News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tommy_Naccarato

Something Else To Read
« on: October 20, 2002, 03:02:15 PM »
After reading Geoff's latest contribution, I thought it might be time to further add the following preface from a certain masterpiece that I find to be very valuable.

In an effort to create some constructive spirit to these discussions, please read the following and add some commentary. Please no attacks neccessary. If you feel the need, start your own thread and do it.

After reading it:

-Do you agree or disagree with it?
-Does it change your perception of golf architecture in general?
-Is this writing living proof of a certain anonmousity between natual and un-natural features and the parties that represented them, and that the climate of the closing of Golf's Golden Age--at the outset of the Great Depression may have been very similar to what we are experiencing today?

Any questions or opinions (civil) are welcomed.

The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definite of convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo.

This serves at least to prove that the subject is one of perennial and surprising interest; and we have tried to look at this architectural side of golf from several different standpoints. There is, for example, the traditional--what might be termed the classical view: and being ourselves catholic in feeling on the matter, we notice with regret the extent to which modern design tends to depart from the original Scottish models--a practice that may have injurious results on the intention and spirit of the game.

Then, again, a golf course is a field of maneuver and action, employing, as it were, the military and engineering side of the game. It opens up a series of tactical and strategical opportunities, the implications of which it would be well for every golfer to grasp, whether he happens to approve or disapprove of the conclusions we have ventured to put forward. It is important to emphasize the necessity for the golfer to use his head as much as his hands; or, in other words, to make his mental agility match his physical ability.

Thirdly, there is the artistic side. No reason exists why a golf course should not decorate a landscape rather then disfigure it. As in any other work of art, the strictest economy of means should be properly used; over-elaboration is destructive of unity.

Vitality is another quality that is essential. Instinctively we feel that one course is alive, another dead and insipid, lacking energy of expression. We look for the unexpected note and a pleasantness of line. Every curve should have a spring in it and no straight line should ever be quite straight. Generally the detection of these slight differences is purely of matter of feeling which once experienced is not likely to be forgotten.

We have also dealt with the technique of design and construction. In that direction our labours have already met with some gratifying encouragement. A lady to whom the proofs were shown proceeded on the strength of the informative they conveyed (of which she evidently fully approved) to remodel a private course of no very conspicuous merit by introducing some admirable dog-legged holes and a few other novelties that added considerably to the interest of the greens. No doubt her plans would have gone further still had they not involved the felling of valuable timber--a suggestion as to which was not welcomed with the some alacrity as the other improvements. But in spite of that serious difficulty the results were regarded favourably enough to justify the principles laid down in the practical chapters of the book and to relieve even a private course from its monotony. We are hopeful that the improvements may be found possible on courses of even larger scale.

To the more serious essays a few of a more frivolous nature have been added, the majority of which fit reasonably into the architectural scheme without digressing too far into the other realms of golf. And if in these we have been compelled to use the inevitable "we" then it would otherwise have occurred, it must be attributed to the necessities of a deal authorship, the difficulty being that if anything singular has to be said, it must unfortunately be said in plural.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2002, 04:36:31 PM »
Tommy,
It doesn't alter my perception of architecture, based on my interpretation of what I have read.
I think it mainly says that no matter what type of course one builds, be it highly manufactured or not, one should not forget to freely adapt what works, the time tested strategies. I agree with that.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeremy_Glenn.

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2002, 06:18:18 PM »
Tommy,

It is extremely well written.

Who is the author? And what occasion was it written for?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2002, 06:27:56 PM »
Jermey,
Before I divulge, I would really enjoy your thoughts on this.

Jim, I'll get back to you in a few as I'm watching both the series; talking on the phone; and typing this at the same time. Only I could do three things at once and not be very good at it!:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2002, 07:26:38 PM »
Tommy
I'm in agreement with the author. I particularly like what he or she wrote about vitality.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2002, 07:34:13 PM »
:)

QUOTE:  The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer…

My comments are:
1. More than slight differences, but asking about range of uncertainty between them and freedom to amplify any.
 
2. That there is overlapping uncertainty in criticism is not proof that architectural styles are really similar and we make much to do about nothing really different.

