Chicago Aerial Hinsdale Golf Club: Is It Donald Ross? Back nine added.

[Dan Moore]

From August 24, 1939

Confidential Guide noted the changes to the bunkering over the years.



And from GoogleEarth today

[T_MacWood]

An interesting style, most of the greens are open in front. The tiny string of pearls in front of the dogleg hole near the pond is unusual. The pond looks like it is a little grainy, maybe its full of lilly ponds. I can't place the style, my guess it is one of the under publicized Chicago architects: O'Neil, Croke, Roseman, Collis, Watson, Macomber, Wagstaff, Dearie, F. Macdonald, etc

[Dan Moore]

The course just reopened June 1st after an extensive restoration.  My host did not know which architect  handled the work.  The google image is pre-restoration.  The original architect wasn't one of the lesser known Chicago archies.  

The confidential guide noted the original bunkering had been bowdlerized.  All of the bunkers were redone.  The "string of pearls" Tom refers to were restored, but farther away from the green.  This feature has been somewhat contgroversial with the women and high handicappers.  For us the placement required a 3 wood lay-up.  



Many of the greens were reshaped with one of the main features being the open fronts Tom refers to.  Here is a false front on a restored green.



And a typical opening to the front of a green.

[T_MacWood]

Donald Ross?

[Sean_Tully]

dan
Do you know if the course is still in the same location as the original HJ Tweedie nine holer? From the info that I have it went to 18 holes in 1902.  There might be a precursor to the string 'o pearls on the course and some very definate cop bunkers. The original is definately in the "dark ages" as the original layout shows. With some more book opening the course is listed as a new course (by the yet unamed archie) so I am guessing that they had moved from the old course to this one in and around 1913. Or as the original layout shows they could have started over on the same property as it was a simple layout by  1913 standards even.

Will have to look a little deeper into the architect in question as with my  knowledge of him is weak as I am on the West Coast where he has only one course.

Keep the aerials coming as this one is very eye opening. The club is to be commended for doing the restoration as they can be very touch and go. Love the pictures from the ground that you have added and would love to see more! I was just back to Chicago last week and would have loved to have known about this when I was there, definately worth the visit. Oh and check your email.

Tully

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

You're killing me here! It obvious none of us know off hand, so I think its time to spill the beans.....and then post the next Chicago aerial.....

[JR Potts]

I have absolutely no idea.

[Sean_Tully]

Jeff-

I see that Tom guessed right!

Surprised that more people did not bite on this one. Is this course under the radar?





Hinsdale Golf Club
Donald Ross 1913

From what I have read it had some work done to it in the 1970's and more recently before the recent restoration. I love the look of the course from the photos. Possible that there was other work done that is not documented.

WHo did the restoration?

Tully

[Dan Moore]

Tully and Tom have it right.  Donald Ross.  I have a slew of photos.  I'll post some tommorow night as I have to get up at 5:00 for an early round on one of Jeff's former employer's courses.  

I'm curious to find out who did the work as it seemed to look like it was always there.  

I have two new aerials to post later in the week in honor of the Western Open.  

[T_MacWood]

I believe Hinsdale was originaly designed by James Foulis (perhaps w/Tweedie) and then completely remodeled by his brother David Foulis in the 20's - he was the pro/greenkeeper there for many years. David probably deserves the bulk of the credit. I'm not sure what Ross did there...he never listed the course in his pamphlet.

[Dan Moore]

Tom,

Hopefully some of the Ross experts will weigh in.  The Club feels they have a Ross course and the Donald Ross Society credits Ross with remodeling 9 and adding 9 in 1913.  

Excerpts from the club's website:

The History of Hinsdale Golf Club

In late 1893 or early 1894 more than twenty Hinsdale men, impressed with the newly introduced game of golf, laid out a rudimentary six-hole golf course in a Hinsdale pasture.  In late September of 1898, the Hinsdale golfers applied for a charter of incorporation from the State of Illinois.  The group, then numbering almost forty, received its charter from the State on October 15, 1898.  The Hinsdale Golf Club was officially born.  

In 1899, the Club moved from the original course to an eighty acre tract of rolling pasture land.  On this parcel of land, the Club built a nine-hole golf course as well as a clubhouse near the southwest corner.  The long, narrow golf course was designed by Herbert J. Tweedie.  In the style typical of the day, the course featured geometric rather than natural-looking hazards.  The 1899 Golf Guide praised the course, “The ground is rolling and well adapted for golf.  The turf is particularly good, as the links cover a fine acreage of old grazing ground.  The views are most picturesque from the various tees.”

Within about two years of building the course, the Club expanded to a full eighteen holes.  The larger course followed a designed similar to the original nine holes.  The Western Open Championship of the Western Golf Association was played on this course in 1907.

By 1909 the Club’s landlord decided to subdivide and sell his property for development and terminate his year-to-year lease with the Club.  After extensive negotiations, the Club signed a long term lease on a parcel of land immediately to the west of the old club (this is the Club’s present location).

