Longaberger--give it a chance

[Jesse Jones]

I've stayed off long enough..I've tried and tried to stay away from this thread..But "I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF".

Glenn S..Stop Laughing..
Tommy N..You Too...

My assesment of Longaberger is that the course is on one of the best pieces of land I've seen in the midwest.
I've told a number of people that my issues with AH is that he builds courses with the 6-6-6 theory. 6 great. 6 OK. 6 burned beyond recognition.

I took another look and Longaberger and it's more like 5-8-5.

What I like..
Just a partial review..

5 and 6 are great. Some just don't like the lack of bailout on 5..I think it's a challenging hole..Sometimes in this game you get no options..Deal with it..
I love 6..I've had the Yahtzee small straight scores on that hole, shooting  3-4-5-6.
Every  shot on that hole will make you think..The green complex with the pot bunkers and that wild green is diabolical.
I actually like 8..I go for the flat everytime.
17 is a great hole anywhere.

What I don't like..
1 and 4..nuff said. By everyone.
7 just is a let down after two superb holes. As soon as you think the course is getting real good..7 puts you to sleep.
12...zzzzzzzzzzzzz

I can live with everything else on the course.
It's just as soon as you think the course is getting better..It's either bores you..or pi**es you off.
 
For example..8 great hole..9 challenging hole..10 good risk reward hole..11 very good short par 4..12 WHAT..13 boredom..14 bad hole with a great view..Then 15-18 are good..With 17 as the most outstanding of that bunch.


I could go into some real bad AH holes on other courses..I mean all friggin timers..
But you have to give him his props on some of the nice holes he's done.
I can always remember a couple of good holes he's done on each course.
But Longaberger is a dissapointment given the property..


Jesse

P.S. It has an awesome practice facility.

[Jordan Wall]

I've stayed off long enough..I've tried and tried to stay away from this thread..But "I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF".

Glenn S..Stop Laughing..
Tommy N..You Too...

My assesment of Longaberger is that the course is on one of the best pieces of land I've seen in the midwest.
I've told a number of people that my issues with AH is that he builds courses with the 6-6-6 theory. 6 great. 6 OK. 6 burned beyond recognition.

I took another look and Longaberger and it's more like 5-8-5.

What I like..
Just a partial review..

5 and 6 are great. Some just don't like the lack of bailout on 5..I think it's a challenging hole..Sometimes in this game you get no options..Deal with it..
I love 6..I've had the Yahtzee small straight scores on that hole, shooting  3-4-5-6.
Every  shot on that hole will make you think..The green complex with the pot bunkers and that wild green is diabolical.
I actually like 8..I go for the flat everytime.
17 is a great hole anywhere.

What I don't like..
1 and 4..nuff said. By everyone.
7 just is a let down after two superb holes. As soon as you think the course is getting real good..7 puts you to sleep.
12...zzzzzzzzzzzzz

I can live with everything else on the course.
It's just as soon as you think the course is getting better..It's either bores you..or pi**es you off.
 
For example..8 great hole..9 challenging hole..10 good risk reward hole..11 very good short par 4..12 WHAT..13 boredom..14 bad hole with a great view..Then 15-18 are good..With 17 as the most outstanding of that bunch.


I could go into some real bad AH holes on other courses..I mean all friggin timers..
But you have to give him his props on some of the nice holes he's done.
I can always remember a couple of good holes he's done on each course.
But Longaberger is a dissapointment given the property..


Jesse

P.S. It has an awesome practice facility.

I think I liked it better on Monday when Jesse could actually show some emotion saying these things
 

Just imagine...
"Longaberger's site was the s**t man.  The course though, man, the course was weird..."
Now imagine that, with emotion!!!!!!!!!!!

[Glenn Spencer]

Jesse- you are just straight classic, man!! Good analysis. How on this earth do you like 8? I am sitting beside myself on that one. Pretty? Yes, but if that is a good golf hole, I have to say that I am in the wrong game. God couldn't convince that was a good hole!! I have no issues except that great seems a touch stong for 6, but that is neither here nor there.