3. Conscire, the origins of consciousness related to guilt…  not uniquely catholic, but why in year 18xx or 19xx or 20xx should anyone feel difference from historical is something to be guilty about?  If golf was invented today it would express our current capabilities.
 
4. Well said, on maneuver and action, but it’s a two way street to also need to learn the shots that mentally you recognize are required to play, be they the bump and run, the lob, or curving the ball flight to a target.
 
5. Art has its place, but "in your face" is out of place in our conceptual idealism.

6. Like the interplay of melody and rhythm and the resolution of tension abounds in golf course eb and flow.

7. Do I detect some ancient situation here where a course's open field routing was proposed to encroached upon the valued forest and wooded lands!  I sense a certain alacrity or celebrity towards this wording as being too seductive to the modern soul, what did he just say?

8. Balance is good, WE take ourselves too seriously, there is certainly a large congregation of souls involved in golf discussion, they make the world go round.

I have no idea who wrote the tome, in golf alas he's found a home.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Joe Andriole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2002, 08:15:51 PM »
This sounds like Simpson though it's been many years since I read the "Architectural Side of Golf"  The prose is wonderful and the conflict almost personal.  this i a great addition to our discussions and interplay and details a perspective of golf unknown to the casual player.  He is moe concerned with solid contact.  For the moe astute, more talented, or more artful among us golf is on another eschelon and the architecture becomes an art form, or a battlefield or even an intellectual challenge.  The seriosness to which each of us pursues golf varies.  On the highest level we pursue Simpson's(?) ideal; on another we swat a small ball into a slightly larger hole.   Thank you for sharing this, Tommy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2002, 08:36:44 PM »
Tommy,

I know I have read that, but can't place it.  One thing I like about old writings is their elegance.  In today's USA Today, factoid world, it would be shortened to:

"Every golfer views courses differently, according to his game.  He is going to critique it based on his game, and we can't stop it, so we don't try!

Architecture interests golfers from many aspects - how does it compare to what went before, and does it provide strategy and beauty we seek?  Lastly, the average golfer doesn't know much about good architecture, but he knows it when he sees it!  We know we are building an artificial landscape, but by avoiding straight lines and providing a few pleasant surprises, we can "pull the wool" over their eyes that it is in fact, wholly natural.

These articles also deal with construction.  We showed these to a lady, who endorsed them, but couldn't get the greens committee to remove sufficient trees.  We have not (nor should we) neglected the humorous experience often found in golf, but we tried to relate them to architecture in some way.

I think I said the same thing, in about one third the words.....and probably still too long for a Golf Digest "Toilet Read."  The style analysis and comparison serves to illustrate my thought that golfers of any age aren't all that much different, nor are the thoughts expressed in this forward much different than we might get today.

As to content, I think the Golden Agers were comparing how far "Modern" architecture got away from the style of the original Scottish links to adapt to a variety of landscapes, much as we are discussing how our modern architecture gets away from Golden Age principles, and whether technology should lead us to more articficial design to suit our current purposes.

But, it is still essentially the same debate!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2002, 09:24:00 PM »
Joe, Jim, Jeff and All,

Many of you have really hit it here, and it has been from READING this and other great works; talking to a lot of well-researched people and more and more READING that it is becoming more evident to me that the End of the Golden Age was result of--
A golf ball out of control and a governing body not having the funds, power nor the knowledge to prevent it from happening. It was all affecting the ARCHITECTURE, which at the time wasn't really important because people were trying to figure out how to put bread on the table; couldn't afford it; or simply those who selfishly wanted courses designed that would benefit their own game. (in other words in its time--Modern Golf) Because lets face it, this age what we deem Classical was actually modern and they were relying on the guys who know what Golf actually was, many of whom either were from there or had studied there, to build and design their courses. Its all exonerably linked to the GREAT LINKS!

You see, "History" is repeating itself. (IMHO)

It is here in The Architectural Side of Golf that we can find exactly the perfection that so many of us seek in golf courses--Tom Simpson, Harry Newton Wethred (and Paul Turner:)) are magnificent in there quests for the ultimate vision of what made/makes all of "them" tick.

