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Jordan Wall

Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« on: June 26, 2006, 10:27:04 PM »
I will hopefully be playing my first Fazio course in a few weeks.  I am excited.

I was wondering what to expect from a Fazio course.  How are his greens?  Big or small, or varied in size?  Is there really all that much containment mounding on his courses?  What is the one thing that sticks out most about Fazio courses?  And, how much different are his courses/designs compared to other architects of today such as C&C or Doak??

I know most people are not huge Fazio fans but if the guys has 17 courses in the top 100 he must be doing something right..

John Kavanaugh

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2006, 10:33:57 PM »


I know most people are not huge Fazio fans but if the guys has 17 courses in the top 100 he must be doing something right..

When you get done playing I suspect you may think it is the raters that are doing something wrong...

Jordan Wall

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2006, 10:35:11 PM »


I know most people are not huge Fazio fans but if the guys has 17 courses in the top 100 he must be doing something right..

When you get done playing I suspect you may think it is the raters that are doing something wrong...

Arent you a member at a Fazio course?

You dont like?  Explain please...

John Kavanaugh

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2006, 10:45:37 PM »
Jordon,

Mark my words...When you get done playing this west coast Fazio you are going to play you will question a system that has 14 Fazio's and 2 Doak's in their top 100.  Of course maybe the 4 Engh's will restore your faith...or maybe not.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2006, 10:55:39 PM »
I'll be surprised if you don't enjoy playing your first Fazio.

By the time you've played enough to see the same hole at Alaqua Lakes, PGA Reserve, and Bonita Bay you'll begin to see how little thought can go into their work.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2006, 11:10:20 PM »
Jordon,

There you go from the horses mouth...Fazio doesn't put as much thought in his courses as Doak and C&C.  Can you imagine if he did...He would actually have those 200 top 20 courses he talks about..

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2006, 12:01:12 AM »
Jordan,
Your getting some good advice from two guys that have seen their share of Fazio courses. I tend to agree exactly what John Conley is saying, Youll see the same stuff again and again in subsequent trips to other Fazio "gems."  However, I'll be surprised, especially since your playing with a certain--hurrumph hurrumph!--member that participates here, that you would be able to give a unbridle, un-biased opinion.

Just remember this when your doing your gushing.

But then when you do get to revisit the course in return visits and as John says, see the amount of repetition that is going on--it's bound to happen when you build that many courses and move the much earth--well, you'll get the point.

I'm sure Aldarra will tickle your fancy, but lets get something straight. As your knowledge further grows, you'll see for yourself that the critiques of Fazio are in fact valid.

I suggest developing your own opinion.

--Look at the bunkering. I've never even seen an image of the Aldarra, but I can say in all due honesty, if the bunkering is anything like any other Fazio course, your probably going to love it. Look at the placement: Is it strategically and thoughtfully placed, not just for you but golfer's better and worse then you?  
--Check out the subtle containment, and how Fazio ties it into his fairways, making it this grand rolling scale of humps and hollows, which if you go further into the woods, you'll see really doesn't tie into the existing elements, but instead hides them. You'll also see massive movement created for drainage on a scale that most architects don't dare to venture simply because they choose to give their clients a more affordable "product," not one that is three times the cost.
--Are the trees and other landscaping items natural to the area? Or were they imported in, thus creating a new environment or fauna that is new to the area. Do notice how all of the landscaping is in fact maintained, and usually on a grand scale. (Of all the Up-with-Fazio people I  have talked to out there, when they in fact join Fazio clubs and then see just how much it costs to maintain them, well lets just say they suddenly get the picture)(John K. would probably be an exception here, but I'm sure he just loves the flowers at VicNat.) :)
--Look at the attention to detail in hiding cart paths. I have to give it to them here. No one hides paths better then Fazio, with Doak maybe a close second, but when your building Hole #A5 with Green #B3 and Creek #C4, well you can see how they have accomplished this by a successful formula, albeit a repiticious one.
--Also, look for creative green shapes. this would mean that most of the greens out there will undoubtedly--and again, i say this without even seeing nary an image or discription of the place--other then boisterous claims of your host (a good guy)--will feature tough pin placements in the front and back of each green, at about a 30 degree angle to the back pin, with a bunker or two carry, or to a somewhat tough placement in front. (False fronts included) I will hazard a guess and say you'll probably see this about 10-12 times during the round, if not more.

