Yale: all that it is cracked up to be and more

[Geoffrey Childs]

Michael

I don't believe those measurements but I will make an effort to pace them off next time I'm up there.

[Michael Moore]

Geoff -

Because you are a vocal and public critic of the Yale Golf Course, I want you to be credible when you talk about it. That's why I just spent an hour investigating your claims.

When mapmaking I do not get my measurements from Google Earth, but I do use the program to double check them. They are always spot on.

I would rather you not erode trust in Google Earth because it is key resource for this board as well as my business.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Mayday:

hole #3 - the green was moved considerably to the left - various reasons previously discussed but I would clarify for you if you'd like. The original green was right next to the water and the play from the fairway was stright thru, not over the left hill.  Notice how the present 3-green is the only flat (pancake) green on the course.

hole #10 - no controversy - just a great hole to many of us - very unique

I think people are beginning to "get it" about #18

unfortunately, a number of years ago a noted writer really panned the hole (not understanding it)

gb

George, et al -

To me, one of the distinguishing characteristics of The Course at Yale was that it was a product of its times from a technology standpoint.

1) From a construction perspective, you duly note in "The Evangelist of Golf", that "Raynor took on a challenge that many would have walked away from given the difficulties of the Tompkins site" (Loose paraphrase as your book is at home).  Given the generous $400,000 budget, a ready supply of dynamite (No major wars during construction), a hearty and available labor force, and a master engineer, Yale was buildable - barely, given the amount of soil and sand on the property.

2) Golf club technology in the 1920's with the advent of the steel shaft, the eventuality of the Sand Wedge, and better, more consistent quality of golf balls made the immense challenge of Yale somewhat playable.

My point is that Yale had to be epic in proportions and difficulty to battle against the technology of its time.  Hence, given #1 & #2 above, these factors enabled Raynor & Macdonald to give us the wildest versions of their holes to date.  700 acres (With a potential 2nd course that was laid out) also helped them find these monsters.  We can quibble about which redan, alps, cape, knoll, etc. hole are their best works, but Yale puts so many outstanding examples of their templates in front of the golfer, along with ideas rarely seen in their other courses:

#1 Green - Combo punchbowl/road green
#2 A skyline cape
#3 Double punchbowl in its original location
#4 Just for its routing/site
#5 My favorite hole and version of it with the green horseshoe will be the 1st hole on KeeverTown G.C. and Steakhouse after I hit the MegaMillions (Hit the green or start your round with a double bogey)
#8 Never has a slicer been more grateful
#9 Biarritz to the nth degree
#10 Shinnecock #9 on steroids with the carry tee shot
#11 Artistry in getting the fairway and greenside bunkers on the left tied in their rock walls to their backsides - a nice reminder of the site work that was done
#12 Alps with a two-tiered green on a blind 2nd shot
#13 Redan over water
#14 Knoll with a wedding cake top
#17 Double Plateau fronted with The Principal's Nose
#18 High Road and Low Road (Glad to see the hole not as choked on the tee and 2nd shots)

They also camoflaged alot of the landing areas look smaller than they really are.

I hope that I am not restating or plagerizing your ideas from the book or this site, but at Yale, "The Hits Just Keep on Coming".

Most of us have seen the holes before on other courses.  Yale is all of the knowledge and technology vs. all of the player technology.  Most first time players are awed by the boldness, the scale and the terrain.  Along the way, they learn about fear from being in the wrong position of their own making, stamina due to the terrain and the intense punishments meted out to the less than well struck shot, and occasionally, elation from pulling off the right shot at the right time.

Perhaps they should have named the course "Maine", as in "You can't get there from here", based upon the physical location in finding the course the first time as well as where you will have to try to recover from once you are on its hallowed grounds.  In the end though, The Course at Yale lives up to the university's motto:  Lux et Veritas (Light AND Truth) because in spite of it's stern and foreboding nature, the crafty and guileful can manage their way around quite nicely, thank you.  [FYI - Harvard's motto is just "Veritas" - Truth]

JWK

In love with The Course at Yale since 1972 (And I'm only 45)

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoff -

Because you are a vocal and public critic of the Yale Golf Course, I want you to be credible when you talk about it. That's why I just spent an hour investigating your claims.

When mapmaking I do not get my measurements from Google Earth, but I do use the program to double check them. They are always spot on.

I would rather you not erode trust in Google Earth because it is key resource for this board as well as my business.

Michael

I got a note from Scott Ramsay this morning regarding those measurements. He is having trouble logging into GCA but I hope that will be fixed later today and he will chime in.

