Bethpage.... Still a Tillinghast course?

[Yannick Pilon]

Sorry if this has been discussed before...

For those who have played it before and after the renovations for the US Open, is Bethpage Black still a true Tillinghast course, or has the Open Doctor modified it beyond true recognition?

I am thinking about driving down there to play it but wonder if it is truly worth the trip, if you really want to play a true Tillinghast course, given Rees Jones' track record and what I have seen at Royal Montreal.  I know its probably worth playing anyway, but still, I would love to hear any comments from you guys out there who have played it many times....

Thanks in advance for any input.

Yannick

By the way, any advice on how to get a tee time, or is the best way to play just to get in line early in the morning, as the legend says...?

[Paul Jones]

Yannick,

I played it last year and loved it - best deal in golf.  I am planning another trip for next year.

[Yannick Pilon]

Paul,

But do you know if it is still true to Tillinghast's design?  I am just wondering how much "tweaking" was done by Rees Jones....

Yannick

[Paul Jones]

Yannick,

I do not since I have not played it before the redesign.

I will have to defer to the GCA locals of NY to comment on the before and after ratings.

Paul

[Don Scott]

Yannick,

If you listen to Golf Digest, it was never a Tillie course to begin with.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I have played BB since 1969.  

It has never been better.  If you look at the 1938 aerial and overlay the 2002 aerial they are remarkably similar.  Rees moved a few bunkers to pinch in a couple of greenside landing areas and extended or moved a couple of fairway bunkers but it is better then I could have expected for a course whose mission was to host the US Open.  I perhaps wish it had more of the older Pine Valley like look rather then the sharp edged winged foot type bunker style but I don't think that could have been maintained given the dawn to dusk muni tee times that result in a huge amount of play.

If you are disappointed I will refund your green fee!

[Yannick Pilon]

Don,

Yeah, I know.  But that's another story.

[Dave Bourgeois]

I would be shocked if you were disappointed.  I've seen the photos the Geoffrey is referring to and they are extremely close.  Given the amount of play that the course gets it is also in great shape most of the time.

[Wayne Freeman]

Yannick-  I'm certainly no golf course architect, but I did play Bethpage before the renovation,  walk it during the process, and play it after completion of the project.  I also had the opportunity to talk to some of the guys working there. Everything seemed to me to be done with great care and concern for authenticity.  Vast amounts of overgrown brush and the like was removed, but the most dramatic change was in the redo of the bunkers, which are just fabulous.  Bethpage is a true gem and a most worthy Open track.

[T_MacWood]

Yannick
Bethpage-Black is a grand golf course, but if your goal is to play a true Tillinghast course thats not the course. For his early style I'd recommend Somerset Hills; for his later style: Winged Foot or Fenway (a couple of other possiblities--I undertand the Upper course at Baltusrol is well preserved, as is Baltimore).

What about Scarboro?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Yannick
Bethpage-Black is a grand golf course, but if your goal is to play a true Tillinghast course thats not the course. For his early style I'd recommend Somerset Hills; for his later style: Winged Foot or Fenway (a couple of other possiblities--I undertand the Upper course at Baltusrol is well preserved, as is Baltimore).

What about Scarboro?

Tom- nice to see you posting.  Now for deja vu - You are quite full of it with regard to Bethpage Black as I've said many times.  There are MINOR changes to the position of some bunkers that affect play in a minimal way.  The overlays of the old and new aerials are strikingly similar in position, size and shape.  There is FAR more restored then changed.

That said - I totally disapprove of the recently added new bunkers on 8 and 14 (left) as well as the altering of the 14th green to make two stupid sucker pin locations that will be used two times every ten years.

[Brad Tufts]

Yannick,

I played down there at Bethpage on 6/17, and it was a great experience.  The course is very well-maintained, and there are some holes out there where you feel like you are in heaven.  I will say that some of them appear more new (Rees) than old (Tillie), as it seems some of the quirk and old-time design has been covered over with huge sweeping waste bunkers and mounding.  Despite this fact, it is apparently much better than before, and the course was not going to be a US Open test with the original bunkering.

As for tee times, the only way to adaquately do it on a weekend is to find a friend with a NY state drivers license to play with.  If you do that, you have to get his name and license # in their tee time system, and once that is done (takes a day pretty much), you/he can call 7 days in advance of the day you want to play starting at 7pm, using the # to try for a time on the automated system.  For a weekday, I imagine less people would be calling, and it would be slightly easier to get a time.  The catch is that if you make the "NY resident" time, he has to play with you I think, as they check his/your ID upon check-in.  If this is not possible, then your best bet is to line up in your car, before midnight gets you the first spot in line for a weekday, and I imagine around 8-9pm would get you near the top for a weekend time.  The only annoying thing about that process is if you arrive late, you will not get an open time until late in the day, making the wait even longer.

