[Tony_Chapman]

My brother and I had the opportunity to volunteer at the Senior Open on Monday. We have both played Prairie Dunes and the course looks magnificent.

While at the Merchandise Pavillion, I had the opportunity to purchase Perry Maxwell's Prairie Dunes written by Mal Elliott. I'm am now thoroughly engrossed in the original Prairie Dunes and how the final nine came to be.

For those who have played Prairie Dunes, I might ask this: For 20 years, the course was hailed as the greatest 9-hole course in the country. But, was Maxwell's original nine there, the greatest ever built in the US?

I think the argument can be made, but I want to wait for other opinions first. In my mind, I can't quite put anything near Maxwell's collection at PD. Those holes are truly something else.

Here are a few pictures. Enjoy the Senior Open!


The seventh green, with the practice green and clubhouse in the background.


The first green, with the third fairway in the background.


The rough at the 5th. Fairways are 1/2 inch, 1st cut is 1 1/2 inches and the second cut is 4 inches and THICK.


The golfer's view of the 8th green from the left side of the fairway at 180 yards away.


The 10th green with the clubhouse in the background.

[Marc Haring]

I was fortunate enough to have dinner with Stan George the Super there back in February at Atlanta. I think Stan looks in to this site occasionally, so if you're watching Stan, congratulations, looks like one hell of a job.

[Chris_Clouser]

Mark,

When the course was only nine hole the current 17th was considered the 8th hole.  The original tee for this hole is the one that was located near what is now the 11th tee.  If the tee was restored it would play as a dogleg right with tee shot having to clear a vast area of rough before getting to the fairway.  

Hope that clears that up.  

[Lou_Duran]

I've played Prairie Dunes a few times and have considerable respect and affection for the course.  The 8-9-10 stretch is my personal favorite.

There are two factors which lead to my opinion that it is not in the top 10-20 courses in the US- the Press holes and its overgrown, penal nature.  The son's holes are still very good for the most part and do not detract from the challenge of the course.  However, they lack the detail and sophistication of the father's work from tee to green.  I can't think of a single Press hole that I prefer to a Perry hole.

But the thing that has prevented me from turning in an application for membership is the penal nature of the course due to the proximity of thick native vegetation to playing areas.  It is not the whispy kind of natives found at Bethpage and Shinny where you can generally find your ball and hit it back in play.  Hit it in the gunch and even some greenside bunkers and it is generally a lost ball or unplayable.

#10, a world-class par 3 by the clubhouse, for all the vegetation around it, one can barely see the green.  And this was not long after an accidental fire thinned out some of the thickets.

Question:

Was PD like this from its inception?  Was the penal nature due to the surroundings part of Maxwell's design intent?  Or is it something that has evolved and became ratified through the passage of time?

Having played a few other Maxwell courses, none relied on vegetation to protect the course.  PD doesn't have great length, but with the wind and the wonderful greens, it still has plenty of bite to challenge nearly all who will play it.

It will be interesting to see how the old guys handle it.  They will have one advantage the rest of us don't, plenty of people to help them spot their foul balls and trampled down rough in spots.  With all the native areas, I wonder how they will rope off the course for the crowds.    

[Tony_Chapman]

I sure hope Chris chimes in when he wants to here. The USGA brass gave him a little area in the program that shows his book cover and in he also list all of the "known" Maxwell courses at this time.

Lou - Here is what they have done to most of the native areas. This is left of the third.



I can understand where you come from on the nature of the "native" areas, but I would say that there is at the very least 50 yards of "playable" area on every hole save the par-3s.

Mark - I was flabbergasted to read that as well. So, I intentionally took this picture on the 10th grandstand of 17.



My rationale behind Maxwell's nine being the best nine in America is as follows. You can say, I think without much hesitation, that seven on the nine holes are world class. The first, second, fourth (current #7, which Maxwell designed as a 440 yard par-4), fifth (current #8), sixth (current #9), seventh (current #10) and eighth (current 17, but from 11 tee).

The third (current #6) and the closer both have great merit as well.

[Tim Pitner]

The course looks quite narrow with very penal rough.  From the photos, it looks like a bear for all but the lowest handicap players.  Does the course normally play this way?  Is it just the setup for the Senior Open or are the playing corridors (fairways and light rough) pretty tight generally?

[Tony_Chapman]

Tim - The fairways are averaging 28 yards wide for the Senior Open. The second cut of rough is 4 inches right now.

