[Matt_Ward]

One of the aspects that's centrally tied to any golf course experience is the term "fun factor" when playing. Too often this term is very loosely defined -- if at all. Sort of you know it when it happens.

For many people the grind of a golf course layout is not what brings them back for the next round.

I can thing of two metro NY-area courses that I live near that would fit the bill as being great and noteworthy but not being very high on the fun meter for a whole host of reasons. They are Winged Foot / West and Bethpage / Black. I personally enjoy them very much but I can understand that others see them as being too intense, too demanding and often times giving back little in terms of overall fun.

I wonder how people define the "fun factor" and if such a connection is merely tied to the results that people actually derive when playing said courses.

Clearly, one man's fun can be another man's grind / slog, you name it.

I can remember thet words from Cary L when he described his time at Lakota Canyon Ranch (New Castle, CO) and he used the word there. I've played Lakota a few times and no doubt there's plenty on the fun side when playing.

In sum -- is fun really tied to one's self interest or self gain when playing? Frankly, I can't think of too many high handicap types who would ascribe the word to their time at Winged Foot / West because the sheer intensity (not when prepared for Open conditions mind you) is just that demanding. However, if one were to take those same golfers and have them play at nearby Fenway they would likely see things a bit differently although many of the same design aspects are presented at the superb Tillinghast layout as well.

So, in sum, how much is the fun factor worth and can a layout truly be considered great if the fun factor is not spread across the board for various players?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think the fun factor has many elements including shot making options. I find Pacific Dunes to be a fun course for that reason. The green complex on 8 is an example. You have wonderful opportunities to feed the ball on the right side of the green. Barona has many of those same qualities as well. since I played Astoria last week one would be remiss not to mention just how fun that course is with the shots running down the dune lines and feeding the ball to the pins on the greens.

[TEPaul]

I'd say courses that many think have a hight degree of "fun factor" or have a lot of Fun Factor in their designs are those golf courses that both allow and often require all levels of golfers to use their imaginations to a larger extent than normally in the shots they chose and execute.

Coupling that with courses that do not overload golfers of any level with the applications of particularly Rules 26, 27 and 28 are probably high on Fun Factor in their designs.

One of the real truisms that adds to a fun factor on many courses that I've become absolutely convinced of now is particular applied maintenance practices, mostly firm and fast. That alone can add to the Fun Factor of many golf courses like you just can't believe.

One of the undeniable aspects of all of golf is how fascinating and how much fun the bounce and roll of the golf ball is when it really gets moving (app 40-50 yards and plus).

How we, in America, could've presided over the virtual lose of the bounce and roll of the golf ball without being more aware of the significance (in lose of fun) of the lose of that aspect of the game, is frankly just beyond my comprehension even if I certainly do know all the reasons why it happened in the latter half of the 20th century.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

Great topic! I assume you mean fun other than tallying up the course stats as to yards, par, and course rating?  Sorry, couldn't resist the shot!

I think most golfers have fun (in approximate order) playing a:

Historic course with tournament history

Naturally beautiful course

Museum piece that hasn't changed much
    (not as universal)

These three go a long way to determine the golf experience for most, and are a huge advantage.  The problem comes when designing a new course with no history obviously, and less than perfect scenery.  Then, you need beauty to the degree possilble and:
 
Course where they don't lose many golf balls

Well maintained course (can get points for fast and firm)

Course with a different look and strong theme - whether quarry, mountain, links, augusta landscaping, Texas Hill Country, etc. Anything but  Geneic Country Club (or muni) USA

Course with different type holes you haven't seen much
    (Your first Cape, Dell, Redan, whatever. For most golfers, this could also be playing your first course by a certain GCA, as above, one with a different style than your home course(s))

Course with different shots you don't hit much
    (not as universal, but a shot where you hit it here to get it there, i.e. use imagination like TePaul says Not everyone will be thrilled with playing out of a road hole bunker, or having a nice (but indifferent) chip roll of the back of the green)

Course with unexpected pleasant surprises, like kick in banks
    (Oh Hell, Oh Hell, Oh Hell, it's perfect!)