The former pasture land of the golf course was enhanced with trees and a lake, as well as the greens and fairways were refined to an excellent state.  During the 1920’s Chicago Golfer magazine observed that, “the Hinsdale course rates as one of the best in the West, and nature certainly did its share in bringing about this result as the course calls for every variety of shot in the repertoire of golf.”

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

The the two concentric triangles to the right and three examples of almost tandem greens remind me of the routing at Memphis CC - an Ross course over an original layout by James Foulis on less than 110 acres.

Mike

[RJ_Daley]

Very tidy routing.  One has to wonder between the definition now provided by the blue grass-bent FWs, the tree growth, the modernization of the bunkers, the pond rebuilding and additions, and the softening provided with irrigation, just how heathland the course would have felt back in the day on a fall day in a after a dry summer.  I'll bet it was a real hoot.

[Sean_Tully]

Shivas-

If you look in the old Golfers Greenbook from 1900-02 it shows the original routings and some of the early history of the clubs. If you were to look at the routing for Hinsdale(Tweedie) you can see the course would have some issues as development made its way to the golf course and the roads became busier. An even better example would be the Skokie layout playing over several city blocks! As progress moved them from these sites they moved to the further edges of town and in some cases into other towns while still keeping the name of the club.

Some early chicago routings Hinsdale, Skokie, CGC, 1900-1902.

From the info that Dan added I will look for some more info on it later tonight as I seem to recall it caught my attention when I was going through some of the old magazines.

[Sean_Tully]

Ok did a quick search on Hinsdale Golf Club and came up with the following information from the American Golfer.

Mr. W. O. Thompson, one of the
leading golfing enthusiasts of Chicago,
has been elected president of the rapidly
growing Hinsdale Golf Club. Mr.
J. B. Vaughan was selected vice-president
and Messrs. C. E. Raymond and
J. H. Bell, directors. The office of
secretary-treasurer is vested in the
board of directors. Mr. J. Miller will
be team captain for the coming season.
Feb, 1910 AG

Another golf club is in prospect for
the Chicago district. Mr. George Ferris,
formerly with the Washington
Park and Westward Ho! Clubs, has
secured an option of a lease for
twenty-five years on sixty-seven acres
of the property recently vacated by the
Hinsdale Golf Club. It takes in the
original nine holes. Mr. Ferris plans
a membership of 100 golfers and a
meeting of the prospective members
will be held in the near future.
May 1910 AG


The Golf and Country Club of
Chicago has been organized temporarily
and will take its place in the
rapidly growing fold. The new club
has a lease on sixty acres of the property
recently occupied by the Hinsdale
Golf Club. It is the purpose of
the club to erect a concrete block clubhouse,
which will be of bungalow
form with wide porches. A garage
and other shelter will be constructed
and tennis and lawn bowls will be
fostered. Mr. George Ferris has been
appointed temporary secretary.
June 1910 AG


EXTENSIVE changes have been completed
on the course of the Hinsdale
Golf Club of Chicago.
Jan, 1916 AG

THE HINSDALE Golf Club, the home
organization of Mr. Robert A. Gardner,
has extended the lease on its
ground for 50 years, giving it 67
years more to run.
May 1917 AG


No mention of the club in the magazine for the time frame that Ross was supposed to have been there in 1913. Even more interesting was the mention of extensive changes made to the course in 1916. Some thing is definatly not right here. The American Golfer did a fairly good job on announcing new courses and changes to the courses, so I wonder what piece of the puzzle is missing?

In 1913 Ross was in the area consulting at Old Elm with H.S. Colt. An article states that he had recently left for th east so it is safe to say that he was not in the area for a month or two after that.

Another interesting fbit of information that I found while I was looking at Ross is another team effort with Colt at Glen View.

Numerous changes have been made
in the Glen View Club's course. In
the fall, H. S. Colt, of England, and
Donald Ross made a number of suggestions
to the committee, some of
which have been utilized. New traps
and bunkers have been added but none
of the holes have been materially
changed as to length or direction.
Few changes have been made in the
course since the introduction of the
rubber covered ball, as with its sixwater hazards it was considered difficult
enough. President Louis A. Ferguson
has taken personal charge of
the alterations and with open weather
prevailing in the latter part of last
year was able to accomplish quite a
lot.
March 1914 AG

[T_MacWood]

According to an excellent essay on the Foulis family in Golfiana - written by Herb Matter and James R Knerr - David Foulis became the professional/greenskeeper at Hinsdale in 1921, taking what was a mediocre golf course and rebuilding it into one of the best courses in Chicago. The historian Jim Healy said the same thing in his featured interview on the Foulis clan. Dave Foulis retired from Hinsdale in 1939 the same year as the photograph.

[T_MacWood]

In addition to Glen View Colt also made suggestions at Chicago GC.

[Sean_Tully]

In addition to Glen View Colt also made suggestions at Chicago GC.

What was the timeframe on the Colt CGC interaction? I found an interesting article that has one of the Foulis brothers going back east to look at some courses Shinny, Myopia to get some ideas for some work that he was going to do near the end of 1909-10 at CGC. Considering that with Raynor coming in ~1922-3 where does Colt show up?