Enjoy the round, and kick your host's petard. He deserves it for influencing the minds of America's Youth! ;)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2006, 02:14:03 AM »
Jordan,
Your getting some good advice from two guys that have seen their share of Fazio courses. I tend to agree exactly what John Conley is saying, Youll see the same stuff again and again in subsequent trips to other Fazio "gems."  However, I'll be surprised, especially since your playing with a certain--hurrumph hurrumph!--member that participates here, that you would be able to give a unbridle, un-biased opinion.

Just remember this when your doing your gushing.

But then when you do get to revisit the course in return visits and as John says, see the amount of repetition that is going on--it's bound to happen when you build that many courses and move the much earth--well, you'll get the point.

I'm sure Aldarra will tickle your fancy, but lets get something straight. As your knowledge further grows, you'll see for yourself that the critiques of Fazio are in fact valid.

I suggest developing your own opinion.

--Look at the bunkering. I've never even seen an image of the Aldarra, but I can say in all due honesty, if the bunkering is anything like any other Fazio course, your probably going to love it. Look at the placement: Is it strategically and thoughtfully placed, not just for you but golfer's better and worse then you?  
--Check out the subtle containment, and how Fazio ties it into his fairways, making it this grand rolling scale of humps and hollows, which if you go further into the woods, you'll see really doesn't tie into the existing elements, but instead hides them. You'll also see massive movement created for drainage on a scale that most architects don't dare to venture simply because they choose to give their clients a more affordable "product," not one that is three times the cost.
--Are the trees and other landscaping items natural to the area? Or were they imported in, thus creating a new environment or fauna that is new to the area. Do notice how all of the landscaping is in fact maintained, and usually on a grand scale. (Of all the Up-with-Fazio people I  have talked to out there, when they in fact join Fazio clubs and then see just how much it costs to maintain them, well lets just say they suddenly get the picture)(John K. would probably be an exception here, but I'm sure he just loves the flowers at VicNat.) :)
--Look at the attention to detail in hiding cart paths. I have to give it to them here. No one hides paths better then Fazio, with Doak maybe a close second, but when your building Hole #A5 with Green #B3 and Creek #C4, well you can see how they have accomplished this by a successful formula, albeit a repiticious one.
--Also, look for creative green shapes. this would mean that most of the greens out there will undoubtedly--and again, i say this without even seeing nary an image or discription of the place--other then boisterous claims of your host (a good guy)--will feature tough pin placements in the front and back of each green, at about a 30 degree angle to the back pin, with a bunker or two carry, or to a somewhat tough placement in front. (False fronts included) I will hazard a guess and say you'll probably see this about 10-12 times during the round, if not more.

Enjoy the round, and kick your host's petard. He deserves it for influencing the minds of America's Youth! ;)

You,harrumph, sir, are no gentleman ;)

The funny thing, is that Jordan will now be looking for things that may or may not be there, creating in his mind what he thinks he is supposed to see based on what he reads here. Remember too that he hasn't seen much out of the northwest, so he probably would think it is better than it really is. Of course, now you have ruined it for him. ;)

Jordan went into Sandpines with predisposed notions, so he had no chance to develop his own opinions. Same with Tumble Creek, although with a positive perspective.  He will now be going to Aldarra with predisposed notions as well, based off what he has read here, and what he should be looking for. He'll like it, because it is a good course, but he will have his reservations about it, based on what he reads here, not what he has seen or experienced.

