Longaberger--give it a chance

[Andy Troeger]

I had the opportunity to play Longaberger yesterday, and after everything I had read on here I was really pleasantly surprised. The site for the course is fantastic, and in that regard I can see how some would feel that the course does not match the site. However, its still very much worth playing, especially at the twilight rate of $75. We played at 2:30 on a Sunday, so it was very easy to finish even though we had to dodge thunderstorms a couple of times.

Regarding some of the specific holes...
#1 is a little odd with the tree in the fairway, however the tree is a long way from the tee, I hit a good drive and did not quite get to it from the 6800 yard tees. I liked the green, which slopes much more severely than it looks. Not a great hole, but I wouldn't classify it as bad either.

#4 was my least favorite on the course. I went for it in two and ended up ok, but its not worth it. If you play it as a three shot hole it works, but its short enough to give it a go and its frustrating in that regard, the green is just too narrow with too much trouble around it.

I thought #8-11 was a very good stretch of holes. 8 is the one with the peninsula green and enormously wide fairway. My group hit four very different tee shots and all of us managed either a 4 or an easy 5. For a strong player, one can go right up the hill, take it just right of the trees (worst option as you must be long), or go way left down to the flat part of the fairway. If you go left, you have a level lie but must carry the water, from the right, its all downhill but there's a lot of room in front of the green if you don't want to be agressive. If going for the back left portion of the green from anywhere, you must be accurate, but its a pretty fair target.  There's a ton of options on this hole, which I think would make it fun for repeat play.

11 is a short 350ish par 4 with a tee shot that can be played with anything from driver to an iron. The approach is over a creek to a green that slopes fairly severely in spots from back to front. Not a new hole, but not really that hard and a pretty good birdie opportunity with a well placed drive.

Overall, again this is definitely a course worth playing, even though I know others will disagree with me. Its not the best course I've ever played, and this very admittedly is only a first impression, but there's some definite strategy to playing some of the holes, and nothing I would describe as really bad. #4 could have been better, and I can understand how its not everyone's cup of tea, but I think its an enjoyable round, and worthy of being one of the top 100 public in the country as it is rated.

[Brent Hutto]

I've not played Longaberger, only walked it twice. The site is spectacular and the course is challenging, especially due to the changes of elevation and uphill/downhill/sidehill lies. When I saw it the setup was for the CPC and while there was enough width on many holes for some strategy to be in play, all of the width started 270, 280, 290 yards from the tee. So basically the guys who were hitting 8-irons and wedges into the green could choose a side of the fairway for best angles but the medium hitters driving it 240-250 had very narrow landing zones and then were hitting 4-irons from there. Kind of anti-strategic. I would say that the largeish greens had plenty of interesting undulation.

As I say, maybe that was the fault of the PGA committee that was setting up the course for that particular championship. But to some extent I believe the course was designed with its optimal (in the GCA sense) width being mostly fairly close to the green. I doubt very much I'll ever be able to judge the course by playing it because the walk around the property as a spectator seriously dissuaded me from ever attempting to walk it as a player (and I doubt they'd let me anyway). I can think of several other spectacular cart-ball courses that I'd rather play than Longaberger and I can think of several walkable courses in central Ohio that look more enjoyable for my short-hitter's game.

With no insult intended, I'd speculate that Matt Ward would find Longaberger more interesting than I would. I think it is designed to be a lovely layout that offers a challenge to power players with plenty of variety to the shapes and terrains of the various holes. Not intended for someone who prefers your basic compact, fast-and-firm old-fashioned layout with small to medium sized greens.

[John_Cullum]

This thread should get interesting.

[ed_getka]

Andy,
   I agree with much of your assessment. I found it to be a pretty good course, and we also played twilight and at that rate I felt it was a little high, but certainly not a ripoff, for the quality of the architecture. I felt the course could have been better given the qualities of that land, but all in all it is a good course. I found some of the greens to be pretty interesting and there were a couple that completely fooled me when I putted them. I look forward to hearing about your trip up north.

[Jordan Wall]

I am dying to play Longaberger
From a gca'er whom I played with today, about Longaberger.

"Six of the holes compare to Augusta, six compare to here {Harbour Point}, and the other six are so bad they cannot be compared to anything"

Oh my, Arthur Hills, just what did you do...

[John_Conley]

Is Harbour Point the one where all I saw were rooftops on the back nine?

[Jordan Wall]

All you saw was me hitting all the rooftops on the back nine...
 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Two, one two three four
Ev'rybody's talking about
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism, is-m, is-m, is-m.