Hopefully he will not mind me quoting him -
'I use
google all the time and occasionally I find the elevations wrong but the
distances seem to be perfect. The challenge here is that the information is
several years old. So any changes to YGC are not represented by
google.earth yet. 18 is 80 yards wide on a long diagonal. 3 is 60 or so and
these will still change as trees turf conditions and irrigation improve."

So my friend you had better make sure your work is with fully updated google maps!

[Tom Huckaby]

You all feel free to erode trust in Google Earth as much as you want, you here?

Tom Huckaby
Sr. Legal Project Manager
Yahoo! Inc.

 

ps - great pics, Sweeney - keep 'em coming!  Mr. Huntley and his motley crew.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

JWK

Add #6 - Levin hole to your list.  The strategies are among the best at Yale.  When ALL the trees on the left are removed with a view of the green form the back tee, the temptation to challenge the water will be even greater.

[Michael Moore]

So any changes to YGC are not represented by
google.earth yet. 18 is 80 yards wide on a long diagonal. 3 is 60 or so . . .

Geoff -

I look forward to Scott's take on these widths.

I'm fairly certain that the current Google New Haven is from 2006.

And as for width "on a long diagonal", I'm not sure what that means. I guess you could say that the first hole is 400 yards wide on a long diagonal.

[Geoffrey Childs]

So any changes to YGC are not represented by
google.earth yet. 18 is 80 yards wide on a long diagonal. 3 is 60 or so . . .

Geoff -

I look forward to Scott's take on these widths.

I'm fairly certain that the current Google New Haven is from 2006.

And as for width "on a long diagonal", I'm not sure what that means. I guess you could say that the first hole is 400 yards wide on a long diagonal.

Michael

That's a silly answer.  I know the effective width of the landing areas on 3 and 18 are very close to what I stated. That there is some diagonal involved in requiring distance control only ADDS to the design and playing options.

Be careful in stating distances if you have not actually been ON THE GROUND YOURSELF.

[Michael Moore]

Geoff -

This is an interesting and civil dialogue on effective playing widths. The triangular shape of the third fairway and the round shape of the eighteenth fairway accommodate left to right and punish right to left.

When I get home tonight I will calculate the angle at which a ball must approach the third hole from the left hand side in order for it to see 60 yards of fairway. Then we can see what a ball coming in from the supplementary angle faces - a much smaller target!  I will do the same for the 18th hole.

But for now "width" means "width" !

[JamesK]

It seems to me that the heart of the matter under discussion at present is whether or not there is adequate fairway at which to aim one's tee shot on certain holes. On #10 (one of the most demanding tee shots I have ever seen anywhere), although Scott has restored some of the fairway on the right side,  I would like to see slightly more restored so that the right-of-center shot that lands up top doesn't risk rolling into the rough (the fairway was narrowed about 15 years ago by Dennis H. (I forget his last name exactly)). On #3 and on #18 there is plenty of fairway but, in both cases, a high degree of risk for the golfer seeking distance. If hit to the correct distance, there is no issue with width. The "grip it and rip it" types, however, will often find themselves in unfavorable circumstances especially to the left. The question then becomes: is it fair to require the golfer to dial his tee shot back a little on a 541-yard hole? Since one can do that and still have two very manageable shots to reach the green, my own feeling is that I know of no guarantee, explicit or implicit, that says that long hitters have the right to go for every par-5 in two. Par-5s used to be known as "three-shotters" and I think that says it all.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

It seems to me that the heart of the matter under discussion at present is whether or not there is adequate fairway at which to aim one's tee shot on certain holes. On #10 (one of the most demanding tee shots I have ever seen anywhere), although Scott has restored some of the fairway on the right side,  I would like to see slightly more restored so that the right-of-center shot that lands up top doesn't risk rolling into the rough (the fairway was narrowed about 15 years ago by Dennis H. (I forget his last name exactly)). On #3 and on #18 there is plenty of fairway but, in both cases, a high degree of risk for the golfer seeking distance. If hit to the correct distance, there is no issue with width. The "grip it and rip it" types, however, will often find themselves in unfavorable circumstances especially to the left. The question then becomes: is it fair to require the golfer to dial his tee shot back a little on a 541-yard hole? Since one can do that and still have two very manageable shots to reach the green, my own feeling is that I know of no guarantee, explicit or implicit, that says that long hitters have the right to go for every par-5 in two. Par-5s used to be known as "three-shotters" and I think that says it all.

James -

They can gladly haul their three wood back to the 621 Yard tee with me and bring everything back into play...

JWK

Someone once told me that if I wanted a guarantee, I should buy a dishwasher...

[Jay Flemma]

Place was amazing, I'll have a little piece up on my blog soon, meantime, Jim Keever's analysis was so spot on, he gave me permission for a reprint.

