Bethpage.... Still a Tillinghast course?

[Noel Freeman]

Tom, I have the original plans and there are no fairway bunkers to be had or seen.. Tillie built Alpine in 1928, finished in 1931..Very easy for him to visit, 10 minutes from his house!

[Glenn Spencer]

I don't want to interrupt this quality thread that I am enjoying, but I was wondering. Is it universally agreed for the most part that 4 and 5 are the best back-to-back holes anywhere on the planet? I think they have the 'most' Tillie (whatever that is) in them and would be worth the trip alone.

Is anything universally agreed upon?  

Any of the following could be easily argued as equal to or superior to those holes at BB:

15-16, 14-15, 8-9, 12-13 or 16-17 Cypress Point

6-7, 7-8, 8-9, 9-10 Pebble Beach

1-2, 2-3, 3-4, or basically any combination of two at NGLA..

1-2, 13-14, 16-17 Sand Hills

6-7, 3-4, or any of a number of other combinations at Pacific Dunes.

Need I go on?

 

It is safe to say that I regret typing universally agreed upon. That George Peper? book about the 500 best holes in the world, has them both listed and  the courses that have two are not that many and the ones that have back to back are extremely, extremely scarce. Cypress if that even is the only one that I remember.

Those holes you mention, I would like to see them beat BB, they may be equal or something intthe eye of the beholder, but there is nothing better than 4 and 5. Unless 15 and 16 at the Black, with 15 carrying 16. ;

[T_MacWood]

Noel
What is the date on the plan? Was the delay a result of the Depression?

Geoffrey
What year did Tilly completely redesign Emmet's Rockaway HC?

Phil
What other Tilly designs was Worden involved with?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom

The club was originally founded in 1878, but the course was expanded and redesigned in 1919 by Devereaux Emmet. Since that time, the course has been almost completely remodeled by A. W. Tillinghast in 1933.  Perry Maxwell did some work in 1946, then Press Maxwell in 1955, and was further remodeled by Brian Silva in 1985. Silva's work has been mostly removed I believe but Stephen Kay has done some remarkably BAD work most recently.

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey
Thats too bad. Do you find it odd that they would completely redsign their golf course in the heart of the Depression?

"I think you over simplify Tillinghast as an architect by trying to put his courses within two styles."

Perhaps you are right, but I don't think so. Certainly there were variations due to location and different construction crews, but if you look at his plans during those periods they look suprisingly similar...a repeating of some of his favorite concepts and especially the similarity in the bunkering he proposes.

From what I've seen his most unique, unusual or aetypical designs were Brook Hollow and Bethpage...interesting both were inspired by Pine Valley.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom

I have no way of knowing if it is odd or not that they redesigned the course during the depression.  The fact is that they did so.

Two clubs within 3-wood distance of one another, Winged Foot and Quaker Ridge are both stern tests of golf but their styles and routing are quite unique.  Quaker Ridge has a set of greens that are extensions of the fairways with back to front tilt and little in the way of internal ridges and humps. Winged Foot's green complexes are severely built up and have tons of internal contours, humps and ridges. Quaker was built way before Winged Foot and yet Somerset Hills which was built befere ether club I believe has the "complex" internal greens contouring but without being built up as are Winged Foot's greens.  Fenway is closest to WInged Foot in that regard. I'm just using my eyes and a rough time line to make these conclusions but they seem obvious to me anyway. I could be wrong but your argument so far does not have me convinced.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Starting tomorrow, SFGC might be a good spot to see a full Tillinghast example.

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey
Based on what I've seen and read internal green contours were a constant with his designs. What differentiates the early style from the later is the bunkering style (angular vs more free form), the use distinctive mounding (likely the influence of Lees), the overall more angular aesthetic and the less integrated platform-like greens and fairway grade greens vs more modern well integrated greens.

QR is amalgamation of JD Dunn, Tilly-Low-Lees, Hochester-Winton, RTJ and Rees. In its present form if you were to send someone out to study Tillinghast's work that would not be the one.

I know next to nothing about the history of Rockaway HC but I do find it odd that they would completely tear up their existing golf course in the midst of the Depression and build a new one.