Hope that helped...

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey
I'm not a fan of Rees's stylized greenside bunkers and I would have preferred restoring the original 1938 bunkers as far as look and placement - I count 16 greenside bunker complexes that have different or new bunkering. That is a lot. Contrast the attention to detail at Fenway to the attention to detail with Rees.  

Based on Yannick's question I think there are other courses that would give him a more accurate representation of Tillinghast.

Even before the course fell into disrepair (and had to be renovated) it was aetypical of Tilly...the bunkering was fairly unique and the greens comparatively short on character. Rand Jerris of the USGA, a real student of Tilly, speculates that the bunkering may have been the influenced of Stanley Thompson who was - at the time- receiving a great deal of attention in Golf Illustrated...Tilly being the editor of that magazine. And of course there is plenty of speculation regarding the greens and the influence of Burbeck.

Despite my anal view of these issues Bethpage-Black is still a fabulous course and a stiff test.

[Matt MacIver]

The bunkering on BB 18 is an eyesore, but the course is magnificent....

I too was completely underwhelmed by the 18th bunkering -- I just didn't think it belonged.  

Can someone tell me how the current bunkers relate to whatever existing bunkers where there -- i.e. identical, or similar in scale but different in shape, etc....?

[Yannick Pilon]

Tom,

Thanks for your comments.  This is exactly the type of answer I was looking for.

I have no doubt Bethpage Black would be a great course to play.  But my question was:  Is this course a true representation of Tillinghast's work.

I think you are making a strong point.

Yannick

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom,

Thanks for your comments.  This is exactly the type of answer I was looking for.

I have no doubt Bethpage Black would be a great course to play.  But my question was:  Is this course a true representation of Tillinghast's work.

I think you are making a strong point.

Yannick

Yannick -

Tom is simply WRONG.  I hope Tommy will post some aerial comparisons from 1938 and 2002 to make the point.  Were you to make similar comparisons of Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Yeamans Hall, Seminole and probably many others you would see (from aerials) that they have changed more then Bethpage.

By the way- There are some recently uncovered old photos of Fenway that look quite a bit different then what is currently in the ground.

Yannick- If you are looking for some prototypical Tillinghast course then you are in for a disappointment wherever you go since there is no such thing.  Tillie perhaps more then any other architect has varied his style to suit the property.  Thus, Bethpage is very different from Winged Foot which is very different from Quaker Ridge and Rockaway Hunting Club and Newport and San Francisco Golf Club. It is part of his greatness that he could be so varied in his work.

I am also becoming convinced that bunkering is but one significant but NOT DOMINANT feature of a course that needs to be preserved.  Yale is showing me that.  Thus, tree infestation, mowing patterns, maintenance meld and greens expansions to original sizes are equally important as is bunkering. In that rregard, Bethpage fails with mowing patterns as the stupid narrow corredors of US Open setups are still present but routing and playability are there in spades.

[Yannick Pilon]

Geoffrey,

Well, I think you are also making a strong point with your comment.

That's what I am noticing too from Tillie's work.  There is no such thing as a Tillinghast style....  Or if so, I don't know what it is, yet!  But I am still quite far from knowing much about his work....

Thanks for your input.

Yannick

[Glenn Spencer]

I don't want to interrupt this quality thread that I am enjoying, but I was wondering. Is it universally agreed for the most part that 4 and 5 are the best back-to-back holes anywhere on the planet? I think they have the 'most' Tillie (whatever that is) in them and would be worth the trip alone.

[Tom Huckaby]

I don't want to interrupt this quality thread that I am enjoying, but I was wondering. Is it universally agreed for the most part that 4 and 5 are the best back-to-back holes anywhere on the planet? I think they have the 'most' Tillie (whatever that is) in them and would be worth the trip alone.

Is anything universally agreed upon?  

Any of the following could be easily argued as equal to or superior to those holes at BB:

15-16, 14-15, 8-9, 12-13 or 16-17 Cypress Point

6-7, 7-8, 8-9, 9-10 Pebble Beach

1-2, 2-3, 3-4, or basically any combination of two at NGLA..

1-2, 13-14, 16-17 Sand Hills

6-7, 3-4, or any of a number of other combinations at Pacific Dunes.

Need I go on?

