Bandon to....Arthur?

[Wyatt Halliday]

*

[Tom Huckaby]

The ocean is a powerful draw... but then again not all seaside courses are wild successes.

Create three golf courses all at the same site, all ranked in the Top whatever by each of the big magazines, and the people will come.  It won't matter if they're in the north of Maine or the wildest reaches of North Dakota or the farthest parts of west Texas or whatever.

TH

[George Pazin]

Wyatt, I believe the general consensus is that the oceanside setting for Bandon is crucial to the success of a resort venture. Nebraska would work for some of us, but I don't know if there are enough of us junkies.

If you do a search, you will find we discussed this a couple times; late last summer and last fall are my best recollection for the time frame. I'll try to see if I can find something for you later.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Yes in principle, but there are many differences between the two. I do think Bandon created a modal to give others the ability to do similar projects.

[Tom Huckaby]

BV - that's generally a good point... year-round golf would seem to be a requirement...

But then how would you explain Kohler?

That seems to be pretty darn successful.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Then I guess you can throw away the mobile home for a clubhouse idea.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tom,

How can you possibly discount the utterly charming effect of Sheboygan in December?

[Tom Huckaby]

Wyatt  - never been there.  I'd assume it does have it charms.  It just also does have snow, no?

 

And BV, of course.  But it also only has 2-3 golf seasons, correct?

My comment was just a counter to your seeming insistence on year-round golf weather.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ocean, nowheresville mid-america in the tornado belt ....

Nae wind, nae golf!  

[Tim Pitner]

I think a Bandon-like resort could work in Nebraska or some similar place (the Prairie Club in Valentine is counting on it).  But, I think there are two requirements:  (1) very good golf courses--no one's going to travel there for mediocrity; and (2) sensible pricing--there's a market for a resort featuring reasonably affordable, links-type golf, but once the prices approach Bandon and other places, people will opt for the coasts.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - that's a hell of a good point also... a "poor man's Bandon" would work VERY well.   Great courses, well-received, reviewed, publicized... at more affordable prices... yes indeed, that would make many turn inland.

TH

[George Pazin]

I think The Prairie Club is also counting somewhat on the hunting club portion of the resort for its financial success.

They can count on at least one patron.

[Tim Pitner]

Tom,

Just to follow up on that point, a good friend of mine who I've taken to Bandon on two occasions loves the golf and experience out there, but continues to complain about the prices.  Now, this is a guy who isn't particularly wanting financially and is a very good golfer.  I'm sure we all know people like this (I know Matt Ward does because he's written about them).  He would go to a "poor man's Bandon" in a heartbeat.  And, you could probably bring in some people who wouldn't even seriously consider going to a place like Bandon very often.  I'd love to be an investor in a resort like this, but I'm afraid any contribution from me would have to come in another form.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - more music to my ears - I concur completely, and have similar friends.

Bandon is pricing themselves out of the average joe's reality.  But of course, they no longer need the average joe.

Interestingly, what we are describing is what Bandon itself was it's first couple years... The main reason I went the first time was because it was great as well as pretty cheap... compared to NorCal golf anyway it was a freakin' bargain.

Of course the toughest trick is going to be creating these similarly great golf courses AND keeping the prices reasonable.  

But if you build that, they will come.  Insert haunting voice and mood music.

 

 

[Matt MacIver]

Does the RTJ Trail in Alabama sort of qualify along these lines?  

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - yeah, sort of - great golf at a good price.  Of course the principle in Alabama is a little different - linking many courses an hour or two's drive apart - but this is in the ballpark.  And the RTJ Trail is doing pretty well, correct?

Of course to get the home run like Bandon, you're gonna need home run courses like Bandon.  That's the tough trick.  None of the RTJ courses rise to this level, obviously.  

Call the RTJ Trail a legged-out double.  Seems to me there are more triples and home runs to be found in this country, and yours!  It's just gonna take vision and huevos maximos like Mr. Keiser.

TH

[Matt MacIver]

Tom -

I agree, we've considered RTJ Trail for several years now but have opted to go places where less course-to-course travel is required and there is at least one "flagship" course (Pinehurst, Kiawah, Hilton Head, etc).  I've got very little interest in those newer courses, spread so far apart, until I'm able to cross a lot more older, classic resort courses off the list...and the newer "classics" too!  

