The Amateur Championship

[Tom Huckaby]

JV - thanks for the clarification re volunteers.  I just have talked to a few who said that it's a VERY long day of work, and they are usually happy they don't have to wait around for playoffs.  But yeah, more would likely find it fun.  These rules guys are an odd lot.

 

And you make a great point re players leaving, as well....

I still think the over-riding reason playoffs wouldn't be done - or at least not guaranteed - is because access to the course can't be guaranteed.  Thus to me the NCGA instruction seems very wise... That is, we do a playoff if we can, but uif not, it's USGA card matching.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn:

You want to live in a perfect world; well, so do I.  I think our difference is I accept the world's imperfections a bit more readily than you do.

 

Yes, in the perfect world, all ties would be settled by playoffs.  I just believe I did give you some very good reasons for tolerating this imperfection, at least how things are done here in NCGA world.  

One final thing:  all competitors know the tie-breaking methods going in - it's always there on the information sheet they get.  If they don't like it, they do not have to play.

TH
 

You certainly did supply some quality explanations for toleration of this imperfection.

[JohnV]

Course access is not usually an issue.  We use a public course for one of our US Open Local Qualifiers every year and they have leagues which go out about the time we finish.  It has never been a problem.  We find a couple of holes that are not in use and have the playoff.  It sometimes means we can't tell the players what holes the playoff will be on until just before we go, but we work it out with everyone concerned.

By the way, the USGA requires playoffs for their qualifiers for both the final spot and alternates.  If the players were not present, the order is decided by lot.  They prohibit the matching of scorecards.

[Glenn Spencer]

JV - thanks for the clarification re volunteers.  I just have talked to a few who said that it's a VERY long day of work, and they are usually happy they don't have to wait around for playoffs.  But yeah, more would likely find it fun.  These rules guys are an odd lot.

 

And you make a great point re players leaving, as well....

I still think the over-riding reason playoffs wouldn't be done - or at least not guaranteed - is because access to the course can't be guaranteed.  Thus to me the NCGA instruction seems very wise... That is, we do a playoff if we can, but uif not, it's USGA card matching.

TH

I think John supplied us with some good reasons. Before the tournament, I would say that if I can't make the playoff, it is just tough luck and those college kids are lucky they don't have lives. After 'losing' a scorecard playoff, I would just say that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of, I didn't lose anything, let's play and WAY,WAY WORSE, I would not want the spot that way. So  the public golfers wouldn't make room for the playoff or the course wouldn't? The golfers would, I have seen it, just write it in the contract with the course. Most courses would jsut ask the people to relax and the let the playoff commence. No?

[JohnV]

Tom makes an important point.  Playing in a tournament is not a right, it is a choice made by the player.  If he doesn't like the way it is run, he can go somewhere else and play in another event, there are plenty around.

As Steve Elkington found out recently when he showed up at a US Open qualifier wearing metal spikes which were not allowed at that site (as stated on the entry form), when you sign the entry, you agree to abide by the rules stated.  That is why it is important for all those rules and conditions of the competition to be there.

[Tom Huckaby]

JV:

There's a bit more at stake in USGA events and they also would hopefully have a bit more control of course access.  I would hope to God they never use card-matching.

As for finding space to do a playoff, well... I'd guess it's not often a problem here either.  But I also know pretty well the courses Andrew did his qualifier at, and they are all generally packed dawn to dust.  It sure doesn't surprise me the committee would have chosen to do card-matching that day.  It also doesn't surprise me at all they use that standard language in their instructions.

Does your association guarantee playoffs? That is, do the instructions players get state all ties will be settled by playoffs?

If so, then more power to you.  I just continue to believe that in NorCal reality, the NCGA is handling this as they should.



Glenn - re your query about if paying customers would give way to allow a playoff, well... that MIGHT happen, might not.  I have zero doubt that in Andrew's situation, the Committee just didn't want to count on it.  These are really packed public courses.  You kinda have to live here to understand it.  JV has, and I'm sure does understand.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Course access is not usually an issue.  We use a public course for one of our US Open Local Qualifiers every year and they have leagues which go out about the time we finish.  It has never been a problem.  We find a couple of holes that are not in use and have the playoff.  It sometimes means we can't tell the players what holes the playoff will be on until just before we go, but we work it out with everyone concerned.

By the way, the USGA requires playoffs for their qualifiers for both the final spot and alternates.  If the players were not present, the order is decided by lot.  They prohibit the matching of scorecards.