My brother (scratch) was fortunate enough to play there in mid-May. He said the fairways were probably about five yards wider when he played (estimating an average of 33 yards wide). The rough is normally kept to a height of 2.5 inches compared to the current setup at 4.5 inches. As I said earlier, there is about 50 yards of playable area on most holes.

So it is playing considerably more difficult that it would for member play. However, I think that you will see that it will hold it's own at only 6,600 yards for this event.

[Chris_Clouser]

Tony,

It's good to know that they put that in there.  I helped out the publisher with some items late in the process.  There is also a piece about the book in this month's South Central Golf, so some good press these couple of weeks.

Of your characterization of the course, the only thing I find fault with is the categorization of the 4th (current 7th) as a world-class hole.  I don't know that I've ever heard anyone say that about it before.  I think it is a much better hole as originally laid out, but still that is a stretch in my mind.  But I think you are right on the others.  The only other nine I have played that competes is the opening nine at Crystal Downs.  Of Maxwell courses, the back nine at Southern Hills is also pretty stout.  

I have seen pictures from the original construction that indicate the foliage was similar to current day.  Also there are several photos in Mal Elliott's book that indicate that it has been of a similar nature since the conception of the course.  But it could have grown in thicker since then and allowed to close in on the course.  In talking with Maxwell's daughter about Prairie Dunes she actually told me some stories of playing the course and said that it the only course that she didn't like to play because of the think brush around the course, but loved to walk it because it was such a gorgeous site.  So I'm thinking it was always there.  

It's funny that the topic of the original tee to the 17th hole comes up because she actually told me about that tee and how difficult that tee shot was and how she would have to play way to the left to get in the beginning of the fairway.

I also remember talking with Stan George before the Women's Open there that they were going to cut back the brush in certain areas of the course to allow for fan movement and observation.  

[Tony_Chapman]

Chris - It's a very nice little piece in the program. They have a picture of your book with info on how to purchase, etc. And, then they have your compiled list of courses. This is all in conjuction with Elliot's chapter on Maxwell directly from the PD book.

I guess just look at the current seventh (and seeing it as a 440 yard par-4 from 1940), I thought that making it a par-5 weakened that hole.

It's just a wonderful stretch of holes that were routed there.

[Lou_Duran]

Tony,

That's a devilish green for a par 4 (current #7).  Neither of the par 5s are among my favorites, though I respect both's greeen complexes, and #17 rose in my evaluation during my last visit this spring (prior criticism was on the lay-up shot).  I don't recall looking at the hole from #11 tee, though I can imagine that it would make the angle to the fairway much more challenging.

[Tony_Chapman]

I don't know how normal this is, but currently 17 of the 18 holes at PD have an over par average. Only the seventh is under par. The scoring average so far is just shy of 75.

The USGA has some great stats. The rough is costing .636 shots right now.

[Lou_Duran]

For the most part, the greens appear to be on the slow side.  Are they putting under 10'?

I am going to try the Doyle swing.  The commentators are right, the course is ideal for him.  

[Travis Ripley]

Lou_D

according to Ben Crenshaw, the greens rolling slower on the stimp allows the setup to utilize some of the pin placements that highlight the Maxwell greens.  

i beleive i read that here at GCA in one of the other threads that has a link.  

[Jason Blasberg]

#10, a world-class par 3 by the clubhouse, for all the vegetation around it, one can barely see the green.  And this was not long after an accidental fire thinned out some of the thickets.
   

Lou I believe you're referring to Stan George's controlled burning program .. . unless some got away I'm pretty sure what you saw burnt out around the 10th was by plan.

[Tony_Chapman]

Jason - Lou is correct, I did read a story in the Wichita Eagle that had Stan saying they had a fire break loose over by the tennis courts and did lose some vegetation on the tenth. It, apparently, was nothing major.

Lou is right on, though, on the vegetation piece of things. It's nasty stuff. It's not even close to what one would see at Wildhorse or Sand Hills to compare the Nebraska courses I know. Half of the stuff in there is like a tree -- branches and all. You can't get it out of there. I've never seen gorse, but I would assume it's more to that than the wispy native grasses we have in Nebraska.

[Jason Blasberg]

I've played Prairie Dunes a few times and have considerable respect and affection for the course.  The 8-9-10 stretch is my personal favorite.

There are two factors which lead to my opinion that it is not in the top 10-20 courses in the US- the Press holes and its overgrown, penal nature.  The son's holes are still very good for the most part and do not detract from the challenge of the course.  However, they lack the detail and sophistication of the father's work from tee to green.  I can't think of a single Press hole that I prefer to a Perry hole.
   