[Tony_Muldoon]

It's been said on here many times but I would agree that half par holes add to the fun factor.

However Par is very much in the mind of each player (if they accept that handicaps give you strokes to use where you want them) and trying to find a fun way to play the hole.  For a medium hitter like me any par 4 over 400yards can be treated as a par 4.5 and if it offers an option to play near the green and then chip on, a ball buster can becomes fun.

I.e it's fun to have more 3 shotters when I'm the one choosing how to play the hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

To answer your specific question, I do think you have to give up some types of challenges, or modify them for the public masses for a course to be fun. It would go back to the original Augusta theory of emphasizing rewarding good shots (and, see above, sometimes some not so good ones just for fun) rather than punishing bad ones.

For example, a Cape Hole works, but if there are challenge fairways, you simply open up the reward of carrying that fw to more golfers if you set the carry 240 from the back tees, rather than the 270 it would take to challenge the very best players.  If you need to, you can add side bunkers at 300 yards so they need to carry and be accurate, but let more players have the fun of trying it.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I always ask for the "just the facts" (e.g. slope, cr, distance, par, etc, etc) at the very beginning. It's the nature of how I approach understanding golf courses -- BUT -- after I get that info upfront I always like to delve into the other elements that are no easily quantifiable.

Fun is a very tough issue to define. Clearly, there needs to be various challenges in terms of different shot that compel you to return time after time. However, getting the fun factor alive and well for different handicap types can be quite vexing especially if the terrain is abrupt or there happens to be other natural obstacles (e.g. water, OB, etc, etc) that are part of that layout.

[BCrosby]

MacK argued that the highest and best reason for preferring strategic over penal designs was that strategic designs were more fun.

But I've never been clear about what, specifically, MacK meant by "fun".

As best I can figure I think he meant that a golfer will enjoy himself when hazards are optional. Even if he finds the hazards. Because it's his fault that he found the gunge, the player engages in that sweet and sour auto-criticism that keeps his interest in golf alive.  

Where hazards are mandatory (forced carries, tight roughs, cross bunkers and so forth) it's the course's fault. Players are more likely to feel like victims. For which most people have a limited tolerance.

Bob

P.S. I would also suggest that people have a limited tolerance for watching players on TV being victimized by a course. But maybe that's just me.

[George Pazin]

I'd say courses that many think have a hight degree of "fun factor" or have a lot of Fun Factor in their designs are those golf courses that both allow and often require all levels of golfers to use their imaginations to a larger extent than normally in the shots they chose and execute.

Coupling that with courses that do not overload golfers of any level with the applications of particularly Rules 26, 27 and 28 are probably high on Fun Factor in their designs.

One of the real truisms that adds to a fun factor on many courses that I've become absolutely convinced of now is particular applied maintenance practices, mostly firm and fast. That alone can add to the Fun Factor of many golf courses like you just can't believe.

One of the undeniable aspects of all of golf is how fascinating and how much fun the bounce and roll of the golf ball is when it really gets moving (app 40-50 yards and plus).

How we, in America, could've presided over the virtual lose of the bounce and roll of the golf ball without being more aware of the significance (in lose of fun) of the lose of that aspect of the game, is frankly just beyond my comprehension even if I certainly do know all the reasons why it happened in the latter half of the 20th century.

I couldn't agree much more!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Matt,

I think it is two separate areas of "fun" for me. The first is tee to green and the second is greens.

I disagree with you on Bethpage Black. It used to be more fun, but it is the setup not the redesign that has taken some of the fun out of BB. Back in the day, I had a couple of very fun days there on the white tees of 6600 yards or so tees. Tee to green, BB can be very fun.

Around the greens, Doak, C&C, Steel and Moran (there are others) build some interesting greens that will cause a threeputt or two. That is not fun to all, but seems to be to most here.

[Jason Topp]

A fun course:

1.  Gives hope - a player knows he can hit an acceptable shot on every hole.

2.  Provides interesting decisions - I particularly like wide dogleg fairways with a significant reward for a well placed shot.