Great stuff guys...I was most impressed and really enjoyed it.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Place was amazing, I'll have a little piece up on my blog soon, meantime, Jim Keever's analysis was so spot on, he gave me permission for a reprint.

Great stuff guys...I was most impressed and really enjoyed it.

Jay - some of those hole quotes are from Banks and George Bahto's book.  You might want to reference him if you reproduce it on your blog.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Geoff -

I agree with you that some of the descriptions/terms of the holes are from George's book, as well as the Yale yardage book, as well as the Courses by Country from this very site.  I certainly don't want to steal his ideas, or anyone else's.  I even e-mailed George prior to your post to inform him of such.  Somewhere in my original post might have been an original thought, but after reading virtually every word written about the course in print, the're all running together.

I am not Jordan Wall, or a 19 year old literary student from Harvard.

JWK


JWK

[Michael Moore]

"An eighty yard-wide fairway!"

"Where, I don't see it."

"See, here . . . . diagonally."

"Pretty sneaky, sis."

[Geoffrey Childs]

"An eighty yard-wide fairway!"

"Where, I don't see it."

"See, here . . . . diagonally."

"Pretty sneaky, sis."

Michael

You're right and Scott Ramsay is wrong. End of story.      

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Place was amazing, I'll have a little piece up on my blog soon, meantime, Jim Keever's analysis was so spot on, he gave me permission for a reprint.

Great stuff guys...I was most impressed and really enjoyed it.

Jay - some of those hole quotes are from Banks and George Bahto's book.  You might want to reference him if you reproduce it on your blog.

Jay by all means, please do reference Mr. Bahto's definitive work from "The Evangelist of Golf" as the chapter on Yale is informative and directly comprehensive.

Dr. Childs, FYI from my earlier Post:

"George, et al -

To me, one of the distinguishing characteristics of The Course at Yale was that it was a product of its times from a technology standpoint.

1) From a construction perspective, you duly note in "The Evangelist of Golf", that..."

"I hope that I am not restating or plagerizing your ideas from the book or this site, but at Yale, "The Hits Just Keep on Coming"."

JWK

[JamesK]

Mr. Keever
Well said.
JSK

[Jay Flemma]

I have something up, hope you guys like it.  Gotta jet, legal work calling...

[Geoffrey Childs]

Place was amazing, I'll have a little piece up on my blog soon, meantime, Jim Keever's analysis was so spot on, he gave me permission for a reprint.

Great stuff guys...I was most impressed and really enjoyed it.

Jay - some of those hole quotes are from Banks and George Bahto's book.  You might want to reference him if you reproduce it on your blog.

Jay by all means, please do reference Mr. Bahto's definitive work from "The Evangelist of Golf" as the chapter on Yale is informative and directly comprehensive.

Dr. Childs, FYI from my earlier Post:

"George, et al -

To me, one of the distinguishing characteristics of The Course at Yale was that it was a product of its times from a technology standpoint.

1) From a construction perspective, you duly note in "The Evangelist of Golf", that..."

"I hope that I am not restating or plagerizing your ideas from the book or this site, but at Yale, "The Hits Just Keep on Coming"."

JWK

JWK- duly noted -  I was not trying to take away from your spot on comments but just making sure that the appropriate reference to George and his work is recognized by Jay who might not be familiar with the book.

Apparently he isn't because his blog piece makes no mention of it along with stating that 9 AND 17 are biarritz greens. I think the piece needs an edit.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Place was amazing, I'll have a little piece up on my blog soon, meantime, Jim Keever's analysis was so spot on, he gave me permission for a reprint.

Great stuff guys...I was most impressed and really enjoyed it.

Jay - some of those hole quotes are from Banks and George Bahto's book.  You might want to reference him if you reproduce it on your blog.

Jay by all means, please do reference Mr. Bahto's definitive work from "The Evangelist of Golf" as the chapter on Yale is informative and directly comprehensive.

Dr. Childs, FYI from my earlier Post:

"George, et al -

To me, one of the distinguishing characteristics of The Course at Yale was that it was a product of its times from a technology standpoint.

1) From a construction perspective, you duly note in "The Evangelist of Golf", that..."

"I hope that I am not restating or plagerizing your ideas from the book or this site, but at Yale, "The Hits Just Keep on Coming"."

JWK

JWK- duly noted -  I was not trying to take away from your spot on comments but just making sure that the appropriate reference to George and his work is recognized by Jay who might not be familiar with the book.

Apparently he isn't because his blog piece makes no mention of it along with stating that 9 AND 17 are biarritz greens. I think the piece needs an edit.