Lou:

I know we've discussed this at length and I know you know my love for the course and that I think it's easily a top 20 US course and most likely a top 10 as I can't imagine there being 9 BETTER golf courses.  There could certainly be 9 or more considered as good and thus taste really forms one's top 10/20 lists.

I would say that 11, 13 and 16 are every bit as good as number 1.  I also think 11 and 13 are as good as 18.  

I find number 4 to be close to as good as 2, although it plays far differently and plays much harder.

Other than the stretch of 8-10, which no architect including Perry could top or equal on that property, I find that Press' work holds up well.  I would say that the routing flows as well but the greens perhaps lack a little kick, except for 12 and 14 which are every bit as good as Perry's (except numbers 6 and 8 which I think are the two best greens on the course).  

While Press' greens likely have fewer 4 putts in them I find they have as much if not more variety than Perry's.  For instance, 12 and 15 slope away from the player while I can't recall any of Perry's greens doing that.  The knob in front of 11 green is totally unique.  Number 16 gets very narrow in the back especially for the length of the hole.

One reason that I consider PD such a fine course is that I very much like the Press holes.  In fact, the first time I played it I did not really pay attention to what were Perry and what were Press holes.  

Afterward I analyzed it but my first impression was that the course had a seemless flow.  

Lou, did you first play Prairie Dunes consciously noting which were Perry holes and which were Press holes?  If you did I wonder if that formed your impressions.  

Also, I think it's pretty clear that Press had less dramatic land to work with.  

I think the one thing that stands out in the Press holes is the relative lack of fairway contouring, which, by all accounts, Perry constructed.  

Thus, could it be that Press was more of a Minimalist that his Dad, and could this greater respect for what nature have him led to his holes being a little more understated?  

[Jason Blasberg]

The course looks quite narrow with very penal rough.  From the photos, it looks like a bear for all but the lowest handicap players.  Does the course normally play this way?  Is it just the setup for the Senior Open or are the playing corridors (fairways and light rough) pretty tight generally?

Tim, we played it in May and the rough was not nearly as thick but the fairways were just about 30-35 yards.  The gunch is virtually a lost ball, but if you include the rough which is usually very playable, the effective playing corridors are at least 50 yards wide.

Visually, it's very intimidating off the tee but if you get in a grove and are confident it's demanding off the tee but certainly fair and fun.

While I've still not broken 80 from the tips, I did have a 37 on the front last trip and I hit 8 of 9 greens.  Driver is only necessary on a couple of holes on each side unless there are strong winds so even from the back tees you can hit a lot of 3 woods.

I would say there are a few holes were the gunch should be cut back or thinned out a bit, for instance:

the inside of 3 to encourage more players to try and drive the green; the inside of 6 to tempt more players to challenge the bunkers down the left side which is actually the more worse angle to approach the green so it would lure more balls to the wrong side of the hole as opposed to scaring balls away to the correct side of the hole; both sides of number 7 so that more drivers are encouraged off the tee; the inside of 11 so more people try and challenge the dog leg and the inside of 13 for the same reason; and left of 17 green so more players would go for the green in two.

Understand I think these areas should have penal fescue rough but I don't think it should be an automatic lost ball as it is in most instances now.

[Anthony Butler]

It looks great on TV and even better in these photos... It seems like quite a compact course and quite low profile i.e. Very few tall trees and the green complexes look like they were built using only the natural undulations of the land... After looking at some pictures posted on another site a couple of weeks ago + the general weather conditions, the first name that came to mind was Tom Watson. Add his great short game, the reduced pace of the greens and the fact that about 80% of the crowd will be routing for him. It's going to be some kind of Sunday if the two old masters, Zidane and Watson can get it done one last time.

[TEPaul]

I have always felt that Perry Maxwell may've been the best green designer and builder golf course architecture has ever seen in the extent and consistently great and varied greens he did thoughout his career.

This is not to say there were not a number of other really outstanding green designers and builders over golf architecture's 150 years of existence but I can't see that a single one of them topped Maxwell in the quality, the excellence and variety of what he did with greens thoughout his career.

I think I have only heard of a single green he ever did that did not work very well and didn't stand the test of time.

Maxwell greens are just amazing----they became ultra famous right out of the box ( the "Maxwell Rolls" which is a play on words and double entendre with two luxury automobiles of his time) and nothing over the years seems to have diminished that opinion.