3.  Allows a player to hit over something.  I think one of the reasons Royal Melbourne is so fun is the bunkers on the inside corners of the fairway that look intimidating, but are easily carried.  I think it is really fun to carry a corner over a tree, carry a slope or hit it over a barn if the hole allows for that option.

4.  Has few or no searches for golf balls.  Long rough, desert, trees with underbrush and lush rough on links courses all make for a less enjoyable day.  By contrast, bunkers, slopes and trees with no underbrush make the game more fun.  Water hazards are ok, but I prefer streams to lakes because of the possibility of recovery.

5.  Has some short par threes, even from the back tees.

6.  Has some birdie opportunities.

7.  Is in a beautiful setting.

8.  Allow the wayward golfer to get around the course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

A fun course:

.....Allows a player to hit over something.  I think one of the reasons Royal Melbourne is so fun is the bunkers on the inside corners of the fairway that look intimidating, but are easily carried.  I think it is really fun to carry a corner over a tree, carry a slope or hit it over a barn if the hole allows for that option.

....Has some short par threes, even from the back tees.

....Has some birdie opportunities.

Our lists agree, with the points above being very specific good additions.

I liked Melbourne for the same reason. We once designed a dogleg over a creek with trees on the corner and it was a hoot to try to drive that tree.  Are we the only ones who like that?  Bobby Weed did a coure east of MSP that has a barn carry, which was also a hoot. And, it let me prove that I COULD hit the broad side of a barn......

How about this for a "fun" description - The course design is such that it gives you a few 19th hole stories to tell......"

[George Pazin]

How about this for a "fun" description - The course design is such that it gives you a few 19th hole stories to tell......"

There are plenty of 19th hole stories that don't entail the word fun.

I like Jason's list a lot, there is really nothing I would change.

For me, the biggest determinant of fun is lack of penalty shots. I don't mind getting brutalized on the greens if I'm not constantly hitting provisionals, losing balls in the rough, figuring out where to drop on a water hazard, etc.

I shot 10 shots higher at Lehigh than I did at Inniscrone the previous day, but the round at Lehigh was more fun for me, at least golf wise. The golf foursome at Inniscrone and the fun things the rest of the day remain my best day in golf.

[rjsimper]

Though not a complete definition of "fun" by any means, I find that a golf course jumps several notches up the fun meter simply by including at least one sub-350 yard par 4 in the layout.

[Matt_Ward]

Many times for me the "fun factor" begins with the viewing of the site the course occupies. It is rare when the site is a plain jane and the golf is light years ahead of it.

It does happen but not that often.

When I see a site with my own two eyes and it conveys that kind of excitement it's very likely the fun factor will be in full bloom when playing.

[Doug Ralston]

Fun for the very short hitter?

Once again I state that Eagle Ridge at Yatesville Lake St Park, KY, is the most fun course I can imagine. But not everyone will find it so. What makes it fun for us?

1. Verticality; lots of downhill and uphill holes. #13 drops 240ft into a valley with a fairway running right to left to a green 325yds away but drivable by moderately long hitters. Nearly everyone who plays stops to hit several balls here, even if the 1st is a great shot. Takes forever to land. View is astounding, how could you resist.

2. Of course, the mountain scenery is nearly unsurpassable.

3. Every shot is a tough challenge you cannot wait to 'try'. You KNOW you won't succeed all the time, but the laughs are in the trying. The course slopes 144 but the front half slopes a hefty 153. You ARE gonna fail here sometimes, so bring some balls you won't miss much.....and TRY!

4 Those chasms are carryable with a good hit. If not, you can usually find your ball down there. Of course, it will be a tough climb down and up......so many leave their balls there. Therefor, those brave souls are often rewarded with 'resupply'.

5. This course is very well maintained. The State has decided [rightly] that course maintainence is more important than Clubhouses, and the Signature series has a lot of temp housing. No doubt about it, conditioning is a huge factor in enjoyment.

6. Great staff. Never found a course yet I wanted to return to a lot that had rude or unhelpful staff.

7. I cannot speak for 'shot values', not being savvy enough. But I DO know you are constantly searching for the best option for your own abilities as you ready a shot on ER.