For the most part, I interpret this in my own way, a sort of separation of humanism and naturalism, and the ones that can see it are the ones that built the very courses we respect so highly today. It also says to me that we need to really not recognize that we cannot be SELFISH in this regard--meaning the PERSONAL PREFERANCES which harm the game so much as we know it today. (Look how so many equate GREAT golf courses with how they play them as well as how green and perfectly manicured they must be to be good. They fail to see how an architect has gone out of his way to refine something nature has given him and make it playable. This could mean a lot of earth movement and it could mean a minimum of earth movement. It means do whatever is neccessary to hi-light the exisiting environment using the tools of challenge and enjoyment for all of the schools mentioned--Traditional, Strategical, and Artistic.  

I also feel that the Vitality that is mentioned is what happens when these schools are practiced to their perfection.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2002, 07:29:39 AM »
Tommy- I'd like to know how you make the leap to the "Ball" arguement?

Understanding full well that you are entitled to make that leap and this is not a quibble, I just want to know why you think these fundementals are being challenged by an improvement in every aspect of the game, from knowledge to physicality to technology?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2002, 07:43:52 AM »
As for my opine, I believe this quote is where the modernist went astray. And that is the reason for the house sided overwatered garbage that litters the landscape.

Quote
It is important to emphasize the necessity for the golfer to use his head as much as his hands; or, in other words, to make his mental agility match his physical ability.

[/i]


Especially at Augusta their "accuracy off the tee" approach is fundementally flawed.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2002, 11:02:22 AM »
Is Tommy saying that modern architects are selfish and greedy and that anyone who enjoys modern architecture doesn't read.   I know Tommy would not intentionally insult the chosen few modern dudes that get it...but is it just me or does the constant use of capitalized buzz words create a tone that is insulting and seems to prove that bias does exist against living architects that have not created specific west coast designs that fit what Tommy has chosen to embrace.   I don't think people who only tour courses found in the affluent/effluent east and west coasts understand the degree of poor work that was done in the less golden parts of the country during every year golf architecture has been practiced classic or modern era.   All the good men are not dead or personal friends of Tommy...and not everyone needs to read to find the fun in an enjoyable game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2002, 07:50:42 PM »
John,
What I'm saying that anyone, whomever given the opportunity to design a golf course in this modern day, that doesn't understand the above words mentioned, is bound for harsh criticism--at least from the Traditionalist's, the Strategist's and the Artists.

That is just my take.

Now what do you read from all of this? (The Wethered & Simpson piece)(Also, have you had the opportunity to read the whole book from cover to back?)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2002, 08:21:28 PM »

Some of the other things that struck me in the Architectual Side of Golf, other than the aforementioned stuff about golf balls, was the mention of framing of greens and the use of Tiger Tee's. Excellent book indeed.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2002, 05:19:14 AM »
Tommy,

Thanks for the piece.  In general I like the comments, but it must be commented upon paragraph by paragraph.  Starting with the third paragraph the emphasis is on strategy which is paramount.  This is a major statement, mental agility.

The next paragraph again is major, the economy of means...over elaboration is destructive.  you know when the sun rises it does so quietly, there are no loud sound effects, no high fives, no fireworks.  Very simple, but one of the great pleasures of living.

Put these two thoughts together with Behr's about the line of charm and you may have a major portion of the Holy Grail in your possession.  

I totally disagree with the next paragraph regarding lines.  Beauty is in the composition, the shading, and refering to above as much as what is not done as what is done, not the lines.  I have heard this over and over, curving lines, and there is absolutely no substance to it.  I can make a rectangular green, which gives the maximum periphery pin placements, and put you at ground level, and if the compostion is good you will not be disappointed with the geometric shape of the green.  His statement is hollow.  Every curve should have a spring.  This means nothing.  I like the concept of vitality.  What is it?  What makes it?  Vitality is a great word.

Thanks again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2002, 05:33:41 AM »
Good Morning Tommy...