[Noel Freeman]

Tom Mac-

Being in the financial markets and given the history I've studied the Depression really took hold in 1931-1933.. The market crashed in Oct 1929 but it really was the Smoot Hawley Tariff in late 1930 and the ensuing downtick in global GDP growth in 31-33 that triggered it.  Alpine/Aldecress was safely built by then.  The reason I believe it took so long was drought and dust like construction conditions during the time.  I think if you came to Alpine you'd see why we have no fairway bunkers (since added as aiming bunkers on #2, one bunker on the right of 599 yard par 5 7th- a hole incidently that would have been perfect for a hells half acre) and cross bunkers dividing the dual fairway 14th).. All of the bunkers were added since the early 90s by Silva/Mungeam who are not consulting anymore.  I recently went to the Met Golfers Dinner and sat with Messers. Forse and Nagle, now our consulting architects and the current greens chair wants to add more.  I don't believe Ron nor Jim want to see them added and have expressed their concerns but being part of the greens committees and the wreckage they can wield, I know understand how places get altered even with well meaning architects at the helm.  A few here like Geoff, Matt Ward, Mike Cirba and a few others can comment that Alpine's terrain needs no additional hazards.  Truly, it is unique amongst Tillie courses for the land it was built.

BTW, 40 millionaires started Aldecress/Alpine and built it upon a cigar baron--Miguel Rionda's land--now mainly housing, my parents live in one of the developments near the course built in the 80s.. All of the millionaires went bust during the depression and the course seemed to have gone fallow and suffered until bought in the 40s by Donald Flamm a radio magnate in Paterson NJ..  He and the pro at the time did one major ill advised change in the early 50s b/c of the swimming pool build which was to change Tillie's beloved 2nd hole at Alpine.  Tis my biggest regret that even with Alpine's new clubhouse built, I was unable to get the hole restored..

BTW, does Alpine's new clubhouse look familiar?? (hello WF?).. I don't want to tell you about the cost overruns and resulting assessments coming!



This is the old 2nd Hole Tillie laid out..



and this is why it was changed.. how stupid!



Here is the current 2nd and you can see where the old clubhouse was.. the old green as per Tillie was on the other side of the pond where the construction is..  One now has to carry the pond with the approach whereas on the old hole the pond jutted out and you could play a land approach around it if you were out of position.  But on the old hole you had to go over the water to attack the flag.. The current hole is the 3rd iteration, Mark Mungeam moved the 2nd iteration done by the pro in the 50s closer to the water to a new green and added the bunker on the right.  You can also see the added fairway bunkers.





I should add the restored 3rd hole (about 90% integrity to the original, it had been changed in the 50s as well (shortened by 70 yards) can be seen to the left. It goes up the hill and probably rises 50 feet tee to green but it is tough to see.. It is the first of the elevator holes at Alpine, the next 3 holes rise to the near top of the granite hill before plunging down hill on #7 and #9.. #2 green is the low point of the course.

By #3 on the left one can see land Alpine sold off for new 6000 sq foot condos that intrude too close to the club (long story) in order to pay for the new clubhouse.. Unfortunately the deal fell millions short of paying for the new structure..

[Mike_Golden]

Yannick,

I probably played BPB 300 times pre Rees and 4 times post Rees so feel like I have some credibility here...

The Black, post Rees, is virtually the same golf course it was in the 70's and 80's.  A few minor changes, pinched bunkers around a couple of greens, but nothing that stands out as ruining Tillie's signature on the golf course.

I've played only a few Tillie courses (the Black, the Red, the Blue and SFGC plus several other courses where he consulted-his style was obvious on those courses as well).

The Black stands out in my mind as the best of his work I've played-SFGC and the Red are also great courses as well.  Just go play it and you'll see for yourself.

[T_MacWood]

Noel
You're right. It looks like they stole the portico right off the Winged Foot clubhouse.

Regarding the Depression, here in Columbus the OSU GC project was immediately put on hold following the Crash. Tilly was effected too, perhaps his biggest project/commission--a five course complex to be located on the Canadian-American border--was nixed right after 10/1929. I think there were some Flynn courses in Florida that were effected as well. My impression is the Crash was finacially devastating almost immediately in the US.

From what I gather the courses that were started before the Crash seem to be the few courses that got built--like Alpine, Shinnecock, Stanford, U of M, but some of these took longer to build than projects pre-Crash. That is why I was wondering why it took three years to build Alpine.