Not knowing the hole is not of much concern, I wouldn't think. If someone complained about that, they are just being a jerk. If you can't make it, you know that going in and you must accept your fate, easy to get over. Scorecard playoffs? Not easy to get over. At least if you can't make the playoff, you are not left wondering, What if I didn't double the #1 handicap hole? I could have won the whole thing.

[JohnV]

Tom, we always state that any playoffs will begin immediately after the completion of play on the Notice to the Competitors handed out on the first tee.

[Glenn Spencer]

JV:

There's a bit more at stake in USGA events and they also would hopefully have a bit more control of course access.  I would hope to God they never use card-matching.

As for finding space to do a playoff, well... I'd guess it's not often a problem here either.  But I also know pretty well the courses Andrew did his qualifier at, and they are all generally packed dawn to dust.  It sure doesn't surprise me the committee would have chosen to do card-matching that day.  It also doesn't surprise me at all they use that standard language in their instructions.

Does your association guarantee playoffs? That is, do the instructions players get state all ties will be settled by playoffs?

If so, then more power to you.  I just continue to believe that in NorCal reality, the NCGA is handling this as they should.



Glenn - re your query about if paying customers would give way to allow a playoff, well... that MIGHT happen, might not.  I have zero doubt that in Andrew's situation, the Committee just didn't want to count on it.  These are really packed public courses.  You kinda have to live here to understand it.  JV has, and I'm sure does understand.

TH

TH,

You say that you would hope to God that the USGA would not go to matching scores, I feel the same. How, then is it OK for the NCGA? To some golfers that is their zenith, others it is the US Amateur, both should be conducted seriously.

[Tom Huckaby]

JV - well, as I say, more power to you.  I'm guessing you don't have the insanely crowed public course issues that the NCGA does.

I just checked and Andrew did the qualifier in question at Monarch Bay.  Good lord, when we did the course rating there, we were supposed to have noon tee times for the playing part, and we didn't start until 2pm due to screw ups and an overpacked course.  This confirms things:  if I'm on the committee there, no way do I guarantee playoffs.  I try my best, as they likely did, but I for sure resort to card-matching.  That place is a zoo, especially near twilight when the rates go down.

In any case, Andrew also didn't need a playoff... 4 guys shot 76 and all made it.  The 77s were alternates.

The sanctity of the NCGA is preserved.  

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

JV - well, as I say, more power to you.  I'm guessing you don't have the insanely crowed public course issues that the NCGA does.

I just checked and Andrew did the qualifier in question at Monarch Bay.  Good lord, when we did the course rating there, we were supposed to have noon tee times for the playing part, and we didn't start until 2pm due to screw ups and an overpacked course.  This confirms things:  if I'm on the committee there, no way do I guarantee playoffs.  I try my best, as they likely did, but I for sure resort to card-matching.  That place is a zoo, especially near twilight when the rates go down.

In any case, Andrew also didn't need a playoff... 4 guys shot 76 and all made it.  The 77s were alternates.

The sanctity of the NCGA is preserved.  

TH

6 AM, the next morning, we will see you on the tee boys. One official per 4 players, first group off. head pro says of course you can.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:

The USGA just plain doesn't have the issues that the NCGA does.  For a USGA event, they can dictate terms.  I really don't think the NCGA has close to this power.  The fact we are doing qualifiers on these packed public courses says all that needs to be said... I'm sure the NCGA appreciates the access - and I know competitors don't pay close to full green fees, so the courses are doing us a favor... Going beyond that and demanding more optional space to allow for playoffs FOR SURE is just not something I see might happen.  The USGA can probably do that, but then again most of their qualifiers take place at private clubs.

Look, this is silly.  NCGA events are conducted VERY seriously, and are VERY well-run.  The fact they concede to realities at times, well... I guess that's not enough for you, and I do wish I could live in your perfect world, but sadly, I don't.  Remember, they always try to do playoffs, they just don't guarantee such will occur.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

JV - well, as I say, more power to you.  I'm guessing you don't have the insanely crowed public course issues that the NCGA does.

I just checked and Andrew did the qualifier in question at Monarch Bay.  Good lord, when we did the course rating there, we were supposed to have noon tee times for the playing part, and we didn't start until 2pm due to screw ups and an overpacked course.  This confirms things:  if I'm on the committee there, no way do I guarantee playoffs.  I try my best, as they likely did, but I for sure resort to card-matching.  That place is a zoo, especially near twilight when the rates go down.

In any case, Andrew also didn't need a playoff... 4 guys shot 76 and all made it.  The 77s were alternates.

The sanctity of the NCGA is preserved.  

TH

6 AM, the next morning, we will see you on the tee boys. One official per 4 players, first group off. head pro says of course you can.

Ridiculous.  Make everone come back the next day?  Please.  These are on weekdays, people have lives.

You do live in one cool fantasy world....

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn:

The USGA just plain doesn't have the issues that the NCGA does.  For a USGA event, they can dictate terms.  I really don't think the NCGA has close to this power.  The fact we are doing qualifiers on these packed public courses says all that needs to be said... I'm sure the NCGA appreciates the access - and I know competitors don't pay close to full green fees, so the courses are doing us a favor... Going beyond that and demanding more optional space to allow for playoffs FOR SURE is just not something I see might happen.  The USGA can probably do that, but then again most of their qualifiers take place at private clubs.

Look, this is silly.  NCGA events are conducted VERY seriously, and are VERY well-run.  The fact they concede to realities at times, well... I guess that's not enough for you, and I do wish I could live in your perfect world, but sadly, I don't.  Remember, they always try to do playoffs, they just don't guarantee such will occur.

TH

It is silly, I never brought up the NCGA, I was talking about the R&A. Regional golf associations can do whatever the hell they want. I couldn't care less. I just think it is a shame and it gives the event a black mark.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn - I would agree the R&A method described in this thread is pretty odd.  But I also wouldn't question a ruling body that has about 150 years of experience doing this kinda thing.  If that's the way they want to do it, then good for them.

I just did think your comment was directed at NCGA.  We obviously have quite different realities than does the non-American world's governing body of golf.

 

[Glenn Spencer]

JV - well, as I say, more power to you.  I'm guessing you don't have the insanely crowed public course issues that the NCGA does.

I just checked and Andrew did the qualifier in question at Monarch Bay.  Good lord, when we did the course rating there, we were supposed to have noon tee times for the playing part, and we didn't start until 2pm due to screw ups and an overpacked course.  This confirms things:  if I'm on the committee there, no way do I guarantee playoffs.  I try my best, as they likely did, but I for sure resort to card-matching.  That place is a zoo, especially near twilight when the rates go down.

In any case, Andrew also didn't need a playoff... 4 guys shot 76 and all made it.  The 77s were alternates.

The sanctity of the NCGA is preserved.  

TH

6 AM, the next morning, we will see you on the tee boys. One official per 4 players, first group off. head pro says of course you can.

Ridiculous.  Make everone come back the next day?  Please.  These are on weekdays, people have lives.

You do live in one cool fantasy world....

Hey, its like I said, either I can make it or I can't but don't tell me I 'lost' in a scorecard playoff. I have had to come back the next day on at least three different occasions, some people showe up and some didn't. At least this way the player has the choice.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:

Again, it's fine for the perfect world.

NorCal at least is anything but perfect.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn - I would agree the R&A method described in this thread is pretty odd.  But I also wouldn't question a ruling body that has about 150 years of experience doing this kinda thing.  If that's the way they want to do it, then good for them.

I just did think your comment was directed at NCGA.  We obviously have quite different realities than does the non-American world's governing body of golf.

 

Yes, after about 2 pages, I did say, why is it OK for the NCGA and not the USGA. That was directed at all associations not just the NCGA. To me, John's earlier post says it all, the USGA mandates playoffs for spots and I think that shoulf go for every golf tournament of consequence, IMO the NCGA Stroke Play at Poppy Hills does not qualify as a tournament of consequence if they are using this format, that is all. Obviously, they are free to run it how they want to. More power to them! The only way stupid things get changed is when someone says that they are stupid and they get looked at. Clay Ogden is a great example of why such practices are stupid, he could have been home sitting on his couch while Michelle Wie pounded her quarterfinal opponent and went on to win a spot in the Masters.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:

I will remind you again that the world is imperfect, and each situation has its own realities.  Yes, NCGA events can be more important to some players than the Masters is to Tiger Woods.  But that doesn't mean the NCGA can change the realities they face to accomodate such.

Is it not enough that they try their best?  Because I know they really do.

As for the R&A, I have no clue what their issues are, I just again wouldn't want to question them.  I know you have no such reticence.  Me, if I were playing in British Am I'd just make damn sure I don't end up in any ties.

 

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn:

I will remind you again that the world is imperfect, and each situation has its own realities.  Yes, NCGA events can be more important to some players than the Masters is to Tiger Woods.  But that doesn't mean the NCGA can change the realities they face to accomodate such.

Is it not enough that they try their best?  Because I know they really do.

As for the R&A, I have no clue what their issues are, I just again wouldn't want to question them.  I know you have no such reticence.  Me, if I were playing in British Am I'd just make damn sure I don't end up in any ties.

 

Yes, Tom I understand that the NCGA has more things that they have to consider and I think a few pages ago I said that I thought they were giving a pretty decent effort. They are not to blame. Remember though, it is the British Mid-Am not the Amateur that has this practice. Which is even more puzzling!! I would not hesitate to question them, it must come from my beloved grandmother who one more than a few occasions has proclaimed that there are some lucky people that she was not born black.

[Glenn Spencer]

Yes, at least they are trying to do what they can. Clearly the NCGA is not in the same boat as the R&A. I am not upset with the NCGA anymore, but why not just let all the ties in if you can't settle it in a just manner? I still say, no matter the extenuating circumstances, one 77 should not be going home while another 77 celebrates without golf shots being hit.

Here is the post that I was referring to, not quite the ringing endorsement I had remembered, but I did acknowledge that they were doing their best.

[Tom Huckaby]

Aha.  I just got confused.  You now want to allow for different terms for a Tournament of Consequence.  Before, you were saying all tournaments should aspire to the USGA standard.  If you have indeed moved away from that and conceded that the NCGA is doing the best it can, then that is fine with me.  It is certainly reality that national championships would have different standards than local competitions.

So now as for how the R&A does things in their Mid-Am, well what the hell, they're just learning there.  That event is pretty darn new to them, no?  Here's hoping they get over the growing pains and figure out how to do this more equitably.

BTW, it's also entirely possible they have course access issues even for that... do they really get the run of the club for the Mid-Am?  I really don't think they consider that a Tournament of Consequence, not yet anyway.  And even if they do, it's very possible the clubs allowing play for such do not.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Not to be argumentative, but is it outlandish to think that the pro could simply sell the greens fee for that one day encompassing a few groups and say please be advised that you round may be interrupted by 20 minutes for a playoff in the NCGA event that is going on out here. What kind of jerk is not going to say, Sure I understand that?

[JohnV]

Glenn:

The USGA just plain doesn't have the issues that the NCGA does.  For a USGA event, they can dictate terms.  

USGA Qualifiers are run by a local USGA committee member or the local association.  We have no more or less power with their events than with our own, other than the fact that the clubs think it is cool to be having a USGA qualifier.

We make sure that we are on good terms with the Pro at the course and that usually takes care of most issues.  We're flexible and they're flexible.  And, most golfers will stand aside for one or even two groups to play a playoff and get out of their way.  They usually think it is kind of cool.

We have one site where the Pro has been known to go up to a group and give them free passes for another round if they will let us sneak in front of them for a playoff.

[Glenn Spencer]

Aha.  I just got confused.  You now want to allow for different terms for a Tournament of Consequence.  Before, you were saying all tournaments should aspire to the USGA standard.  If you have indeed moved away from that and conceded that the NCGA is doing the best it can, then that is fine with me.  It is certainly reality that national championships would have different standards than local competitions.

So now as for how the R&A does things in their Mid-Am, well what the hell, they're just learning there.  That event is pretty darn new to them, no?  Here's hoping they get over the growing pains and figure out how to do this more equitably.

BTW, it's also entirely possible they have course access issues even for that... do they really get the run of the club for the Mid-Am?  I really don't think they consider that a Tournament of Consequence, not yet anyway.  And even if they do, it's very possible the clubs allowing play for such do not.

TH

Yes, I would have thought that the NCGA event wanted to be taken seriously as a tournament of consequence. If not, or they can't do it, that is fine. I have no qualms with that, you can only do what you can, but IMO you are not running a golf tournament of consequence with scorecard playoffs that can ELIMINATE someone. I must be seriously misinformed about the MID-Am in Britain, I jsut assumed that it was a big tournament and one that the winner was at least exempted into the British Amateur. The US Mid-Am rose to prominence pretty quickly, I would assume that it was assisted by not having crazy rules like the British. If they have the course for at least 5 daysm Iam assuming the lack of a playoff would not come down to access problems. If so, then make the field 32 and not 64, just don't have a scorecard playoff.