[T_MacWood]

Everyone always talks about the greens when talking about PD (and Maxwell generally) and no doubt they are brilliant, but what struck me when playing the golf course were the tees, some of the most interesting sites for tees of any course I know.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:  I've been to Prairie Dunes a number of times, and yet the tees have never really stood out as unusual to me.  Can you elaborate?

[Josh Smith]

Thank you for the photos, I especially like the first one.  

     Some of the bunkers have the same look as a few at Crystal Downs, awesome looking and very natural.   Maybe this is a discussion for another subject, but does anyone know if Perry Maxwell built these natural blowout style bunkers at other sites as well.
 
     From my limited knowledge, Maxwell always receives kudos for his greens especially, but his bunkering is top notch.

     Also, does anyone know what kind of work Coore and Crenshaw have done there.  i am guessing adding tees, expanding some greens and adjusting bunkers out from aerials?  It looks great.  

[Lou_Duran]

Jason B.,

As you know, I try to prepare myself prior to visiting a course I haven't seen.   For Prairie Dunes I reviewed the wonderful pictorial ('Maxwell's PD') and talked to a couple of friends who were acquainted with the course.  I don't think I went into my first rounds predisposed in favor of Perry over Press, nor with the detailed knowledge of their respective holes memorized.

My favorite holes at PD, 2, 8, 9, 10, and 18, are all Perry holes.  Of the Press holes, I like 5, 13, 14, and 16 the best.  I think that 3 is a bit awkward (with the ball working away from the slope and slight turn in the fairway), 4 feels forced into the hillside (a lefty might see it differently) and a bit too similar to 2, and 12 just doesn't seem to fit the rest of the course (thank God they got rid of the mounding down the right side between my two visits).

I don't know that Press had less desirable land to build on.  I think that we saw some missed opportunities for 11, a hole you like a lot more than I do, for a strong par 5 that the course sorely needs.

You might be right about Press being the more minimalist of the two.  Personally, I think that minimalism is vastly overrated.  As we discussed re: Seawane, a great opportunity MAY have been missed when the renovation did not include creating some roll to the fairways and perhaps working a bit more with the topography (watertable issues?).  As long as the earth work can be accomplished in a way that looks natural and adds interest, I am all for it.

Being that I am a big fan of the strategic school with its emphasis on options and variety, PD has everything going for it but for its penal side.  Just clearing back the gunch 10 yards on each side of the landing areas (including green complexes) and removing the yuccas from the bunkers would go a long ways.  With firm greens, slopes, and closely mown areas, par would be more than protected and the noxious hunt for lost balls would be minimized.  As we saw from our numerous excursion into the gunch, lost balls are the rule, not the exception.  In fact, when you ask someone about PD, the first response you are likely to get is how tight and unforgiving it is.  A course with 50 yard-wide hole corridors and wonderful greens (including Press') should be described quite differently.

Lastly, I don't understand what the USGA is trying to do.  Is it afraid to expose the Seniors?  The course setup appears very soft and the greens don't seem to have the speed I experienced during my two visits.    

Having said all this, I am still considering joining (if they'll have me).   It is probably the most comfortable club I've played as a guest, and the way they treated you and your two friends was uncommonly impressive.  Unfortunately, things are a bit unsettled for me presently, and will remain so for the rest of the year.  
   

[Jason Blasberg]

what struck me when playing the golf course were the tees, some of the most interesting sites for tees of any course I know.

Any many of them were added by C&C!  

[Jason Blasberg]

Lou:

I know you love that hillside back and left of 11 green but what happens to 12?  Does it become a par three, a button hook dog leg, or do you walk all the way back?  

You know what they say about hindsight . . .

Personally, I'd like 12 a lot more if the forward tee was used and it was drivable . . . say about 310-325 or so with firm fairways would be perfect.  

J. Miller got it dead on about PD, it makes you want to gag on every shot b/c it's sooooo visually intimidating.  

It's much more fair if you hit quality shots and I don't recall ever hitting a good shot that ended up in the junk . . .I've hit tons that roll off greens all over the place.

I would like to see the stuff thinned out so balls 10-15 feet into the gunch could be found and hacked out with a wedge.  

At one point yesterday Miller also said the greens were running slower than they do for the membership.  That's too bad because it would have really been a stern test and there's no way 62 is shot.  I'm still marveling at what Roberts did yesterday.

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