Can you post the old plan of Aldecress?

[Noel Freeman]

Tom-

The original plans are huge..they had water damage from sitting in the super's office for many years throughout the decades.. It is hanging in our golfhouse-- Alpine has a mini second clubhouse.. The new main clubhouse is at the bottom of the hill while the golf house which has small locker rooms, the pro shop and restaurant are at the top of the hill where #9 and #18 finish.. Can you imagine having to pay for 2 clubhouses?-- I do!

Anyway, the plans have never been scanned which makes it difficult to post.. I have not had success with a digital camera.  From my research I only have the comments about the poor weather on why it took so long but I forgot to add, there was a ton of rock to dynamite--more than Yale perhaps!  So it took a while..

Might I add there are 2 very good articles and pictures of Aldecress/Alpine that can be found in Golf Illustrated of Oct 1933 and April 1934.. On page 42 of the April 1934 issue, Tillie is standing on the 2nd green!

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, you asked why Alpine took three years to build. Even though it was at the height of the depression it was not a matter of money, but rather of site and weather conditions.

As Noel could tell you, it is built nearby the Palisades and the amount of granite that had to be blasted and moved was monumental. They had upward of 30+ trucks in continous use hauling the granite away. In addition there was dense forest and some small swampland to deal with.

In order to ensure a proper work force they actually built a large work camp, with a field office and even a commissary prior to the actual work beginning on the course.

And then the rain began. In the first year it rained voluminously and throughout the year, including times that should have been dry.

The second year had the opposite problem as the drought that plagued the mid-west and turned it into a dust bowl was now being felt here in the east. The tractors and vehicles were covered with such a thick layer of dust that Harold Worden observed, "They looked like ghosts."

By the way, with the granite, even with all of the rock being carted daily from the property, a great deal of it was piled up or crushed on site and laid out as a base for the fairways. Thousands of cubic yards of cinders, manure and peat moss were worked into the soil that covered these over. Today there is no sign of it being an artificial construction; in fact, the course gives the impression of having been carved out of the soil.  

Actually, despite going well over budget because of the granite problems (mostly unforseen), cost was never an issue.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom

Much as I dislike the work Rees did at Quaker RIdge (unlike Bethpage) he did not alter the greens.  Goodness man - get out in the field and use your eyes. The green sites at QR and WF are so obviously different. QR greens extend from the fairways without the built up character of those at WF or Fenway. The internal contouring is obvious and Rees did nothing to change it. They therefore play differently as well. The steep pitch of the first green I believe was softened first by Fazio's group and then redone by Hanse.

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey
Can you identify which greens are Dunn's which are Tilly's and which are Hochster's?

Noel
Is there a date on the plan?

Phillip
Was Tilly's son-in-law (Worden) involved in any other projects?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey
Can you identify which greens are Dunn's which are Tilly's and which are Hochster's?

Tom

Can you define Tilly's mission at QR and what he was told the club wanted?

Fact is that he signed off if you will on the final product and the design credit is given to him.  Had he not approved of any of the greens especially given that they are extensions of the fairway rather then severely raised then he should have/ would have changed them. There is a definate overall theme to the greens at QR rather then a disjointed mixture of styles.  That would not happen if as you suggest some of them were Dunn, Hochster or anyone else. Do we have to take into account who was topdressing the greens over the years as well?  

Get out and see for yourself instead of sitting in your den reading old articles from writers who also might not be 100% accurate.

[Dan Joseph]

I believe Tilly lived in Toledo, OH. for a while.  Did he design any courses in Ohio?  If so what's the opinion on them.

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey
I have gone out and seen it for myself. Mission statement? We're talking about what is and isn't Tilly's work (for the purpose of identifying design characteristics)...not if he signed-off on greens he did not design. By the way he did not sign off on Hochster's green's or any of RTJ or Rees's changes, like the 13th green.

Do you think the 2nd, 3rd and 13th greens are like the 8th (even though it is fraction of its original size) or 9th greens?  This course could be special IMO...I think it biggest weakness is the hodge podge of different styles. Rees's work is especially bad. I hope the club gives Gil Hanse the approval to go back to 1926 (post-Hochster) which was the courses high point IMO.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom/Geoffrey,

Who was "Hochster", and what did he do at QR?  