[David_Tepper]

This topic has been discussed here before.  The big obstacle to creating a Bandon-like golf resort in the mid-west is that the payback time on your investment is much, much, much longer than developing a high-end private club.  If you can collect 100 initiation fees at $30m each in your first 12-18 months of operation, that is $3million in your pocket, plus you have secured a very nice future revenue stream thru collecting monthly dues.

On the other hand, operating a daily fee golf course/resort has a much longer payback and requires far more attention and promotion on an ongoing basis. It's hard work!  

Plus, Bandon can sell teetimes on a year round basis, while I doubt you could operate in Kansas/Nebraska for more than 7-8 months a year.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

Well said, and well-summarized.  Yep, those are the obtacles.

BUT... it worked at Bandon.

That's what I mean by there being other home runs and triples out there, but such would require developers with the vision, patience, and huevos maximos of Mr. Keiser.

Oregon's weather isn't all that great, btw.  They surely didn't build there counting on much golf in the winter.  I'd have to think there are places with equal or superior year-round weather just waiting to be created... no?

So perhaps NE, and other places with closed winters, would be very tough to make happen as a public resort - you'd have to build in winter/non-golf activities as apparently Prairie Club is.

But aren't there year-round golf sites where this could be done?  New Mexico... Arizona... other parts of Colorado... hell I don't know.  I just selfishly want the Bandon of a few years ago all over again.

 

[Jim Adkisson]

Oregon's weather isn't all that great, btw.  They surely didn't build there counting on much golf in the winter.  

 I just selfishly want the Bandon of a few years ago all over again.

Huck...I go to "the Bandon of a few years ago" each November and late February...the prices are very reasonable and I typically play 36 a day in short sleeves and shorts.  Only once in my dozen or so trips have I encountered a day of driving rain that sent me inside for the afternoon...This is the banana belt of Oregon and the weather is typically 55-70 degrees in the winter.

But keep thinking that it always rains in Oregon from September to June...that way they don't raise the winter rates towards their summer fees!

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - others have extoled the virtues of Bandon in winter; that is very cool.  Given the high prices I have to pay in terms of marital capital for trips like this, I have yet to roll the dice and go in winter... what tends to keep me from doing it also isn't the weather so much as the lack of daylight.  Man when I go to Bandon I like to play A LOT of golf.

It is cool they have kept the winter prices low in any case.  If I do go back, I likely will go off-season.

TH

[Jim Adkisson]

Huck, it is the only drawback that you have to a very first tee time in order to make the turn and play 36 when there is only 10 hours of daylight in the day (and the ground crew uses the first one before they let you out), but my marital strife would come if my wife found me shelling out the big bucks to play high season...

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - understood - sage counsel for sure.

 

[Tim Pitner]

Huck...I go to "the Bandon of a few years ago" each November and late February...the prices are very reasonable and I typically play 36 a day in short sleeves and shorts.  Only once in my dozen or so trips have I encountered a day of driving rain that sent me inside for the afternoon...This is the banana belt of Oregon and the weather is typically 55-70 degrees in the winter.

But keep thinking that it always rains in Oregon from September to June...that way they don't raise the winter rates towards their summer fees!

Jim,

Climate data (yes, I look at this stuff) indicates that from 1971 to 2000, Bandon averaged 7 inches of rain in February and 9 inches in November.  Now, I'm not doubting your experiences but it has to rain sometime out there during these months.  That's more rain than we see in a year here in Denver.  What's the explanation?  Have you been lucky?  Does the rain fall in buckets and then completely stop?  Where's the lie in the statistics?

[Jim Adkisson]

Tim, I'd be interested in seeing the weather data...do you have a URL for those numbers?...Maybe I'm just lucky (so plan your next winter Bandon trip with me!   )...my experience is that when it comes down, it comes down hard...many times I've played in short sleeves with the rain shell close at hand for scattered showers...but they usually whip through so quickly that you get wet and then blown dry over the next hole or two...but I've also played in bright gorgeous sun from surnrise to sunset in what folks would consider the dead of winter elsewhere in the US.