8. Keep your ego in control. Pick the right tees and you will have a blast at ER. Worry about 'what the guys think', talking each other into too much expectations, and have a very long day. Fun is knowing it's possible, not hitting it long into the trees/chasms.

Golf is not just about numbers.

And I find plenty of courses that are not so vertical still fun....but not THIS much

Doug

[Adam_F_Collins]

This is a good topic and one which deserves more attention.

I think the best way to think of one's assessment of "fun" in terms of a golf course's overall design is to consider one course where you have played as a beginner and as a more accomplished player.

Thompson's Digby Pines is a good one for me. It was one of the first really good courses I played before I'd broken 100, and I still play it once or twice a year. Why is it fun?

• The holes vary significantly visually. This allowed me, even as a newbie to be stimulated by a new and distinctly different impression from one hole to the next. This still creates a building of excitement as you approach each tee. "Oh, I LOVE this next tee shot..." etc.

• The holes vary in terms of difficulty. There were some holes that were next to impossible for me as a beginner, but they were balanced by ones which were more within the realm of possibility. This translates to a variety of challenges for the more accomplished player as well.

• The holes vary in direction to the compass, providing added interest to the more accomplished player while going over the newbie's head (no pun intended). The same could be said about the variation of green size and severity of contours.

The course finishes with three very interesting holes. The short, downhill par 3 16th over water. Water scares the newbie, but the short length makes it entirely doable, while the reverse is true for the accomplished player, who barely notices the water, but can't quite figure what club to pic and how to hit the shot to deal with the short length.

The short par 4 17th, provides a semi-blind tee shot which is easy, but looks hard to the newbie, and is a very makable par. The hole also provides a nice birdie chance for the better player, if they place their approach correctly.

The medium length par 5 18th, has ferocious-looking bunkers everywhere, and heaving contours. Wide open and windy, it is an exciting finish for the newbie, as it looks harder than it is. To the better player, it is beautiful; a chance to go for one last birdie or an eagle with a pounded drive over the yawning bunkers.

When you finish, you KNOW you can play better next time, and you just want to head back to the first tee and start all over again.

The place also has a historic quality and old-school feel that is warm and relaxing - no sense of exclusivity or pretention.

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to a balance between variety, and a presentation of stimulating challenges. In order to be positively stimulating, many of these challenges must also be POSSIBLE to succeed at if undertaken. This includes not only the course, but the entire aura of the place. If the air of the place is too exclusive in the "looking down your nose" sense, it can serve to make a person feel unwelcome, or unworthy; like you fail to meet the standard of the people there.

Few enjoy failing all day.

[Doug Bolls]

I am a new poster here, so I'm just getting my big toe wet.  I have found "fun" in golf courses directly related to visual interest and variety from hole-to-hole.  Holes that have the "oh my!" factor are almost always fun, providing one is playing the right tees.  For example, the 15th at Mauna Lani South on the Big Island is just stunning - the water and lava get your heart going a little - and the bunkering draws your eye to the generous green.  If I remember the yardages correctly, it's 180 or so over the water, but the green is receptive to my 7 wood - and that's a club I can hit with some confidence of the ball goig where I want it to go.

However, for pure "fun", it is heard to beat the composite courses - like Tour 18 in Humble, TX - absolutely no architectural continunity - but just one interesting hole after another.  Same thing for Bear's Best in Vegas.

[Joe Hancock]

Doug Bolls,

Nice big toe job!

I haven't played any of those courses, but even if I had I can't argue with your views or opinions. That's the cool thing about all this stuff....it means different things to different folks.

Welcome aboard!

Joe

[Brian Joines]

A fun course:

1.  Gives hope - a player knows he can hit an acceptable shot on every hole.

2.  Provides interesting decisions - I particularly like wide dogleg fairways with a significant reward for a well placed shot.

3.  Allows a player to hit over something.  I think one of the reasons Royal Melbourne is so fun is the bunkers on the inside corners of the fairway that look intimidating, but are easily carried.  I think it is really fun to carry a corner over a tree, carry a slope or hit it over a barn if the hole allows for that option.