All we are saying is give Longaberger a chance
All we are saying is give Longaberger a chance

C'mon
Ev'rybody's talking about Ministers,
Sinisters, Banisters and canisters
Bishops and Fishops and Rabbis and Pop eyes,
And bye bye, bye byes.

All we are saying is give Longaberger a chance
All we are saying is give Longaberger a chance

Let me tell you now
Ev'rybody's talking about
Revolution, evolution, masturbation,
flagellation, regulation, integrations,
meditations, United Nations,
Congratulations.

All we are saying is give Longaberger a chance
All we are saying is give Longaberger a chance

Ev'rybody's talking about
John and Yoko, Timmy Leary, Art Hills,
Tommy Smothers, Bobby Dylan, Tommy Cooper,
Derek Taylor, Norman Mailer,
Alan Ginsberg, Hare Krishna,
Hare, Hare Krishna

All we are saying is give Longaberger a chance
All we are saying is give Longaberger a chance

[Jesse Jones]

Tommy,

That's some funny sh**..
By The Way..
How did you play for those few holes at KPV after I gave you the Dreaded Longerberger Bag Tag..
Just to jog your memory, you threw it back at me!!

Jesse

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jesse,
 I was actually laughing about that when I posted that above, hoping to smoke you out of the woodwork!

I'm standing on the 1st green, first day at the Palms, seconds after nailing  a pretty long putt to save par and Jesse proceeds to give me this Longaberger bag tag.

Given the years and years of posting on this site, it was just perfect timing--and it was obvious--I was addicted to that "Lets Bash Longaberger!" thread, even though I never posted on it, let alone even see the course. But the debate was passionate and of course Jesse's timing, spot on!

I'm still laughing about it!

Almost as instantly as he gave me the medallion/bag tag, I proceed to hit my tee shot off of the toe and put it into the bunker on the second. I then manage to skull the next one out of the bunker into the mesquite. I'm out of the hole.

At the next tee, I give Jesse the medallion back, realizing that it is bad Longaberger mojo and it proceeds to take a hole and a half to get rid of it.

Luckily I realized early the ruse of Jesse's plan to win the match!

Some guys will do anything to win!

[ed_getka]

That's a funny story about the Longaberger bag tag. It wasn't that long ago that some other GCA'er was trying to give away a Longaberger towel.

[Jordan Wall]

That's a funny story about the Longaberger bag tag. It wasn't that long ago that some other GCA'er was trying to give away a Longaberger towel.

Arent towels for wiping the mud and crap off clubs..
seems to me somebody likes Longaberger if they are giving it away
I have a suggestion though, give it to Glenn
 

[Glenn Spencer]

OK, I have held out long enough. I was able to outlast Jesse, otherwise, I would not have allowed myself to post at all. Jesse should be given his props, he did hold out quite a while. Jordan, you are an instigator, but a funny one, so that is fine.  Driving past Granville to get to Longaberger is like passing up Jennifer Aniston for Angelina Jolie, it has been done before, but that doesn't mean it is a smart thing to do. The golf course is a joke and it is as simple as that. Lonaberger towels? Send them on over, I need dishrags too.

[Brent Hutto]

Driving past Granville to get to Longaberger is like passing up Jennifer Aniston for Angelina Jolie, it has been done before, but that doesn't mean it is a smart thing to do.

I do suspect that my estimation of Longaberger suffered in comparison to Granville. I was there for three days, walking around Longaberger as a tournament spectator and then playing golf at Granville. I wouldn't trade nine holes at Granville for a free week's pass to Longaberger, the fun factor just isn't there.

Plus there's the routing issue. Playing 45 holes at Granville is no more tiring than walking 18 at Longaberger, what a long tourgh slog it is. Beautiful, though. And great greens. But Granville is a real golf course as far as I'm concerned, not just a pretty face.

[Doug Sobieski]

Plus there's the routing issue. Playing 45 holes at Granville is no more tiring than walking 18 at Longaberger, what a long tough slog it is. Beautiful, though. And great greens.

I walked my one round at Longaberger. It was one of the toughest walks I've ever taken (9 to 10 is brutal). And once you finish 18 (which climbs straight uphill), you've still got to climb the steepest hill to get back to the clubhouse!!!  

[Andy Troeger]

Tommy and Jordan,
Thanks for getting things going with this thread...I was surprised it took as long as it did!

For those of you that really hate the golf course, are there specific holes that are offensive/repulsive/distasteful/(insert other negative word here)? Obviously its cartball generally, but that's not a site that would have been very walkable in any case. Also I'll give you all that #4 could be much better, but I've yet to hear much criticism of other holes...just a bunch of general statements. If there are 6 awful holes, what are the other ones? If this has already been done just post the thread and I'll go back and read it, but I already read most of the recent ones, and that was pretty general too.