Jordan, you can be honest with me things you don't like, as there are things I don't like as well.  I am comfortable about what the course is and isn't. Yep, there is some subtle containment, and there will be some pin positions as Tommy describes.  There are a couple of holes that are right off the typical Fazio blueprint, for sure. But you won't see any flowers or imported trees and you will see unkept native grasses surrounding the fairways.  Just have an open mind, and have fun with it and don't worry about the Fazioness of the place.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 03:02:28 AM by Sean Leary »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2006, 08:03:19 AM »

Jordan,

       Just ignore the ramblings above, have a good time and keep an open mind. I used to live 5 minutes from Alderra and watched them build the course. Never played it but from all accounts it is a solid course and will give you a good test of your game.  

Be thankful, for you are a lucky young man. You have your whole life ahead of you to get all jaded like the rest of us.  ;)

Jordan Wall

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 10:34:15 AM »
I am hoping that it's this Fazio course thats never been any 'Top 100 lists' that is the one Fazio course that is over looked.  Everybody--and I mean everybody--friends, family (some friends and some family) that has played Aldarra have absolutely loved it.  I do not doubt that I will either.  

But, some questions.

Are Fazio's green contours as big and undulating as Doak's or say, C&C's?  
How rolling are his fairways, and how much do they tumble along and follow the land?
And, how many of you guys have played a Fazio just to enjoy the course?  I always like to think, if a course is not fun then how can it be good?  I have no doubt that I will love Aldarra even if the design is not perfect.  Heck, I get to play with an awesome gca'er (who btw doesnt even mind all my questions about the best courses in the world for 4 hours straight (even though I made up for it with my green reading ;D)) and my dad and some other guy who is probably cool but I do not quite know yet.  How much better can it get?
 :)

Tom Huckaby

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2006, 10:45:07 AM »
Jordan - since there is still time for you to be saved, how about this:  consider each golf course as an individual thing; not caring one way or the other who the architect is.

That is, what does it matter what Fazio does or Doak or anyone?

Play the course, enjoy the course, assess the course if you must.

But keep the architect out of it.

TH


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2006, 10:47:43 AM »
Harrumph, Harrumph,
My attempt at emulating a John Kavanuah-style post this early morning:

Jordan, enjoy the course, I know I will as soon as I venture up to Seattle for a cup of day old coffee. Speaking of which: Are Fazio courses similar to Starbucks, in the way they are designed and maintained?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy an occasional Vente Iced Latte' w/ non-fat milk and the usual 3 shots each of sugar free vanilla and sugar free hazelnut. But I also know that this really isn't drinking coffee. It's a designer-drink concocted so I get the idea of what a chocolate milkshake used to taste like.

You gotta love Starbucks, they've managed to pull the wool over everyone's eyes that visits there!


(Starbucks and Fazio, they are synonomous!)

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2006, 10:52:25 AM »
I am hoping that it's this Fazio course thats never been any 'Top 100 lists' that is the one Fazio course that is over looked.  Everybody--and I mean everybody--friends, family (some friends and some family) that has played Aldarra have absolutely loved it.  I do not doubt that I will either.  

But, some questions.

Are Fazio's green contours as big and undulating as Doak's or say, C&C's?  
How rolling are his fairways, and how much do they tumble along and follow the land?
And, how many of you guys have played a Fazio just to enjoy the course?  I always like to think, if a course is not fun then how can it be good?  I have no doubt that I will love Aldarra even if the design is not perfect.  Heck, I get to play with an awesome gca'er (who btw doesnt even mind all my questions about the best courses in the world for 4 hours straight (even though I made up for it with my green reading ;D)) and my dad and some other guy who is probably cool but I do not quite know yet.  How much better can it get?
 :)