4.  Has few or no searches for golf balls.  Long rough, desert, trees with underbrush and lush rough on links courses all make for a less enjoyable day.  By contrast, bunkers, slopes and trees with no underbrush make the game more fun.  Water hazards are ok, but I prefer streams to lakes because of the possibility of recovery.

5.  Has some short par threes, even from the back tees.

6.  Has some birdie opportunities.

7.  Is in a beautiful setting.

8.  Allow the wayward golfer to get around the course.

Jason,

I think this list is a great way to describe the "fun factor."

I will evaluate a course that I found to be very high on the "fun factor" using this list.

Lost Dunes

1. I think that the wide fairways and large greens make the average player believe their shots are better than they really are. Hitting a fairway is a good feeling for someone who is inconsistent with the driver and they are not too difficult to hit at Lost Dunes. The large (and somewhat soft) greens are rather inviting for approach shots and will certainly yield some GIR. Gettting from tee to green is really only half the battle asthe wild greens don't offer many easy putts. While the inevitable 3 putts get discouraging, it makes the tough 2 putts even more rewarding.

2. Lost Dunes is full of interesting decisions and strategic shots. The best line for a tee shot/layup almost always depends on the day's pin placement. Several holes offer better lines of approach for those who opt to take the more demanding tee shot. A good example is the par 4 2nd. A tee shot over the right bunkers will give the golfer a much easier approach to a green partially hidden by a mound in front of the left portion of the green. So when the pin is tucked back left, it really pays to get that drive to the right side of the fairway. However, if the pin is on the open right front of the green, that line isn't worth the risk off the tee.

3. There are several forced carries at Lost Dunes, none of which are too intimidating (besides maybe #15 if you're not that long off the tee). Another addition to this point on your list could be elevated tee shots. The tee shot on #12 is from way, way up above the fairway. This kind of shot can be exciting for alot of players and the views are quite nice.

4. Ok, maybe Lost Dunes doesn't fit this description very well, but the forecaddies do help a lot. Our forecaddie was able to find most of our wayward shots in the native grass. The native grass is pretty thin for the most part and not too difficult to play out of (which is another important fun factor).

5. The shortest par 3 from the back tees here is 170 which is still pretty long. I played the member's tees here and found the par 3'a too be very manageable, yet still challenging. The variety was also very nice. i think the front nine had two par 3's under 155 and one at about 220.

6. Several holes here will yield some good birdie opportunities. Holes 13-15 provide a nice easy stretch where birdies can be made. #2 and #4 can be good birdie chances if the pins are in the front portion of the greens. If they're in the back left portions of the green, par can become a very good score

7. Despite the course being split up by I-94, I found it to be a beautiful setting. It's surrounded by huge sand dunes on most of the perimiter. The nice bunkering, wild greens and great views from the elevated tee boxes make it visually pleasing (to my eye atleast)

8. This is where the wide fairways, large greens and ample bailout areas really help. These features help keep the ball in play for the wayward golfer, yet don't yield them low scores. This course is all about the ground game and that gives the lesser golfer a chance to get in the fairway, up to the green and try and make some putts.


Can't wait to get back and play there!

[Jason Topp]

Brian - Thanks for the description.  Where is Lost Dunes?

[Larry_Keltto]

Fun shots for me are those that take a long time to come to rest -- John Kirk's Theory of Time.

So, courses with a lot of those shots are courses that I enjoy.

[George Pazin]

Brian - Thanks for the description.  Where is Lost Dunes?

In Michigan, though I don't know where, exactly.

Ran's profile of Lost Dunes

[Joe Hancock]

Brian - Thanks for the description.  Where is Lost Dunes?

Extreme SW corner of Michigan.

Joe

[Brian Joines]

Brian - Thanks for the description.  Where is Lost Dunes?

Yea, very SW corner of Michigan in the city of Bridgman. It's about 35 Minutes from South Bend, IN and an hour and a half or so from Chicago

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