Of course I have not read that book...but I have read the excerpt in your post and find it somewhat disturbing....notably the statement that departure of design from the Scottish model may have injurious results on the intention and spirit of the game.  I think it to be dangerous for architecture to attempt to mold the culture of a society rather than fit the society in which it is created.  The modern golfer both expert and average living in the midwest demands a modern interpretation much different than the classic Scott playing on a classic piece of links land.   An argument may now be made that the invention of the elevator and steel structure created city scapes that are both ugly and dangerous to occupy..much like the same agruments made about the effects of the modern long ball.   The facts of reality are that the invention of the elevator was inevitable given the scarcity of land and mans desire to reach higher and further...much like the advances in golf equiptment were inevitable to progress the game.   It is the architects duty in a capitalist society to meet these needs as they arise...not starve in some forgotten protest against progress.   I hate faux links as much as I have a modern Victorian davenport...I love the challenge presented by the modern architect every bit as much as I would love to play a Scottish links...we have not been injured in these modern times...we have been enlightened to the greatness of mans ability to challenge the men of their own times.

btw...I was watching Jimmy Neutron with my son the other day and Thomas Edison was a charater in the show...he said "Why...knock 100 points of my IQ and call me Telsa."  Who says Saturday morning can't be educational...Your Telsa post a couple of years ago was priceless....Enjoy you coffee and close that towel..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2002, 05:52:41 AM »
The thought that comes to my mind is: In the film "Amadeus" when Salieri is being wheeled down the hallway and is proclaiming his understanding of how he is the champion of mediocrity.

In context, the dumbing down of GCA made commonplace by our ravinous greed has produced a mediocre standard. To me and I believe the writer, that is/was and shall always be, injurious.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2002, 06:02:58 AM »
The other take on Simpson's belief that then Modern Architecture was going the wrong direction (away from Scottish roots) means that if you believe that, then you believe that Golden Age (then modern) archies had it ALL wrong!  Tillie et. al, led us down the wrong path!  Well, history is repeating itself! ;)

Of course, that is a cynical view.  Of all the people golf was blessed with in America (a tribute in itself to the spirit of this great game) it is hard for me to be cynical enough to believe that they didn't consider Scottish roots, but also adapt as necessary to different climate conditions.  We continue to do that today.

I'm not cynical enough, in 20-20 hindsight to say, "you know what, every single one of them got it wrong."  In fact, then and NOW, I am inclined to believe that mot architects are getting it right.  And like Simpson, some bemoan what has to be given up for what is attained.  But, the vitality of golf is still strong, and the spirit is also strong, even if the face of golf is aging a bit.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2002, 06:11:49 AM »
Kelly
I believe you have missed the author’s point. He is neither promoting the curve nor disparaging the line. His point is that both are enhanced by the unexpected and irregular, a break in the line or a twist in the curve. The result is an energy that is exhilarating – it is clear to me that Nature is the inspiration. Vitality and energy are not synonymous with beauty. In fact I don’t see where the author mentions beauty.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2002, 07:15:15 AM »
I think he was trying to say that natures lines are never straight, they are never perfectly curved either.  They are a random mix, and have compound curves, not regular ones.  The square angle, or the straight line happen only occaisionally, but so do perfect curves.

In simple language, if you compare modern bulldozer built bunkers that many don't like here, its simply because the are too REGULAR to look natural.  The Fowler bunkers in another thread have compound curves of different sizes and radii, probably as a result of moving just enough dirt to make the bunker.

When a bulldozer gets in (or frankly, when an architect draws a plan) there is tendency to build it in a parallel axis with the side of the green, and make it too regular.  The architect who draws plans, naturally tries to give "order" to a thing, and it is hard to vary bunker size, etc.  A dozer operator, with a 10 foot blade, tends even more to standard sizes, except the really good ones.

When building with horse and scoop, there was a tendency to tie in grades as quickly as possible.  So, while the inside of the bunker would parallel the green (perhaps) the outside would find natural grade, and might be at some "odd" angle, or varying depth, etc.  This produces randomness rather than symetry.  Same actually goes for outside contours near a green.

Slightly off topic, but trying to contribute.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2002, 09:45:59 AM »
This discussion and interpretation of W&S's foreward and opening philosofic declaration seems to be distilling down to where the rubber meets the road in Jeff's last post.  

W&S first declare themselves to be 'catholic' or traditionalists (for their times) and almost apologise to their adherence to the 'scottish model' of the golf course.  I think that 'scottish model' was code words for ground game on links conditions environment.  As Tommy interprets the motive as a reaction in W&S's time to the "ball out of control" forcing a new architectural paradigm in GCA, which they regretted, but were about to try to deal with in a discussion in architectural terms in their book.  

