Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?

[Jerry Kluger]

I had the fortunate opportunity to play NGLA and #16 has a dramatic Punchbowl green.  The hole is uphill and has some cross bunkers well short of the green and the recommended approach called for a running shot into the Punchbowl.  The greens often included a spine running through them but I do not remember that at NGLA.  

This is a feature that I have not seen on a modern course although I do not claim that they do not exist.  The closest I've seen is the 4th hole at Jim Engh's Blackstone in Arizona, which to some degree also incorporate a feeling of a Cape hole.  The hole plays across a water hazard and then back across the hazard to the green.  The green has two sections, a large Punchbowl on the left, and a spine to the right leading to a much smaller section of the green which has almost a Cape feeling as it looks as if it is floating above the water surrounded by desert to the right and rear.  

The question I pose is whether this is a feature which golfers would appreciate today if executed as Macdonald did at NGLA or sites in Scotland, and have you seen any modern courses incorporating this feature?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The punchbowl green should and hopefully will live forever. Mountain Lake has a great example at 14 I believe. I will break out my stroke saver for I seem to think Ganton has a nice one as well.

[Mike Hendren]

The alps/punchbowl 6th at Black Creek is totally manufactured and a blast to play:



Winner of the Nationwide Tour event there shot 61 yesterday!

Mike

[Jerry Kluger]

When was Black Creek built, any other features from the classical era present on the course?

[PThomas]

the punchbowl at Bluemound in WI was unbelievably cool!!!

[George Pazin]

From Ran's NGLA profile:

16th hole, 405 yards, Punchbowl; Macdonald captured some of the fun and sporting spirit of the game when he designed this blind approach to a punchbowl green. Though Macdonald thought that Prestwick and Royal St. George's had too many blind shots ('more than three blind shots are a defect and they should be at the end of a fine long shot only'), he clearly liked the element of chance and mystery that a random blind approach shot afforded a course. His associate Seth Raynor would later build the ultimate Alps/Punchbowl hole at the 4th at Fishers Island.





Didn't someone mention that one of the holes at Stone Eagle was a Punchbowl like hole?

I've always been under the impression that the biggest impediment to a Punchbowl hole was the drainange issue.

When was Black Creek built, any other features from the classical era present on the course?

There is an excellent profile on this site. The course is a modern course built by Brian Silva that is kind of a Raynor tribute course.

Black Creek profile

[Dan Kelly]

Would someone please *define* "punchbowl"? Thank you.

[john_stiles]

As mentioned, see Black Creek profile.  BC also has enjoyable reverse redan, spine, a biarittz (with a green front portion), etc.

Lookout Mountain in Chattanooga also has a wonderful alps/punchbowl from Silva restoration.  This restoration work would lead Silva to the Black Creek work.

Black Creek biarritz 17th hole



A punchbowl 'hole' or punchbowl 'green' would have higher sides than the center of the green, hence a bowl effect, where shots may roll off the sides towards the center. There are many variations of course.  Maybe the front is open, or perhaps the bowl effect is very minor, or extremely exaggerated. Or maybe the green is relatively flat but is down in a low area, in a bowl setting, where the sloping sides are not part of the green.  Sometimes, the bowl effect actually includes some portion of the putting surface with the higher sides being part of the green.

In the modern era,   maybe some think a punch bowl green rewards too many errant shots.

[ForkaB]

Would someone please *define* "punchbowl"? Thank you.

I'll try, Dan.

"concave"

Getting to the topic, I would guess that to modern tastes they are too "easy."  I like them, in moderation.

[Paul Jones]

I know that Mike Riley is putting a Punch Bowl green at Rivermont in Alpharetta, GA.  I have not had a chance to see it yet.  He is also puting a Redan Hole.

This is a redeisgn of a Joe Lee course.

[George_Bahto]

here is the great ground level punchbowl at Chicago Golf:

[Mike Boehm]

I've never played a punchbowl green that I recall.  On a typical punchbowl, are the sides of the "bowl" pinnable or do most hole locations tend to be in the center of the green as the sides are too severe?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Neither Jerry

In addition to the Raynor tribute at Black Creek, Mike Devries built as natural and playable a modern punchbowl as one could hope for at The Kingsley Club.

The par 3 #5 as seen in Ran's course profile

[George_Bahto]

the great 16th at National

from the side




from behind - looking back towards it fairway

[George_Bahto]

the approach - NGLA 16 with the requisite Macdoanld deception bunkering

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John Stiles,
As I retierated to you when we last talked, I look forward to someday getting to Chattanoga (presumebly by choo-choo) and a look at Black Creek, a most prime work by the leader of the DeSilva Family Syndicate out of Boston.