Dr. Childs -

Agreed that Jay needs an edit to his blog since he did not incorporate the earlier portion of my post referencing Mr. Bahto as well as my points on course constrution technology vs. golf equipment technology.  It doesn't matter to me that he left out my dig at Harvard as I did not attend Yale as my father did.  

As we both have learned from our elders, 17 is a double plateau, but the entire hole reminds me so much of #16 at Pine Valley because of the blind tee shot and the shape of the green.  The woods and cart path simulate the pond on #16 at PV quite well when the pin on #17 Yale is cut on the right.  I know that #16 at PV is not a double plateau as Mr. Mucci has pointed out, but to me, the holes are similar.  (And in the Court of My Opinion, I am Judge and Jury)

Jay, no quibble here with your blog assessment of the views, but the successive downhill views on #8, #9, #10 and particularly on #11 are among my most treasured in golf - especially on October 15th or thereabouts.

Geoffrey, #6 at Yale in it's current state is an adequately good rendition of redo #18 at The Quail Hollow Club...(Hold Grenade, Pull Pin, Throw Pin, Discard Grenade at Feet, Reach for Another Grenade... ;)).  BTW I nutted a 3 metal from the tips on #6 Monday and we all thouoght that I had carved it around the corner.  I had to have stand in the elbow of the creek for my second.  Normally I block a 2 iron through the fairway into the gunch on 2 - never-to-be-found.  3 metal doesn't get me around the corner downwind.  Driver snap hooked into the left quagmire may be the strategy!?!?!?!  Just get it close on the 3rd after the drop.  But I always play #18 at QHC in Par - Funny game isn't it?

JWK

[Geoffrey Childs]

JWK

It's great to see passions reflecting experiences on a great golf course. Yours are surely on the mark.

I do disagree with Jay's comments about the short game options around the greens.  He states "The half-star off is because I had to pretty much exclusively use wedge around the greens. There were few bump and run shots or putt from pff the green approaches. Just a little too few greenside options."

Lets see now- On #'s 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 11, 12, 16, 17 and 18 you can use nearly any club in your bag including your putter for chip/pitch shots depending on the pin location on the lage greens.  With the green expansions and conditioning having them run at 10 or greater stimp readings they have come alive with even greater options.

[Jay Flemma]

Guys, there is SO much that has to be said about that golf course that I just dont have time.

I got a little confused about that whole thing about what was form the book and what was not.  What I'll do is put in, "some of Jim's comments are excerpted from Bahto and Bank's book about the course.

I took out the Harvard dig just because that would open up a whole can of worms.

Thatnks for turning me on to the book too.

Honestly guys, the reason why I hired on two new writers is to ease the load on me...working full time as a lawyer and full time as a sportswriter leaves me little time for my future ex-girlfriend;)

Boy does that wall feel good against my head.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

JWK

It's great to see passions reflecting experiences on a great golf course. Yours are surely on the mark.

I do disagree with Jay's comments about the short game options around the greens.  He states "The half-star off is because I had to pretty much exclusively use wedge around the greens. There were few bump and run shots or putt from pff the green approaches. Just a little too few greenside options."

Lets see now- On #'s 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 11, 12, 16, 17 and 18 you can use nearly any club in your bag including your putter for chip/pitch shots depending on the pin location on the lage greens.  With the green expansions and conditioning having them run at 10 or greater stimp readings they have come alive with even greater options.

Geoffrey -

Jay, to his defense, did try the running approach shot on #17 and #18 (Along with one other hole - maybe #14?), and the general soggy conditions from all of the rain may be influencing his opinion.  Mayday tried it on #8 and got pushed further away than if he had taken a more direct line from the front middle right fairway fringe of "A Sinistra"  (Latin Phrase from the yardage book for "To the left").  I tried to run it to the back left location from 80 yards from the right intermediate rough on #18 and was stopped dead by the spongy fringe.  I didn't want to fly it all of the way to the back pin and go over.  On #1, I had a chip that could have run off of the plateau on the right from my angle.  Chickening out, I came up 3 feet short on the chip, and then blew the putt.  Speed control for the ground game is paramount, but you can also fly it right to the hole in certain situations (#10, #9 back location), and be rewarded for less exacting execution.

One of Scott Ramsey's challenges with the greens at Yale will involve the mowing of the extreme slopes at #9 and #10 (#13?).  I'd love to watch how they do it.

JWK

[Jay Flemma]

Geoff - come on, bump and run to number 2????javascript:replaceText(' ')
Grin  I was left of left and smashed a 6-iron perfevctly at the flag and it hit the %$#$%ing top step and caromed 100 yards back into the hip high rough on the left.  

With rspect, there are not 11 bumpm and run holes, some approaches are WAY uphill...it's not crystal downs you know...