They went on to an acknowledgement of the fact that first we must have the underpinning of the game of certain skills and ability.  But I think they mixed their concepts in their sentences and were talking about playing skills, military-like strategies, and engineering realities to construct on newer more difficult properties to achieve those strategic fields of play. (I really had to stretch and read between the lines to interpret that from what they said) :P

They go on to define more of their bias on the aesthetic side of design-architecture by declaring their love of a golf course simply-minimally and naturally laid upon the environment, as a course design that collaborates with nature and compliments the unending randomness of the natural world.  

The comments of why one course has vitality and the other is insipid in character is sort of their version of how we on GCA like to say someone "gets it" or doesn't, according to their bias.  

Finally, they seem to be setting the stage for the discussion of the actual construction of courses, or the remodelling of others that they found insipid in character.  But, they caution that as in any partnership, they found they had to compromise and even if they didn't agree on certain fine points of a design technique or ideal, for purposes of the book as a partnership of authors, they put forth their compromises.

Where we on GCA always get hung up is on the aesthetic VS the strategic.  Some see the highly manufactured golf course designs of an architect with a consistent production style who pays less attention to the natural environment and forces his strategic ideas onto the ground time after time, and yet they have a good playing stategy, and can shrug off the lack of natural beauty because they like the way it plays more than they care what it looks like against nature after they 'decorate' the landscape, IMHO :-/    Other's won't give any quarter to a trademark style and high production or formulaic approach and will rail endlessly about what strikes them as insipid design.  They tend to be 'catholic'.  They see a beauty in the old game that can be played along the ground. They didn't like the aerial game that brought length and targets into the equation.  They didn't like the move from traditionally natural links or links-like grounds to forests and unremarkable flat plains because they required altered construction techniques.  

I think Jeff makes a good series of points why the modern high production/construction techniques trend towards the regular, some say insipid, and why they so often vary from the offerings of minimalists who tend to lay the courses out as they go, sans high production techniques and with less emphasis on  drawing documents.  It is obviously a question of having thriving business or starving artist.

We may have bias's that favors strategy over beauty or vice-versa.  And, it gets really tricky when a not so beautifully and integrated with nature course design actually plays very strategic and requires great playing skill and agility.  Some will dislike it just because it doesn't look natural.

So, like W&S says, you put your ideas out there and take your shots, because hardly anyone will agree with it all.   Even they acknowleged they didn't agree on everything, but they agreed to 'just get along' for the sake of the book. :-*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2002, 10:38:28 AM »
Rj,

I'm with Adam in that I don't see a mention of the ball problem.  I took it to be departure from the ground game and/or the standardization of clubs and swings, which I think players right up to, say Lee Trevino, say is still happening, and probably accelerating.

I also don't see them disagreeing with each other.  I think the disagreement is among architects and clubs in general.   I don't doubt that this book was intended as a commercial venture, at a time when the profession was young, and it may have been difficult for clubs to justify fees to architects to get it right.

The bigger question is vitality and injury to the spirit of the game.  I acknowledge how different the game is here, versus old Scotland (from watching the British Open, I think it is even getting more americanized over there, with less ground game than even 20 years ago, due to irrigation.)  

But, is the spirit of the game damaged?  I picked up my son from his high school golf tourney yesterday, and the kids were thrilled and enthused as anyone could be to playing  (well, maybe it was the day off from school) at a medium level country club, and against similar competition.  I know they don't know what it was like to play golf 300 years ago with antiquated equipment, but the thrill is still genuine.  And some schools were filling out their teams with kids who had just started (Hey Dad, there's an opening on the golf team!) but all clearly loved the game.

So, can architecture, or even equipment sap the vitality and spirit of golf?  Or has it made if simply different - giving something to get something, or dare I say, better - by making it easier to play, more consistent and reliable (increasing our expectations of success) etc.?

