18 AM »
I would think most everyone would have a sacred cow from golf course, to architect, to some aspect of golf that they just love without being able to explain it.

It just stands to reason that there must be room for a sacred cow in the big world theory.

Everyone has a sacred cow, trust me on that one.
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John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2006, 08:55:21 AM »
By architect:

Sacred             MacKenzie
                      MacDonald/Raynor
                      C&C
                      Doak

Not quite           Ross
sacred              Tillinghast
                       Thomas (or does belong above?)
                        Hanse
                        Silva

Heathens          Fazio!!
                      Rees
                      Nicklaus (or is he moving up?)

Lowest circle     Arthur Hills
of hell               Others?


Who else belongs where?  Other categories?  Who disagrees?

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Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2006, 09:11:31 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2006, 11:19:26 PM
Anthony:

Actually, the working name for our next new course is "Wicked Pony".

I just build them, I don't name them!

What the .....? Since when did people start naming golf courses after strip clubs... ??? ??? ???
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2006, 09:15:57 AM »
Quote from: John Shimp on July 13, 2006, 08:55:21 AM
By architect:

Sacred             MacKenzie
                      MacDonald/Raynor
                      C&C
                      Doak

Not quite           Ross
sacred              Tillinghast
                       Thomas (or does belong above?)
                        Hanse
                        Silva

Heathens          Fazio!!
                      Rees
                      Nicklaus (or is he moving up?)

Lowest circle     Arthur Hills
of hell               Others?


Who else belongs where?  Other categories?  Who disagrees?



This is pretty damn close. I think you have Arthur Hills ranked a little too high though. ;D Do Coore and Crenshaw need to do some more courses before they hang it up as Sacred?
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2006, 09:36:58 AM »
Quote from: Anthony Butler on July 13, 2006, 09:11:31 AM
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2006, 11:19:26 PM
Anthony:

Actually, the working name for our next new course is "Wicked Pony".

I just build them, I don't name them!

What the .....? Since when did people start naming golf courses after strip clubs... ??? ??? ???

My first ever solo project in 1984 - rebuilding a defunct Dick Wilson course in Las Vegas named Winterwood - was re-named "Desert Rose" which was also the name of a local brothel.

One of my earliest discussions on this board about five years ago was whether or not gca's named the courses they designed, with the poster "aghast" that I didn't control everything.  My reply was that "the next course I name will be the first course I name."  

That said, I have been on a roll lately, with both the Quarry and the two Wilderness(es) being named after my suggestions.  The only problem is, those names don't translate well to shirt logos, with the text being about it, whereas I see some real possibilities with a "wicked pony" logo.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2006, 09:50:56 AM »
Courses that don't allow cameras.

Courses that enforce privacy laws regarding the dissemination of photos taken on private property.

Courses that have been ripped from "Courses by Country".
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2006, 10:03:46 AM »
i think a better topic regarding sacred cows would be:

who are the sacred cows of this site?

posters who are all knowing, and other people refrain from disagreeing with.
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2006, 10:05:09 AM »
Jeff,

Yet another name change at your course in Nashville:  Gaylord Springs Golf Links.

Mike
A Linkster
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2006, 10:10:05 AM »
Bogey,

Is that true, or are ya just funnin me?
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2006, 10:12:53 AM »


It's twu. It's twu.
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2006, 10:19:08 AM »
Well, I knew they were rebranding the hotels.  Here in Texas, they changed the original name of their facility across from Cowboys Golf Club from Opryland Texas to the Gaylord Texas.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2006, 10:25:11 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2006, 08:29:08 PM
...
Garland:  Is there really such a place as Jawbone Creek?

Yes there is. It is the course built on top of the course that I learned on. I have played it once. I was disappointed, because they took out my favorite hole, which was a 200+ yard par 3 with the green just beyond Jawbone Creek. I've fished many a ball out of Jawbone Creek.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne
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