This is probably a dangerous question to post...oh well, I'm asking anyway  

[Craig Sweet]

Here's a link to some pretty good photo's of the course...

http://www.photographerscolumbus.com/longaber/index.htm

[Jordan Wall]

Glenn,
I gotta love the passion for hating a course so much...I have just never seen it before.  I think its funny you bash Longaberger so much but it is even funnier to me that most people that have played it feel the exact same way.  I'll make one or two phone calls and get you that dish towel btw..
 
Andy,
This is what a gca'er I played with a couple days ago said.  Not exact words so I wont quote it, but about what he said..
--'The first hole is stupid, a joke.  A huge dogleg right, like 420 from the tips, and way uphill with a tree in the middle of the fairway that cannot even be reached with the drive.  But then the second hole, its magnificent, and the thiord as well.  But then the fourth, just stupid.  People have hit a SW to a 3-wood into that hole and everything in between.  If you want to lay up then you are on this huge downslope unless you go back all the way to 120 yards, where there is finally a flat lie.  The hill is so steep that if your drive catches it it could go well over 300 yards and is an easy birdie which is dumb,l because of lack of opitons.  Then the fifth hole, a GREAT par three.  Man, Jordan, the whole course is like that, just up, and then down...'
So Andy, those are a couple hole descriptions I have heard first hand...

JJ,
Man you never told me about the bagtag incident...
 

[Andy Troeger]

Jordan,
Thanks for the comment. A few of the specifics are things I would question. The first is uphill with a tree in the middle of the fairway at the dogleg, and it is correct that at least I couldn't reach it (or really come all that close). In a sense, its not even in play, so I don't see why that makes it a bad hole. The dogleg is probably 70 degrees, so you play completely away from it on the 2nd shot. Its not an all-world starter, but I don't get the criticism of it.  

The 4th as I've said I agree with, the entire hole slopes down the hill so its hard to find a level lie, which when you've got trouble on three sides of the green is a bit much for me. I still don't think its all that hard to make a 5 though, and its not such a weak hole that it ruins the entire course on its own IMO. I don't see there being all that much that's bad after #4 though, I guess that's my point.  There are a lot of options on the hole, but none of them are very good; the rewards are not worth the risks, and the safe play leaves a downhill-lie with a wedge.

By the way, I would imagine most people that play the place enjoy it and think its very good; it is ranked fairly highly in the public ranks by all the major lists so someone evidently thinks its worthwhile other than Ed and I. Its not a GCA style of course, and most of the GCA'ers that have played it don't like it evidently.

[cary lichtenstein]

Bette and I played it last summer and could not understand its #1 or #2 ranking of public courses in Ohio by the different publications.

Surely Ohio has much better public product thru out the state.

[Glenn Spencer]

Andy,

You wanted to hear some thoughts, how about going back to the other GREAT golf courses that you have played and asking yourself if No.1 fit in. How about asking if there were any holes like No. 4, where there was a real lack of understanding of what anyone should do when playing that hole. Then, let's pretend that you drove the ball right on No. 8 and it stayed up there and was 5 feet above your feet, ever have that shot on a great golf course from the middle of the fairway to a peninsula green? How about that tee shot? Why must so much be accomplished off the tee to play a golf hole? I can carry the ball as far as you need me to most times and looked at that hole and said what the HELL is this, WHERE do I hit it? You can't tell me that you can par that hole going right without getting lucky to some degree. 9? Not a bad hole at all, I have played plenty of those though. 10? It is not a good hole, maybe it isn't the worst hole ever, but it is far from good. 11? You could see this hole on a real course somewhere. maybe. 12? What a fantastic hole, all the thought that must have been used here. 13 is fine. 14 is to say the least uninspiring. 15-18 all have nothing that sticks out, with 17 being the best hole among them, kind of like being the world's tallest midget. 18 was pretty damn mundane!! I didn't think 2 was anything real good by the way, but that could just be my opinion on that one. The rest of the holes that I mentioned I know are bad. It is just typical Hills stuff out there. When I play his golf courses, I feel like it is a different game and I don't like it. This course is no different. 8 would be the worst hole I have ever played if it wasn't for Hills having set his trap in Ohio and myself playing 10 other bad Hills holes. In my all-time worst 20, Hills probably has 13-17 holes and No. 8 certainly belongs. 4 might as well, with 1 not being too far behind. Yeah, this is a good course alright.

[ed_getka]

Andy,
  If you search back for an Art Hills thread in the past 6 months you will find a really really long thread. I gave more details of my thoughts on the course then. I remember less about the course with each passing day so other than #4 I can't recall, but there were other questionable holes.