 

[Noel Freeman]

Tillie is an enigma.. Alpine CC in Demarest, NJ is unlike any other Tillie I've played especially given the terrain--built into a granite hill.. He had different styles, he put no fairway bunkers on my course which most people associate with him b/c of the land.. Yet, I have greens committee members who want to add them for excitement.. I guess 120 foot tee to green drops are too bland for their tastes..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yannick Pilon,

Listen to people who are intimately familiar with BPB, and not intelopers from the mid-west who have a cursory experience with BPB.

You won't be disappointed when you play the golf course, it's terrific.

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey
IMO the idea that Tilly did not have style and that all his courses differ wildly from one another is a misconception.

From what I've been able to dig up you can divide Tilly's architecture into two distinct styles or periods. An early style which was more angular - angular grass rimmed bunkers, greens that are more platform-like and distinct mounding. Courses like Somerset Hills, early Quaker Ridge, Shackmaxon, Bluff Point, Baltusrol and Essex County. Most of these courses were collaboration with George Low and Peter Lees.

The second period features softer curved bunkers often with more sand showing, often with obtuse angles, greens better integrated into land and generally more sophisticated or modern look and feel.

"Bethpage is very different from Winged Foot which is very different from Quaker Ridge and Rockaway Hunting Club and Newport and San Francisco Golf Club."

From what I've found there is usually an explanation for the anomalies. Quaker Ridge was nine originally designed/built by JD Dunn, with another nine routed but not built. Tilly, Low & Lees remodeled the original nine and added another nine (1918). That course was redesigned by William Rice Hochster in 1926 (4 or 5 new holes), then we have RTJ and Rees doing their "work" there as well.

I thought Rockaway Hunting was originally Devereux Emmet.

Winged Foot is good example of latter style, along with Baltimore, Fresh Meadow-NLE, Fenway, Philadelphia Cricket, Ridgewood and Sunneagles. From what I've seen of Newport, I'd put in this group as well.

If you look at early photos of SFGC and study Tilly's plan you will see it shared the same characteristics of his other courses. It and Baltusrol appear to be transition courses between his early and later styles. The flashy bunkers that the course is known for is the work of Billy Bell working on his own.

Noel
I suspect the reason Alpine is different is a case of bad timing...in the midst the Depression. My impresssion is the guy who was in charge of building the golf course was a local man...who I'd never heard before.

Do you have Tilly's original plan? I'd be surpised if it did not have any fairway bunkers (when Ohio State GC was built during the Depression they also ommitted the fairway bunkers too, cost cutting). I also wonder about the log retaining wall that shored up a lakeside green...that looks like that might be the handywork of the local man too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yannick Pilon,

Listen to people who are intimately familiar with BPB, and not intelopers from the mid-west who have a cursory experience with BPB.

You won't be disappointed when you play the golf course, it's terrific.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom Mac

If you would visit more Tillinghast courses it would be obvious to you that his bunkering style, routings and fairway corredors fit the scale of the property. The greens at Somerset, Winged Foot, Alpine, Quaker Ridge, Ridgewood, Brooklawn and Bethpage among others are quite distinctive and immune to a single style or recognition as "Tillinghast greens". Tillinghast had many styles in my opinion based on the courses I've visited.

Rockaway was originally Dev Emmet but it was virtually a total redo by Tillie.  His 9th hole at RHC is a unique (to him as far as I can tell) brutal water front hole that follows the masterful par 4 7th and 8th holes. Its a great stretch of short, mid length and very long par 4's unlike ANYTHING else I've seen from him at other courses.

I think you over simplify Tillinghast as an architect by trying to put his courses within two styles.

Alpine is a brutally difficult course that has terrain that might not NEED fairway bunkering.  It hardly needed to be made harder.  Greenside bunkering and those greens coupled with the elevation changes work quite well to create a challenge for any level player.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, you answered Noel by stating about Aldecress (original name for Alpine) that, "I suspect the reason Alpine is different is a case of bad timing...in the midst the Depression. My impresssion is the guy who was in charge of building the golf course was a local man...who I'd never heard before."

You are correct, the gentleman that Tilly put in charge of building Aldecress was a local man, especially to Tilly as he lived in the house he built for him directly behind his own in Harrington Park. His name is Harold Worden and he was Tilly's son-in-law.

Harold began working for Tilly in the late 20's and used his degree as a civil engineer to versee his projects. In an article that Worden wrote about the Aldecress project, he stated, "I think the greens are the most pleasing I ever have seen, imposing yet of pleasing simplicity. Each has its rock foundation and several were built entirely of assembled stones before the soil was drawn over in ample measure. Even the approaches to the greens were contoured as ingeniously as the greens themselves. This new course is a great one."

About his father-in-laws work on the project he also wrote that, "The finished product was a monument to golf architecture. Aldecress is a golf architect’s Dream."