[T_MacWood]

Sean
Colt was involved at Old Elm, Glen View, Chicago and Exmoor all on the same trip in 1913. As far as I know that was the only time he went to Chicago. As you probably know Ross was his construction man in Chicago. Colt also collaborated with HH Barker at Winnetka (Indian Hill) in 1913.

[Sean_Tully]

Thanks Tom.

Does anyone have the name of the people involved in the restoration work? Is there any good photos from ground level of the course or did they just use the aerials?

If there was changes to the course in 1916 then who did the work? Who was working in Chicago at the time?

What info led to the 1913 Ross ID at Hinsdale, there must be some connection?!?

I'm dieing here!

[Dan Moore]

Hopefully someone can come forward with more information on Ross' involvement at HGC.  In the meantime here are photos of the restoration.  Hopefully someone can help identify who handled the work as well.  The routing is unchanged from the aerials. Par 5s and 3s as noted rest are par 4s.



Front Nine par 35.  

#1  heads ssw from the clubhouse.  nice hole to start the round.
 




# 2 heads due north using the pond near the green. sorry for the weird image on the next few shots, the camera got set wrong by accident.





3# due north from #2 green



#4 par 3 due east. nice collection area short of green hidden by bunker.





#5 dogleg left featuring the "Eleanor's Teeth" bunkers at about 250 off the tee.







#5 green on right #13 on left and #6 across water.



#6 par across the pond.  collection areas long left and right.



#7 long fairly narrow par 5 with a nice green goes to ne.




#8 heads due south. another nice green.





#9 heads west where it bookends with #18 green.  excellent green with significant right to left and back to front contour.





viewed from left side of green



Back Nine Par 36.  The stretch from 12 to 16 is terrific.  

#10 heading east from clubhouse.





#11 Par 5 heads due north.  Nice series of three bunkers line right hand side near green with another collection area behind green.







#12 Toughest par 4 on course.  Another terrific green brought closer to water.  





#13 par across pond.  Nice apron leading to green from right.





#14 Remodeled hole.  Green brought down hill, bunkers added/restored on left hand side. Significant right to left slope in landing area.  Fun hole.  





#15 very narrow in landing area.  Back right plateau on green very cool pin location.  





#16  Great 213 yard par 3 traversing from ridge to ridge.  So called "Andy Gump" bunker on right.  





#17 Par 5.  Unremarkable from tee to green.  Triple tier green best most interesting on the course.





#18 Nice finisher.  

[T_MacWood]

I am very reluctant to say that just because Harry Colt visited a course or made suggestions, that he should somehow be credited with something at the course.  

I agree with you, that is why I said he was involved at those courses.

Colt did design Old Elm and Ross built it. Old Elm is the only course in Ross's portfolio in which he put in parenthesis 'construction'. It is well documented that Colt engaged Ross for his construction expertise on his Chicago tour.

Glen View, I've seen no evidence of anything he might have done there and he eventually stopped listing it. Chicago, the same thing, although I know the course did make some changes prior to the 1912 US Am (Chick Evans took credit) and so it is possible they might have listened to Colt (who was respected by both Macdonald and Evans), but whatever the case Raynor redesigned the course in 1923.

Last I checked Indian Hill was accurately listing Colt and Barker as their architects, but not Ross...however you are right Ross did redsign the course subsequently. I'm not sure what the story is at Exmoor. I suspect Colt was engaged (w/Ross) and they followed through on his suggestions or Colt was engaged (w/Ross) and they ended up hiring Ross later on or Colt did work at Exmoor and Ross remodeled it sometime later. Ross listed Exmoor as course he remodeled.

Colt listed all those courses within his portfolio of the early 20's...some of them dropped out by the mid- to late- 20s. There are magazine and newspaper reports of his visits as well.

[Sean_Tully]

Dan

Hinsdale does have a club history book that will hopefully answer all of our questions if someone could get there hands on a copy. I found another mention of some construction to take place in the near future from 1914.


A side note, I did a search of the University of Chicago's Special Collection and came across some interesting info. In the collection of Amos Alonzo Stagg's papers is some golf related photos and scrapbooks from the turn of the century. In addition there are some photos of olympia Fields(only one mentioned by name, no date given) that might prove interesting to the right people. What was really neat was that the collection has all of his paperwork when he was the football coach in the late 1890's. It includes the playbooks and information on the team and there rivals. It would be pretty interesting to see some of the plays from back then. It also appears that football was pretty violent as he had a series of folders for the given years on football related fatalities. Ouch!

Tully

[Dan Moore]

I added the back nine photos to my earlier post.  

[Sean_Tully]

Dan
Thanks for the pictures, some fun around those greens for sure. I like the squared off entrance to the green, it plays right into my ground game!  Some of the greens have alot of movement around them as well as some of the bunkering. Was there photographic evidence to that or was that still there before the restoration?

I also love the chipping areas around the greens. One can get in trouble playing the wrong shot or not playing it correctly.

Tully