[Andy Troeger]

Ed,
Thanks, I had looked back and that thread and did some more. I keep asking the question because besides your previous comments and a few others, there's no real analysis of any holes other than #1, 4, and 8. I agree with your comment that there are far far worse holes in the world than #8, and that it didn't even take a really well hit drive for me to reach the lower flat part of the fairway. Plus, the bail out area to the right of the green is huge, and you can practically bunt the ball down the hill to it. Its an easy 5 if you don't want to take the risk. The fairway is 150 yards wide...I hit a hooked drive and a sand wedge in, I don't get what's so bad or so hard about it.

Glenn,
I never said Longaberger was a GREAT golf course, but I think it qualifies as a good one. Its not the Golf Club, or Crooked Stick, or any number of other great midwest courses. It is as good as pretty much any of the other public layouts that I've played that are similar price. Its much more worthwhile than many $125 courses in expensive locals; I've not played any other public golf in Ohio so I don't have much basis for comparison.

Other than those few holes, you're still not supporting your opinion. What's really wrong with 1, or 10? If 14 is completely uninspiring I'd like some examples of holes that do inspire you...you're a tough critic. 15-18 is a pretty good stretch of holes to me, and I liked the false front on 18 green to complicate the long finisher. The "mundane" holes at Longaberger that you mention beat the pants off the "mundane" holes at a lot of places I've been.

From your comments as a whole it seems like your feelings against Hills prevent you from seeing anything he does as having much merit whatsoever. I'm not really that interested in that aspect of it, I'm sure I'll give some of his other efforts a try eventually. I've only played a handful of his courses, with none of the others being anything exciting, so I'm looking at the golf course individually, not in the context of all his other courses.

[Glenn Spencer]

Andy,

I just got timed out with the holes that inspire me, so what are some of the courses you have played and I will tell you the holes on those that inspire me, otherwise my list is too long, because I am not a harsh critic.

1? There is a tree in the left side of the fairway and the fairway slopes left to right in to bunkers and 30-inch below your feet stances. Need I say more?

14? I don't know, some women are hot, some aren't. Some holes inspire, some don't. This one didn't for me. The right is dead and the left you have nothing. What are the options here beside shoot at the hole and hope. Where do you bail?

You say that the holes at Longaberger 'beat the pants off' the places you have been, that is not my fault. Let's hear what is so good about them. You described 4 holes, two of them you didn't like!!! What is it about Hills? I don't get it, you want me to describe the place and each blade on 1 and 14, but you played it and want people to give a chance, yet the holes you describe 2 out 4 you don't like and one of the others is just plain disgustingly bad. Take the beauty out of 8 and a lot less people would be fooled. The tee-shot is an insult to one's golf game and the second is just plain stupid from the fairway.

[Andy Troeger]

Glenn,
Essentially I just wanted you to defend your very negative position to the golf course. My position is quite a bit more neutral in saying that its good than your constant bashing of the place at every chance you get. Quite frankly its rather humorous (literally...I don't mean that to sound like a sarcastic comment), but then after I played the course I didn't see a lot of what you saw.

Regarding specific holes, I agree with Ed's previous comments about #5 and 6 greens. 6 is especially good for a short 4, and I was shocked when I misread a short chip on 5 by about 8 feet...oops.

I'll add to #11 that one thing I liked was that the hillside to the left made it a benefit to keep nearer the trouble on the right off the tee to get a better view of the green. Combine that with the options off the tee and I think its one of the better holes I've seen in the 350 yard range.

#14 is one of the better views on the course, and I disagree with your statement that you've got "nothing" left. Hitting it right is trouble, but its still an easy 4 with a decent pitch. I don't see anything wrong with that, there's a lot of holes with less recovery chance than that one.

#16 is a nice short five at the end of the round, with a tee shot that forces the player to test the water right in order to get a better chance to go for the green. The huge tier in the green forces the player from any yardage to think before flying it past a front/middle flag. There's a good chance for birdie, but reckless play can lead to problems.

#17 is a nice 4 that has a good angled green and a drive that strays too far right can be blocked by the trees, even though it appears that there's some open area in the rough from the tee. Pretty solid hole.

#18 is a strong finisher, long and uphill with a false front to repel approaches that are not struck solidly.

I will also argue that if you are long enough for the tree on #1 to be anywhere in play that you are then easily long enough to reach the flat left fairway on #8 (which is still very wide).

That was enough worthwhile holes for me to think the place is worth the effort to play. There's others as well that are worthwhile. The only one I really didn't care from is #4, and I don't think one hole ruins a course.

What are your favorite holes at Crooked Stick, since I've been there and I know you thought highly of it. Its a fine course and I do agree its the better of the two, just not by quite as much as you do