I'm assuming you meant "pre-Hochster" in wanting the club to go back to 1926, Tom?  

Thanks for any insight.  It's certainly a unique course and I'd agree with both of you that the bunkering work Rees did there was horrid.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom

QR obviously made some changes when they put in Tennis courts.  Much of this is mapped in Daniel Wexler's book. That will never go back to the original (unlike SFGC).  However, the greens as a set are as different as can be from WF, Fenway, Somerset Hills, Alpine and other Tillie designs.

I too hope that Gil Hanse gets approval to work at QR as their bunkers need it.  Expansion of green pads is essential but that will not convert them into anything resembling those built up complexes next door at WF. Just my opinion and obviously I could be wrong.

[Phil_the_Author]

Dan, you wrote, "I believe Tilly lived in Toledo, OH. for a while.  Did he design any courses in Ohio?"

He did the 27 holes of the Lakewood CC in Westlake in 1925.  

The Tillinghast Association is having its meeting there in September, why don't you come join us?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Noel & Philip,

At Aldercress, AWT also created deep, wide trenches in the fairways and used them to bury boulders blasted/excavated from the site.

Tom MacWood,

A review of the greens at Balusrol lower, upper, Ridgewood East, West & Center, Quaker Ridge, Winged Foot West & East, Bethpage Black and Alpine reveals a diversity in AWT's green designs.

Baltusrol lower is similar to BPB, both differ from other AWT courses.

Why ?

Finances ?
Topography ?
Drainage ?
Scale ?
Crew ? ?  ?
Owner/Member preferences ?
His own Design variations/whims ?
A combination of the above ?

Irrespective of the reasons, which we'll probably never be privy to, the greens all seem to fit quite well into the overall scheme of the design, producing outstanding golf courses.

Micro analyzing what MIGHT have taken place 80 years ago, without the cold hard facts, can cause us to draw erroneous conclusions.

A perfect example is the 8th hole at Hidden Creek.

Only after Bill Coore explained in great detail how the features on that hole came into existance, does one come to understand the true pedigree of the hole.

Originally, the hole was not designed as built.

The plans do not reflect the field decisions by others, with C&C's consent and encouragement, that resulted in the final design and construction of that hole.

I don't think that creative process is an anomaly.

I think many "PLANS" are altered in the field or as a result of field reviews.

A quest for the absolute answer may never be completed.
But, I admire you for trying.

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey
The changes that are chronicled in that book were not due to club's tennis requirements, the changes were made because the course did not stand up to its neighbors Century, Fenway and Winged Foot. It was only 6000 yards long. After Hochster (and Winton the greenkeeper) made their changes the course was expanded to 6600-6700 yards.

The early QR was similar in style to Somerset Hills, which makes sense since they were both Tilly, Low and Lees collaborations. However the course that will hopefully be restored by Gil will be one that has a heavy Hochster influence.

Mike
William Rice Hochster was one of the founders of QR and he ran the club for many years (he was president of the club from 1916-1928 and chairman of the green committee until he died in 1933), in fact he had home adjacent to the course. He was more or less the dictator of QR.

He expanded the course in 1926 (which has been erroneously credited to Tilly) adding the current 3rd, 12th and 13th, and remodeling #2 and #4. He made a lot of little changes over the years, mostly changing (he favored a more irregular outline) and adding bunkers.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Harold Worden worked with his father-in-law full-time from mid-1928 till early 1932. some in his family believed that he also did some drawings for him in prior years (he was a civil engineer by profession) but there isn't anything definite to be found on that.

Among the courses he worked on with Tilly were Metropolis,
Ridgewood, Saxon Woods & Alpine.

Pat, see my last posting regarding his use of some of the boulders. They were actually crushed on site before being used under all of the fairways.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom Mac

I've only read the three Tillinghast books edited by Rick Wolffe, some of his additional Golf Illustrated pieces and Phil Young's books but from this limited material I conclude that Tillinghast was a VERY opinionated individual with a strong will and the ability to communicate with words.

That said, I find it difficult to believe that he would be so influenced in basic style and character by Lees, Low or anyone else. I would prefer to believe Pat Mucci's explanation three posts above.