Or is that type of stuff just for a few "Catholics?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2002, 11:34:54 AM »
Jeff, I have been trying to consider your last post about "spirit of the game" and realise it is not definable within my limitted understanding.  Where does the spirit live?  Is it in the hearts and minds of the players, or on/in the ground of the golf course, or within the rules of the game structure?  I think the spirit is an ever changing concept and adapts to the situation at hand.  What/where was the spirit of the 'Scottish model' these fellows talked about?  They talked about the modern design's departure from the Scottish model"  Was the spirit in the design, on the ground?  Or, as they went on to say, a changed practice (design and construction- the architectural side of golf) as injurious to the spirit of the game, as in a pass-time where the spirit was in the players of olden times, or possibly the old game structure. (big plug for the stymie here) ;)

Did the modern approach (in W&S's context of time) to design and construction (architectural side) take into account the changing conditions of ball and impliment causing them to declare the ruination of the Scottish model "spirit"?  So what was that spirit?  Was it a spirit of conviviality and a social game payed cleverly but hippity-hoppity along the fields?  Or, was the spirit a strategic and competative sense of the game often played against a single match-play opponent upon a certain kind of ground design?  Or, was it a competition between the player and the golf course design directly, like in medal play where you play against all others for low score on the strategic field of play?  What might have been a trend to injure the spirit as W&S knew it, was simply progress and adaptability to varing land and playing conditions as the game grew in numbers, grew into other types of terrain, and grew modern in equipment capabilities.  

I think the spirit is still there in the hearts and minds of players in many senses and variations.  They still have the spirit to compete, and they still have the spirit of the grandness of the game within an honorable structure of playing rules.  But, the spirit is different in every player depending on what they are trying to get out of it.  The spirit of competition for guys on the buy.com tour trying to get into the big show is way different from the guys going out to Nebraska to experience a convivial round of frivolous competition, where they want to experience both a unique course on a field of play of near natural environment and a game of friendship.  The former tend not to focus on the bunker style and aesthetic dimensions, the latter look first to the aesthetic, then to how it plays.  Both are spirited, but in different ways.  

Now we have more choices as to how we want to 'feel the spirit' and on what kind of field of play, which are choices given to us by the archtectural side of golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2002, 11:52:29 AM »
Interesting points Dave.  Maybe there is an analogy of LaCrosse and Ice Hockey there.  But, you had to change one important rule there to make your point.  You had to make the cup a wastebasket to chip into from the design concept of a target like archery as opposed to rolling the ball in the cup like a green.  That is like going from running along the ground with your feet to gliding on the ice with knives strapped to the bottom of your feet. :o

But, we take your example which surely suggests traditional roles can be quite different depending on where the starting point would have been; in the deep dark green forest with a smashing aerial game, or on the velvety turfs on the wind swept dunes of the links. :P  In my personal view, those indians had their moccasins on the wrong foot, and missed half of the fun of the game by not rolling their ball. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something Else To Read
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2002, 12:24:06 PM »
Rj,

Your post firmed up my opinion - the spirit of course rests in the hearts and minds of players.  Competition - friendly or for trophys or money - is the soul of this game, and others.  And golf course design exists soley to encourage that spirit - not as an art form in and of itself.  

And to encourage different playing experiences.  It is great that golf's playing fields vary.  It is part of the spirit of the game, as well.  Not only the varying aesthetics, but in how that course affects your ability to play your best golf, and how a golf course can provide a unique round of golf every time out!  

That is why I think W and S got it wrong.  That's why anyone who advocates designing courses in "his preferred style" is wrong.  No one should try to confine golf design to any certain parameters.  Had they - or anyone - suceeded, we wouldn't have courses in the desert, the prairie, mountains or the farming midwest!  And, despite differing levels of design success, we would not have had a great body of courses to choose from, if architects weren't allowed to experiment with the different art forms.

The competitive spirit within the golfer, like it or not - not architects - have driven golf to where it is.  The drive for universal conditions, fairness, etc. derives from the notion that, for the better player to win most of the time (a reasonable goal for any sports match) luck is diminished, skill is enhanced.  For most games, that comes from gradual revision of rules.  In golf, we add gradual revisions to design and maintenance philosophies as technology allows.  Our great wealth allows devotion to such frivolities that the Scots could hardly imagine!

My readings of the old books confirms for me that this desire was present back then as it is today.  We just keep incrementally creep to perfection.  Of course, we do give something to get something, and sometimes, we bemoan "paradise lost."  But it is all part of the same process.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach