The Mickelson Argument Continues On TGC

[Tom Zeni]

Mark Cannizarro, a sports writer in NY, spoke to "Bones" a day after the Open.

Bones story is that if Phil used a 4 wood and hits it in the rough, he couldn't reach the green with his 2nd shot.  So it that the reason you pull driver, that has had you in touble all day?

The resounding answer is "NO!" Why? Because if Phil does find the rough with his 4 wood, then needing to lay up, what's the worst that can happen? Ah, he finds himself with the same chip shot Ogilvy had. Advantage Mickelson. Who's better than Phil with a wedge in his hand? Since Trevino - no one.

So Bones, with your stated thinking, you and Phil errored to the point of blowing the US Open.

BTW, it was announced Phil asked out of the Par 3 tourney he participates in at Michigan each year. That's a bad move. Phil needs to take a cue from Monte who is playing this week and leading. Sure he feels terrible. But get back out, get past the questions, show people you can still play, and have some fun in an event where it's all about fun.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom....the tourney is over and the best golfer that week has won.

[Tom Zeni]

Yep, I agree. However, the cover-your-butt actions of Bones is inexcusable. That, and a phantom 20mph wind at the 18th.

Best that Bones follow his player's lead and state that he too was an idiot.

[Gary Daughters]

Seen from afar it seems pretty simple to me.

Monty was Monty and Phil was Phil.  Monty, bless him, can't make himself win a major.  And Phil had to play the gambler.  He couldn't help himself.

Maybe the real question is whether and how Winged Foot exposed them.  It seems the course produced a distinctly worthy champion.

[David Neveux]

Tom I completely agree.  Just thought I'd add that Sportscenter just confirmed Mickelson is out and that Dimarco will now join Freddy C, The Walrus, and defending champ Andy North.  Mickelson stated that he, "thought it was unfair to the event to act like he could have a lot of fun right now."  I guess thats fair, although I think it really hurts the event.  I love watching those guys play there.  I played once, talk about a club selection nightmare.  As far as Monte goes, he's leading the Johnny Walker.  Different strokes for different folkes I suppose.  I give Monte a lot of credit for showing up with some nice form a week later.    

[Tom Zeni]

Let's see, a few years ago I recall Phil saying how pleased he was with his play when he finished 3rd at the Master's to Tiger.

Now, he's bummed for a long period of time because he finished 2nd. Yes, with the foolish way it ended, there is a lot more to be bummed about. But Monte is showing what you do in the face of bitter defeat, and recall, he foolishly blew it too.

While this was more than about money, I always recall what Lee Trevino said about golf tournaments. When you win, you get lots of money. And when you lose, you still get lots of money.

As a side note, regardless of the varying degrees of like and dislike for Fuzzy, I always got a kick at the Par 3 tourney when he was swinging as he was talking!

[TEPaul]

Oh, it's such a shame that Phil didn't have someone from this site on his bag on #18. Had he, there's no question he would've been brought home the Champ of the US Open. It's too bad Phil has to have a such a dolt and such and excuse-maker like Bones caddying for him. You'd think if Phil is ever going to win a US Open at least he'd do what it takes to win a US Open and hire one of the contributors to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com to caddie for him and bring him home as the Champ.  

In my opinion, there's no question what Phil was trying to do on the tee and even on that second shot as shocking as it all turned out for him in the end. Being Phil he was playing to win that thing right there on the last hole, no questions asked. I'd almost guarantee that the worst scenario going through his mind was to play safe and risk about a 50/50 chance of playing his way into a playoff. Before he hit that disasterous second shot I bet the very real risk of losing the tournament right there basically did not enter his mind. He probably didn't even want to let himself think about something that negative.

On the other hand, let's say what so many of the Monday Morning quarterbacks suggested that he should have done was what he did---eg play an iron off the tee, maybe another iron short and risk getting up and down. Let's say he did that and didn't quite manage to get up and down and then had to go into an 18 hole playoff the next day. And then ended up losing that 18 hole playoff.

Can you imagine that? The press and this website would've completely CRUCIFIED Phil for consciously choosing a strategy like that, if it ended up with a lose in an 18 hole playoff.  

[TEPaul]

"Admit that Phil screwed up.  He invited double into the hole."

Well, what do you think I'm saying, he did what he was hoping to do?

 

[Tom Zeni]

Phil stated for the record that he was an idiot, and he didn't know what he was thinking. It's good to know some can reach that intersanctum and explain it all to us.

Bones stated the thinking on the 4 wood option in a phantom 20mph wind. But he and/or Phil never discussed/thought of a one putt option if the 4 wood did go short and into the rough - you know, as did Payne Stewart in beating Phil on the 18th hole, and David Toms in beating Phil on the 18th hole.

[Jim Nugent]

Mark Cannizarro was being a typical New York homer and blasting Mongomerie instead of Mickleson.  Not exactly balanced journalism nor an honest apprasial.

Mickleson made mistake after mistake all day and in the end he kept making mistakes.  Monty made one, tried hard to tie or win and failed.

Now he's kicking the Euro Tour's ass this weekend in Scotland because he figures, "I can still do this - win my major". Mickleson is off whimpering somewhere.

Mickleson tought us yet another lesson we all should learn from wating the "Open that no one was enjoying" (as another thread implied) - In addition to not compounding mistakes, losing a tone-a-mint not winning it and all that

Under the worst of stresses, we will revert to our most basic stupid mistakes (For Phil - too aggressive, I can do teh shot of the century immediately after a major screw up).  We should have a plan. Something to go to when we're just about to pee our pants. A 3/4 swing, a controlled pull, a push fade we can predict - whatever, but whatever we can make work when we must.

Monty tried was indecicive and then tried too hard in the heat of things, Lefty melted down into the same old Phil - a hubristic denial-laden do-do without a proverbial paddle or clue.

Props to Monty and whistles to Mickleson.
 

Noble Monty and clueless Phil?

Well, somehow Phil has won three majors, and Monty none.  Without a clue, making "mistake after mistake", Phil came to the last hole of the U.S. Open in the lead.  

None of us still knows exactly what Phil faced on his 2nd shot.  Did he make a reckless play that was too aggressive?  Maybe.  I don't have enough information yet to make that call.  Until someone goes to the exact spot Phil was, and can report back to us on the precise options Phil had, condemning him is jumping the gun just a little.  

Monty made more than one mistake.  Besides doubling the last hole, he made two bogeys on the back.  He played the final nine 3 over.  I don't know where you come up with the idea Monty played hard and Phil melted.  Phil gave an incredible performance on a day when his swing sucked and he couldn't find the fairway with his 4-iron.  On the last hole, Monty is in the middle of the fairway, 170 yards from the pin, yet makes double.  How do you not call that a meltdown?  It's as big a meltdown as Arnie in the 1961 Masters.    

Playing the week after.  Tiger almost never does.  Jack almost never did.  Seems like a red herring.  

I also note that Monty has fallen under the cheating cloud, more than once I believe.  Whether or not it was intentional, he absolutely positively improved his lie in that Asian tournament last year.  When play was suspended, he had a real hard stance in a bunker.  When they started up again the next day, he gave himself a real easy stance.  Many pro's say he should have been disqualifited.  Instead, his finish there let him squeak into the U.S. Open at Pinehurst.  I remember a thread here a while back that said Monty continues to take architectural credit for a course he never even saw till after it was done.

I'll take Phil as a better role model.  

 
 

[Jim Nugent]

Just saw more more examples of "heroic" behavior by Monty at WFW.  This is from scotsman.com, in an article titled "Monty still miles off course in addressing manners":

"Adding to his already lengthy list of crass and boorish behaviour over the years, Monty managed, in less than half an hour, to alienate the gallery around the 17th tee, make unwarranted physical contact with a New York state trooper and offend the United States Golf Association. This made three mean feats and no mean feat, if you know what I mean.

Witnessed first hand by two fellow Scots, Monty was disturbed by a child while over his drive on the 17th tee. After treating the youngster to one of his patented, prolonged glares, he missed the fairway, picked up his tee, walked a couple of paces, then - though he has since denied the following - viciously hurled the tee at his 'tormentor.' It missed, only just.

This provoked understandable outrage among many spectators. "That's why you don't get our support," yelled more than one.

The altercation with the trooper occurred as the officer escorted the Mickelson family to the 18th green for a prize-giving that Monty decided he could happily skip - hence the USGA's disappointment. At first, the incident was reported as a "shove" from Monty, later downgraded to a "collision", presumably when his agents, International Management Group, sent their spin-doctors into action. Sadly, some journalists, no matter what Monty gets up to on the course, are willing to forego their professional credibility, take on the role of apologists and downplay any controversy. It is amazing what the promise of some freelance work or a future exclusive interview will do."

http://sport.scotsman.com/golf.cfm?id=928012006

 

[Tom Zeni]

None of us still knows exactly what Phil faced on his 2nd shot.  

We don't? It's been shown and dissected from every angle with the exception of what the grass beneath Phil's feet was thinking.  

I'm sure the Home and Garden channel will have that perspective in an upcoming 2 hour special where they interview the 419 pencross rye and how the oak tree felt when Phil grazed it's bark.
 

[Bruceski]

There is and was no "Monday morning quarterbacking" on Phil's stupid play. Johnny Miller explicitly was decrying Phil's choices before every shot on the 18th, and the rest of America had REALTIME perspective into the "idiotic" decision-making of golf's greatest underachiever of his generation. Thankfully, we have Miller to tell it like it is -- unlike most other apologists in the media.

This loss was akin to that female 20 year old "idiot" in the Winter Olympics in Turin this year who decided to showboat 100 yds from the snowboarding finish line: an arrogantly bad choice when the game is on the line.

Ogilvy won because he demonstrated the greatest competence in all aspects of the game -- especially the mental component. Kudos to the USGA for yearly creating an event that is the truest assessment of golf masterliness, and rewards not only solid execution but also levelheaded thinking. For those of you who gripe that the US Open setup removes the decision-making component of golf go rewind your recording of the last 30 minutes of this championship.

[Tom Zeni]

Bruce,

Hear! Hear! I second that emotion!

[Jim Nugent]

None of us still knows exactly what Phil faced on his 2nd shot.  

We don't? It's been shown and dissected from every angle with the exception of what the grass beneath Phil's feet was thinking.  

I'm sure the Home and Garden channel will have that perspective in an upcoming 2 hour special where they interview the 419 pencross rye and how the oak tree felt when Phil grazed it's bark.
 

Tom -- I.M., if you can, when H&G runs that special.  I'll definitely want to tune in.  

Perhaps when I said "we", I should say "I".  I don't know how much Phil had to slice the ball to reach the green.  If he did not slice it -- it went straight -- or he didn't slice enough, I don't know where it would have ended up.  I don't know how much margin of error he had.  I don't know how far down the fairway he could have gotten with a pitch or punch.  Were recovery shots like that safe, easy -- or challenging too?  

How did his lie affect his choice?  Can Phil usually slice on command?  Did the shot he tried fit his game?  

How tall is the tree that blocked his path?  How far from it was he?  Was it higher or lower than Phil?  Could he have hit something over it -- if so, what, and what would that have left him?  

I've heard all sorts of dissections.  But all from afar, and none that answer the key questions.  Like I say, maybe it's just me.  But seems like many others have asked -- pleaded -- for some hard facts, and they have not been forthcoming.

If you know the answers, by all means tell me.  

[Tom Zeni]

Jim,

I'll be checking my local listings for the H&G special that will surely draw more viewers than the American Idol final.

Not an hour after the final putt at the Open than The Golf Channel had Frank Nobilo at the spot of Phil's 2nd shot on 18. The camera behind, and commentary, showed what Phil was seeing. A Large tree in front, and a larger tree to the right of the first- some 40 yds away. According to the larger Oak tree, Phil had no shot - he over cooked it, and grazed it's bark.

Word is that the Oak is asking for equal time. X-Rays of it's cambium layer have proven negative, but of course, Dr. Phil wants to see how the hardwood is coping with all the notiriety.  Undisclosed sources from Home and Garden say some of the tree's leaves may be sold on Ebay. Fall colors will be sold separately.

[Matt_Sullivan]

Jim

My buddy (a 4hcp lefty who cuts the ball!) was standing pretty much right behind Phil when he hit that fateful second shot. He said the shot was a tough one -- under the first tree and over the second, big cut -- but not impossible. Lie was fine for the shot required. He said Phil hit a block cut (as he had done of 18 tee) with the ball starting further left than he was looking and cutting further into the tree.

Just  a bad shot, made worse by the fact that missing the green right (ie ending about where Monty did) was by far the better miss and could have been achieved from where he was, albeit with a cut.


Matt

[JR Potts]

Again I would like to retract my post-round support of Mickelson.  Today, I played golf with the caddy for one of the top ten players in the world.  I asked him about 18 at Winged Foot.  The caddy, whose man is one of the shorter hitters, said that his guy could bunt three wood off of the tee and still have at least a 5 iron into the green.  He opined that Mickelson's driver selection was terrible....since he was there, and I was not, I will side with him and retract my prior support of Mickelson - regardless of how ardent of a supporter I once was.  

[Craig Sweet]

Ryan...Bones made the argument that Phil hits 4 wood about 240 yards, and with the wind he would have been lucky to hit it 220 on 18...

I played yesterday with a scrawny little guy, a scratch golfer, and he hit 5 wood off a tee twice in excess of 250 yards....

I find Bone's claim of no length off the tee hard to swallow.

[JR Potts]

I now agree.

[Tom Zeni]

If anyone watched the telecast or the replay - there was NO FREAKING WIND!

This is like Bones telling us there were WMD's on 18 and everyone believing him. Wind? What wind? 90 freaking degrees, with a 20 mph wind? Where were they playing, the Mojave Desert? 90* and 20mph winds are not compatible inland in the NE, and the last I looked they weren't playing at Kiawah.

So we agree. Phil and Bones were both idiots. Nuff said.

[Jim Nugent]

Matt -- that clears up part of my confusion.  Did your friend tell you what other choices Phil could have made?  What kind of "safe" play could he make back to the fairway?  Any way to go over the trees?  How badly did Phil hit his 2nd shot to end up where he did?

Ryan -- Phil didn't have 3-wood, only 4-wood.  Were his chances much greater to find fairway with that club?  Remember he missed fairway a few holes earlier with 4-iron.  He probably felt as comfortable with driver as he did the 4-wood.  And if he misses with the 4-wood, not only is he in the rough or trees, he is 30 to 50 yards back.  

I wonder if what the caddy said was entirely accurate, too.  Monty  is not a short hitter.  Yet after a perfect drive he had six-iron into the green.  (Or should have, anyway.)  

I'm thinking if Phil hits a good 4-wood off the tee, he has 4-iron or even 3-iron to the green.  Why give up 3 or 4 clubs on your second, when you feel just as confident hitting driver off the tee?

[Matt_Sullivan]

Jim

Apparently, back on the fairway was possible but it would have been difficult to advance it very far down the fairway, so it would have been more than 150 (maybe 170) to the flag.

Difficult/Impossible to go over directly because of a tree in front that he had to go under. Second shot was poor because he missed one of the places he really couldn't afford to miss, ie left and into the tree. My buddy said it looked like a push cut -- ie started left of where he was looking and cutting.

FWIW, my buddy (a good golfer with a habit of driving it long and crooked and so used to these type of situations!) thought the shot could definitely be pulled off. A tough shot but not a ridiculous one.

[Jim Nugent]

Another question: how well did the 2nd shot fit Phil's swing and game?  I remember one year Couples came to the 72nd hole of the Players at Sawgrass.  Leading by two, if I recall.  Pushed his drive behind some trees.  No way to hit directly at the green.  

He hit a shot that left the announcers speechless.  He started the ball way out over the water, and hit a huge slice.  In fact, he over-cooked his shot.  The ball ended up on the right fringe, about 50 feet from the pin.  He two-putted for the win.

Afterwards they asked him about that shot.  Fred said he felt completely comfortable and confident.  If it had required a hook, he wouldn't have tried it.  But "I can slice it with the best of them," he said.  The shot fit his game.

How hard or easy was the shot Phil tried, for his game?

[Tom Zeni]

Phil stated after the Open that the "Slice" is his bread and butter shot. However, if there is no shot, you can't produce one. And I'm sure Vegas would back me up with improbable odds.

And if hPhil did pull off the miraculous, and I doubt in 10 attempts you could do it more than once, chances are, that shot doesn't find the green. Hell, his 3rd shot, with a better overall lie and angle, found the bunker. So what do we have?

At best, a one putt chance for par.

The more I consider it, the more brain dead Phil and Bones had to be.