Andy,

I am enjoying our discussion, I will talk Hills anytime, but 8? That is so bad that I can't believe we are discussing it. I am not exaggerating when I say I did not think they could be built that bad. Really. 17 is the only hole on the golf course that I think belongs on a real course. If some course had a green problem, you could sub in 5, but that is it.

I started a Crooked Stick thread a while ago. There is nothing in the vicinity of anything bad there IMO. 1 is not great, but a fine starter considering. I can't imagine walking off MVGC and Crooked Stick and someone saying they liked MVGC better. I am not saying they are wrong, just can't imagine it.

6 is just as good as it gets. Hard to imagine a better par 3. I loved the tee shot on 7. liked the second and the elevated green a lot also with the false front. 2,3,4,5 are just really solid golf holes. We played 4 with the pin front left over the bunker and it was fabulous. 8? I think I really like it, but I might love it, not sure. 9 is a good par 5, I like how the go range is kind of sloped and my partner showed how valuable going left off the tee is. He cut off probably 25 yards and hit 3-iron, while I had 3-wood from the center. The right side of the green on 10 is nasty and the whole thing is really a good green. 11? The tee shot left brings the bunkers in, but cuts off so much and keeps you in the fairway, I speak from experience those bunkers are trouble. Off the tee, you think the fairway is there on the right but it is not and that is thick over there. 6 is a possibility if you are in the rough on first or second. The green is all-world in the back with the bunker right there. 12 is not my favorite hole. The right is kind of iffy.The green is pretty good. 13 is special hole. I would hate to play that with the pin left-ouch. 14? It is OK, I like the second shot a lot and the back pin with the ridge leading to it is cool. Trouble is close left and right didn't look like a party either. 15? Unreal, absolutely unreal!! 16- same thing, 17 might be my favorite par 3 ever, if it wasn't for 6, it still might though. The interesting about this hole is that water on 18 is right there if you are long. You don't have to notice it, but it is right there. 18? Tee shot is really hard because that gully on the left is so bad, so bad, and the blue is to the right. Good green with a lot of pin options and left is not that wonderful either. All in all, it might be my favorite golfing experience. I was blown away. I did play with the right guys and we had a good time, but it might not have mattered at all.

1 and 12 are the only holes that you can say are not fantastic IMO. Longaberger does have a better practice facility though.

[Andy Troeger]

Jesse,
   Glad to see someone else thinks 8 is worthwhile, even if there's a less than zero chance of Glenn seeing the light on that one  

Glenn,
   I generally agree with your analysis of Crooked Stick, its hard for me to say much specific as its been 10 years and I remember the holes but not the specifics of greens and bunkers and all that.  I do agree it has a great set of par threes, including #3. #13 was probably my favorite of the bunch, but they're all good. I've only walked the back nine at MVGC during the tournament awhile back so I really don't have much basis to compare. The Golf Club and Blackwolf Run-River are my favorite Pete Dye courses, but Crooked Stick is up there.
   I don't think anyone is saying that Longaberger is as good as Crooked Stick, and I have a hard time with the argument that the property at LB was SOOOO good that it should have been, it would have been very difficult to build a very walkable course on that property due to the severity of it.
   I obviously completely disagree with your comment that there's only two holes at Longaberger that belong on a real course. I'd say that by making some changes on #4 that Longaberger itself might be in the running for being a "real course!"  I don't think I'm going to change your mind though on that count  

[Glenn Spencer]

Jesse and Andy,

First of all Jesse, you played it 4 times?? This had to be for the CPC or something, otherwise this is unacceptable.  I am just wondering, Did either of you think that 8 was hokey? The thought had to enter your mind, right? Did you guys stand on the tee and say this looks like a classic, or What the hell is this? How about when you were in the fairway on the right? The left side is pretty narrow with OB or trees whatever left and a gully to carry. I guess Hills wasn't concerned with wind here, because you can always go right and have 180 from a ball at your eyes stance to a water surrounded green with a cartpath and stand of trees as your aiming point. This hole is 30 years of Hills shennanigans all wrapped in to one. 8 makes 4 look like 4 at Bethpage it is so bad.

p.s.- what is it to carry the gully from the back? 240-250?