1.  Aldarra isn't overlooked, nor does it have to be for you to like it a lot.
2.  Everybody liked it and you'll probably not find many of those people that have seen 20 or more Fazio designs.  Like I said earlier, the formulaic approach won't bother you at all.  Hey, if you've never seen Ferris Bueller's Day Off you might think Adventures in Babysitting is the greatest comedy ever.  EXACT SAME MOVIE.  Same holds here
3.  No.  Greens aren't like Doak's or Crenshaw/Coore's.  The undulations they have are tame and non-offensive even if pronounced - as if to "section" the green.
4.  Depends.  The fairways at Camp Creek are incredibly bumpy as he created faux dunes.  In other places the fairways resemble graded highways.
5.  People enjoy Fazio designs, which explains why his firm has lately enjoyed a ton of work.  (If you are in High School "lately" encompasses your lifetime.)

Play Aldarra.  Enjoy it.  Reserve final judgment for later when you've seen lots and lots of the boiler plate stuff like he's done at so many cookie-cutter 36-hole developments in Florida like Bonita Bay (Sabal and Cypress), PGA Reserve (N and S), etc....

What really gets people's juices flowing are the exceptional courses that his firm has done on some unique sites.  Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks at World Woods, the Quarry at Black Diamond Ranch, Victoria National, and a few others come to mind.  Sometimes the sites are so severe - like at Spring Hill and Hudson National - that the courses also deviated significantly from his standard fare like you might find in the second course at Black Diamond Ranch or Legacy Club at Alaqua Lakes.

Aldarra really stands out in the Northwest.  There might be a few dozen clubs of its ilk in Palm Beach County, Naples, Scottsdale, or Palm Springs.  People that play it SHOULD love it as it provides a big break from places like Broadmoor or Sahalee.

I'm sure you'll have fun.
 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2006, 11:33:18 AM »

I know most people are not huge Fazio fans but if the guys has 17 courses in the top 100 he must be doing something right..

Jordan,
Why do you say most people are not huge Fazio fans.  I think the market speaks differently.  Maybe 1500 or so differ but that is miniscule.  Sorta like going to a Honda website and asking about toyotas.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2006, 11:36:18 AM »
Some interesting comments above, and thye one thing I'll say about the Fazio's I've played to date...although they have been "fun" to play (and that is a good thing), I truly cannot say that many of the individuals holes are remembered in my mind.

To me, good architecture really makes you THINK about what you are doing, and for some reason or another stick out in your mind when you replay rounds or shots in your head...Fazio just does not do that for me, except in a select few cases like World Woods Pine Barrens or John's Island West.  The rest seem to be just a blur...

Take that for what it's worth...
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2006, 11:51:55 AM »
Odd little tidbit about Carlton Woods (Fazio).

I had a chance to ride around during construction with a member of the development group  :-\. While there are the traditional Fazio "trappings", I was interested to hear my host say (on 4-5 occasions) "Construction on this hole is finished even though it may not appear that way"....."but the next hole, you can see the ridge that is being created at the landing area".

The course struck me as a bit schizo, and I could not help but feel this gentlemen was perturbed by the fact that more dirt wasn't being pushed around.

Maybe Fazio has been lurking around GCA the last few years?? ;)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2006, 12:09:01 PM »
The world according to John Conley?-

"By the time you've played enough to see the same hole at Alaqua Lakes, PGA Reserve, and Bonita Bay you'll begin to see how little thought can go into their work."

That comment is totally unfair.  Most everyone who has been involved with a Fazio project will tell you the opposite.  The planning and due diligence that goes into their work is extensive by any industry standard.

That the organization comes up with courses which have similar characteristics is not a function of a lack of thought, creativity or effort.  It could very well be that people who hire Fazio expect certain things, and given their track record, who could blame them.

To most members, that their course has a common theme with others by the same architect is not nearly as important as the quality of their course.  I don't suppose most of us would mind belonging to courses with similar design characteristics as Shinny, Cypress Point, Sand Hills, or Pacific Dunes.

I've only played three Doak courses to date, but why have we not heard complaints about the similarity of his designs?  Maybe it is just a coincidence that the three I've played rely heavily on highly contoured green complexes.