However, I do have one question: I dont know if its the same photo I'm always seeing of the Biarritz at Black Creek, but each photo, well it more or less cuts off the entire right side of the hole. What's over there--that portion which we cannot see? Is the hole tucked into a corner of the property? Is this where all the bodies are buried that didn't pay their gambling debts?

Enquiring minds are dying to know.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jerry,

The reason I think the punchbowl green at NGLA works so well is the nature of the fairway.

A spine with two flanking, deep punchbowls, from which sighting of the green is impossible.

In other words, most tee shots end up in a fairway bowl, leaving a blind approach shot for the golfer.

The beauty of the hole is the forgiving nature of the punchbowl green, relative to the incoming, blind approach shot.

That combination blends penal with the fortuitous design and conspires to present a most enjoyable hole.

With respect to why punchbowls aren't more prevalent, I submit that it's a combination of the lack of well draining subsoil and a lack of imagination.

[ForkaB]

Dornoch has two of the very best (8 and 17), each of which can be (carefully) pinned on the peripheries of the bowl.  The picture of Chicago's manufactured mound-fest drops that course down a few notches on my "might wanna play someday" list.

[ForkaB]

Mark

NGLA's spine is in the fairway, no?  Two fairway punchbowls is cool (particularly when you then hit to a punchbowl green!), but there are very few double punchbowl greens, except of course, the 4th at Dornoch......

[BCrosby]

Mike Young has built a remarkable punchbowl. His 17th at Long Shadow is a 220 yard uphill punchbowl that is huge.  It is somehow both forgiving and severe.

It's a great hole that I will try to photo and post some pictures of in the future.

Long Shadow should open for play early this Fall. I think.

[Evan Fleisher]

George, thanks for posting the pictures.  Rich's comments regarding mounding makes me wonder if there's a Mike Stranz punchbowl out there somewhere!

The National's Punchbowl is awesome.  The ridge running down the middle, creating a double punchbowl.  And CB's juxtaposition of the subtle with the wild.

Has modern agronomy contributed to the scarcity of Punchbowl holes?  Is the conventional wisdom today that legitimate Punchbowls can't be built but must be flattened to accommodate high green speeds?

Or have they always been scarce...

Mark

Mark,

I think you nearly beat me to it!  My thoughts exactly, and here is what I've come up with:



...it is the par-5 13th hole at Tobacco Road, the closest thing I could come up with and one I thought of as soon as this thread topic was proposed.  I'm not sure if it is a "true" punchbowl green...but from my recollections playing there back in 1999 it fits the bill fairly well.

I also concur with the above sentiments that a punchbowl can seem a bit "contrived", but given an appropriate topography to work with, I think they can be a very fun and exciting feature to have on a golf course.

[George_Bahto]

Would the lack of punchbowl holes being built over the last many years have a lot to do with drainage in other than sandy soils  ?

Seems on the clay-laden northeast, you'd have to raise one substantially and do a real great drainage job beneath.

We have a raised one at Essex Couty CC - raised considerably and the green drains wonderfully - this with the original Charles Banks drains under it.

Even the great 6th hole at Creek (on sandy Long Island) - sitting in a punchbowl, with a 2-level green had to have a slot in the berm to let out surface run-off.

[D_Malley]

one of the most unique punchbowl greens i have ever seen is #3 at Pocono Manor East (Donald Ross 1902).  190yard par 3, green sits down about 25-30ft. below ground surface.  i think mark fine has a very good picture of it.  are there any other par 3 punchbowl greens where the entire green is hidden from view?

[Pete Lavallee]

Here's Brian Silva"s punchbowl green on the 457 yard par 4 15th at Waverly Oaks in Plymouth, Ma. Definetly built on sandy soil; just how manufacteured it is I couldn't tell you. It is a very fun hole to play; not as blind as the green on the par 5 at Black Creek; but with good reason considering the differing nature of the two holes.

[Jerry Kluger]

So is it the soil conditions that limit the use of the Punchbowl or is it simply a relic of the old days and today's golfer doesn't like the randomness of the result.  A good shot will be rewarded but a not so good shot will also be rewarded with a good bounce.  Can that be fun if played on a regular basis or in a tournament situation?

Some people, including Matt Ward, have been critical of some new courses that have moundings or other features around the greens which have been referred to as "containment" areas - is this the evolution of the Punchbowl?