[Doug Sobieski]

Glenn:

On my one trip around Longaberger, on #8 I hit a decent drive down the right fairway. My buddy (who hits it 30 yards shorter than I do) follows that by hitting a diving toe-hook that trickles slooooowly down the ski slope all the way to the bottom of the hill past all the trees. He subsequently has a short wedge into the green after a smothered drive.

Risk/reward at its best  

[Glenn Spencer]

Doug,

I think Jesse and Andy are having a little fun with me. There is no possible way that you can play good golf courses in your life and not think that 8 is a joke. They should sell tickets and cotton candy on that tee.

[Ronald Montesano]

I knew that if I dug around enough dirt, I'd find a thread with Tommy Nacc waxing poetic and philosophical about Longaberger...and here it is!

I did not purchase the yardage book (Kevin Lynch will be mad at me!) so the holes are still so muddled in my mind that I'll have to look at my photos before commenting.  If you want to see my Longaberger images (including the mammoth Basket office building) click here:  http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Longaberger/

I played Longaberger from the tips, the Blacks, around 7300 yards.  My friend Jeff (he appears in some of the photos, slapping at the ball) played it from the whites (around 6100).  I am a 5 handicap and Jeff would probably qualify as a 25 or 30, if he played more than 3x per year.  We alter the assessment that Longaberger is a power player's course to one that reads:  Longaberger is a PLAYER'S course.  If you can keep it straight and select the correct tee blocks, you will enjoy excellent fairways and rough and satisfying approach shots into segmented, undulating greens.  If you tend toward the lateral sliders (as Jeff does,) you will lose 16 golf balls (as Jeff did) and recognize just how challenging golf can be.

This is my third Arthur Hills course (Bay Harbor and Boyne Highlands being the previous two) and I can comfortably say that this one represented for me a target golf course, in direct contrast to the other two.  Longaberger is very unforgiving in the lateral sense.  If you miss short or slightly long of target, you will be much better served than if you err wide left or right.  HOWEVER, if one assesses the better side on which to miss and subsequently plays the shot in from that side, there exists an opportunity to play the course with substantial lateral movement.

Unlike some of the previous posters, I did not find any of the holes to be gimmicky.  I thought that #4 made sense as a risk/reward par five, that the green held quite well, certainly well enough for a hybrid or 4 metal second shot.  I did not find #7 to be a boring hole...it marched up the slope and moved well from right to left.

What I did find on Longaberger is that Arthur Hills likes dramatic, hole-concluding doglegs.  He makes things happen in the final 120 yards of a hole, moving around bunker stacks, water and marsh hazards to force the issue at the end.  If you like to run the ball to the green, it won't always be an option.

I know that I have more to say, but I will wait to see what others have written (hopefully, others will have written...) on the subject.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Can someone explain to me is there such a thing as a great course that bears the name of Art Hills ?

I've played my share and played Longaberger a few years back. Liked it -- but it's not super stellar stuff worthy of national acclaim.

Just an opinion from the cheap seats.

[Cliff Hamm]

Newport National - maybe not great but excellent.  Best public in New England. 

[Dan Grossman]

Matt, I would tend to agree with you.  Growing up in Northwest Ohio, I saw my fair share of his work as he has a lot of courses there (although not his best work).  My favorite that I have played is probably Half Moon Bay, although that course is certainly not great.  

I don't think I have played what folks would consider his "best work," however.  Any idea on what that might be?  I'm guessing it might be Bighorn or Bay Harbor?

[Matt_Ward]

Cliff:

Best public in NE !

There are some really solid candidates for you to state that.

Have you played Balsams, the courses at Lake of Isles, Breton Woods, etc, etc ?

Interesting comment indeed.