BTW, Fazio has three courses in the Dallas area and all are substantially different from each other.  And yes, they are all doing well in a difficult market.  Two of them, Dallas National and Vaquero place very high in the top 10 Texas courses (but what do raters know anyways).

Jordan, enjoy your round and don't let these "agenda-driven" mongers ruin it for you. ;)  The course may not be your cup of tea, but let it be because it doesn't meet your criteria as opposed to that of others.  Yes, Fazio has done some renovation work on classical courses which does not meet the standards of a few posters here.  That shouldn't have anything to do with how you view the course you are about to play.        

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2006, 12:24:53 PM »
Play it and make your own decisions.

You probably don't need to share your thoughts, because no matter what you say, you aren't going to sway anyone on this site one teeeeeny tiiiiiiiny little bit.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2006, 12:26:39 PM »
Jordan:

Fazio's courses run the gammit from cookie cutter stuff to really excellent stuff. Alot depends on the project, what the assignment was, the budget and of course, the terrain.

To universally pan his work is too ignore a large body of work with some seriously good stuff in it, for example, I think Galloway is excellent while others don't, Sage Valley as well.

Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2006, 12:46:34 PM »
If anyone would like to join Jordan, his Dad and me to further verify that he actually exists and take 2 hours of the questions I am going to get off the 4 hours that there will be, let me know :)

Probably the 8th or 9th of July......

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited New
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2006, 12:52:08 PM »
Harrumph, Harrumph,
My attempt at emulating a John Kavanuah-style post this early morning:

Jordan, enjoy the course, I know I will as soon as I venture up to Seattle for a cup of day old coffee. Speaking of which: Are Fazio courses similar to Starbucks, in the way they are designed and maintained?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy an occasional Vente Iced Latte' w/ non-fat milk and the usual 3 shots each of sugar free vanilla and sugar free hazelnut. But I also know that this really isn't drinking coffee. It's a designer-drink concocted so I get the idea of what a chocolate milkshake used to taste like.

You gotta love Starbucks, they've managed to pull the wool over everyone's eyes that visits there!


(Starbucks and Fazio, they are synonomous!)

Tommy, that is perfect. I couldn't agree more ;D

To add to that, sometimes you just want to go where the pretty baristas are, no matter what the coffee tastes like..


« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 08:32:48 PM by Sean Leary »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2006, 12:57:31 PM »
I don't have alot to add except when you look at the Fazio approch you'll see the same thing.

First, Fazio makes alot of money, probably a few million, depending on the project.

The construction costs are many more millions.  As a result, the course you play is going to be a study in landscape architecture.   The fairways are probably going to be fairly wide, and in perfect condition.   (Fazio courses are expensive to maintain.)

I hope you'll post your thoughts when you return.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2006, 01:02:14 PM »
Sean, well... I never have really gotten this whole
 architect worship and/or demonize thing.  I tend
to just play golf courses, and when required,
assess golf courses.  Who did it should matter
as much as who made a great bottle of wine...
That's why they do blind tasting there, no?  
I know it's impossible for the most part to
do "blind assessments" of golf courses, but
wouldn't you agree we should TRY to do so
as much as we can?

TH
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 01:02:51 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2006, 03:43:45 PM »
If anyone would like to join Jordan, his Dad and me to further verify that he actually exists and take 2 hours of the questions I am going to get off the 4 hours that there will be, let me know :)

Probably the 8th or 9th of July......
Ask Gary Daughters. Jill may be available if it is truly Jordan Wall of GCA that you are playing with.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Huckaby

Re:Oh no......Wait, I am actually excited
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2006, 03:52:26 PM »
Sean, that was classic - and no, I didn't intepret your comment as anything but agreeing - I just felt like explaining a bit more.   ;D  As for greatness from Californians, well for me football = Arsenal, so you may want to revisit that.

 ;D ;D