Dan:

I have never been enamored with Bay Harbor -- there are a few holes on the Quarry side that are worth the price of admission. But too much of what could have been was simply wasted by Hills.

I have played Big Horn and it's good -- but it's not a top tier must play layout in the Cocheela Valley and I have played nearly all the top contenders there. Just my thoughts.

[Ronald Montesano]

I would call Longaberger a "B" course.  It is in great shape and presents 18 challenging holes, but they do not all pass the "hard par, easy bogey" criteria that I utilize as part of determining a great course.

Bay Harbor (at least two of the three nines) would be the closest to "great" of the three that I have played.

[Cliff Hamm]

Have played many, many publics in NE.  Lake of Isles, yes.  Balsams, no.  Breton Woods years ago before the renovation.  Would place it above courses such as the Pine Hills courses, Red Tail, The Ranch, Belgrade Lakes, among others.  Have you played NN?

[Ronald Montesano]

Is it so good because it was initially a private club?  Typically the private club is built to a higher design standard, anticipating less play than a public venture.

[Richard Hetzel]

I played Longaberger GC back in May. I liked it, but I am not sure why it is ranked the number 1 public in Ohio. If anyone wants me to post pic, I can. I thought it was a nice course, but nothing design-wise really jumped out at me.

[Cliff Hamm]

Is it so good because it was initially a private club?  Typically the private club is built to a higher design standard, anticipating less play than a public venture.

NN was built as a private course.  They were supposed to add a public designed by Brad Faxon/Brad Booth but fell through.  Your point is well taken....  But certainly can't say that it is so good because it was designed to be private but I do feel it is the best in New England.  Wide fairways, links style, plays fast and firm, requires thought, great chipping areas around the greens, contours on the greens but far from over the top, best conditioned course I have played in NE, etc.

[cary lichtenstein]

Bette n I played it years ago n thought it was a waste of time, overrated

[Ronald Montesano]

Cary,

Elaborate,please, on "waste of time."

[Richard Hetzel]

Very simply, the "hype" at Longaberger just doesn't equal the golfing experience here. At least, I didn't feel as "let down" as I did after playing Bay Harbor! Furthermore, the course is typical of what Art gets paid to do, design "cart golf" golf courses. This is cart golf, sans houses. I would bet that there are no homes because the Longaberger family had deeper pockets when it was built, and lots were not required to be sold to pay for the course.

I'll post some pics of Longaberger this evening.

[Jason Topp]

The pictures remind me a lot of Chaska Town Course in Minnesota.  I think the course is very fun to play but many similar criticisms are made of the course - a tough walk including a big hill climb after the finisher, some great holes and some head scratchers, a tree in the middle of the fairway on a hole where the layup off the tee would be a short iron. 

[Ronald Montesano]

What hole are we discussing with a tree in the middle of the fairway?  #1?  By my estimation, the tree had precious little to do with the playing of the hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Again, just to repeat -- minus possibly a very few number of courses is there anything that Hills has done that merits national acclaim ?

[Andy Troeger]

Ronald,
My issue with the 4th as I remember it is that you're hitting a long-iron or hybrid off a downhill lie to a shallow green with a hazard on about three sides. Its do-able certainly, but the risk/reward meter is off a bit in my estimation. I'm sure I'd score better overall by laying up every time and taking my chances from 90 yards.

I do agree with most of the rest of your comments--its probably a "B" course and the tree on #1 is inconsequential. I think the course has a pretty good "fun factor" but perhaps does have a few holes that aren't architectural masterpieces. It's the best Art Hills design that I've played, but I can't say that I seek them out. I do also enjoy Ironbridge out in Colorado for its fun factor and unique nature, but it makes Longaberger look like an easy walk.

[Steve Burrows]

Again, just to repeat -- minus possibly a very few number of courses is there anything that Hills has done that merits national acclaim ?

Matt W.

How about you try to focus on discussing this particular golf course, rather than undermining the entire career of Arthur Hills? 
The same words as above could be said for very nearly all of the designers who participate on this website.  Will you be questioning their portfolio as well?