The Amateur Championship

[Glenn Spencer]

John,

A chip-off? Where do you think a chip-off stands against a scorecard playoff? Honestly, John is stuff like this that makes me ill and that is why I got so mad last year at the Publinx, I was left wondering, What next? a scorecard playoff? little did I know. The question I have is, Why even bother having the event if you don't have 'time' to have a playoff? I wonder what the scene is like each and every year.There has to be some serious fireworks I promise that I wouldn't be asked back if I 'lost' a scorecard playoff.



Yes, the NCGA Stroke Play Championship is not on the Major of Amateurs list, but I am sure that it is important to the people playing and the area. I would call this a 'real' enough tournament that shouldn't be pulling these kind of stunts. It is really only 'acceptable' at the club events and even that is pushing it. Once you pay an entry fee, this nonsense should be completely avoided. Once you have an association running the tournament, this is unacceptable. It is hard to believe that grown men think this an acceptable way of distinguishing athletes in competition.

[JESII]

Two matches on that first day must be quite an adventure.

32 matches at 8 minute intervals = 256 minutes = 4 hours 16 minutes.

7:00 am start for first match means 11:16 tee time for last match.

11:16 played in 3:30 gets us to 2:46 when they get off the course.

Next match starts at 3:30 pm and finishes by about 7:00 pm.

This is where I thought the problem would be, looks doable so long as the pace of play keeps up. Twosomes at matchplay should be quick, but one player can wrench it all as you know JVB.

[AndrewB]

Chip-off, heh.  That reminds me of the 2000 Met Amateur (conducted by the MGA, another fine golf association).  We were playing off for medalist and after three holes of a playoff (one, two, and nine East at Ridgewood CC) all three of us had made pars.  The sun was getting low and they asked us whether we wanted to continue or have, say, a chip-off.  Everyone was tired after playing 39 holes already and wanted to get in, but I was in shock, and said, "Sorry, but this isn't the Merrill-Lynch Shootout, I think we should keep playing"  (It didn't help that I had just missed a short one for birdie).

So, on we went and all of us made pars on one and two again.  Before we teed of on nine the official said we would have no more sunlight after this hole (it was already pushing it) and have to do a chip-off if it wasn't decided at that point.  Luckily for me, I ended up holing a seven iron approach shot for a two to win the playoff.  It was so dark we couldn't see the ball go in, but we did hear a shout or two and the official up by the green sent word over the radio.  Let's just say I'm glad we didn't make it to the chip-off ...

[Glenn Spencer]

Andrew,

A strange ste of circumstances yes, but being the medalist or the no.1 seed or pushed back to the 3 seed by chip-off does not compare to being eliminated from the tournament by scorecard. The officials let you go out there and try it, the medalist is just something nice to be called. I don't have too much issue with the MGA here, in fact none. The R&A is a different matter.

[JohnV]

Two matches on that first day must be quite an adventure.

32 matches at 8 minute intervals = 256 minutes = 4 hours 16 minutes.

7:00 am start for first match means 11:16 tee time for last match.

11:16 played in 3:30 gets us to 2:46 when they get off the course.

Next match starts at 3:30 pm and finishes by about 7:00 pm.

This is where I thought the problem would be, looks doable so long as the pace of play keeps up. Twosomes at matchplay should be quick, but one player can wrench it all as you know JVB.

Actually, 4 hours and 8 minutes.  32 matches means 31 intervals.  The first match starts at 7:00 so the last one starts at 11:08.  Assuming 3:30, the first match finishes at 10:30 and the last at 2:38.  I'd give them 30 minutes for a bite to eat and they tee off at 3:08, finishing around 6:38.  No problem in August in the UK.

Just hope the last matches don't go extra holes in the morning or the evening or it could get touchy.  If so, you finish them the next day and then they go out for their next match.  

Since they are the last matches, they will be the last ones the next day also.  The second day they probably start the third round a little later.  Get the guys who have to finish out around 7.  Start the third round around 8 and the final group would go at 8:56 so you've got nearly 2 hours to finish that last match.

It would be easy to catch up by the start of the third round.

We can't do two rounds at the US Mid-AM on the first day because we sometimes play in October, but in August it should be ok.  Also, since we usually do our playoff the morning of the first matches and because of that, hold the medalist for the last match of the day, he couldn't turn around to get out first in the second round (and possibly even the third round).

[Glenn Spencer]

I guess I am not understanding the need to rush things. Why not secure the course for another day? If that is not possible then clearly this 'tournament' needs to go down to 32 and keep things completely on the up and up. This scorecard stuff is unacceptable.

[JESII]

Now the question is, why not run the British Mid-Am from a qualifier / playoff / order of play perspective, just like the US Am? Is it the concern of competitors playing a few playoff holes early and then potentially two matches all in the same day? As a player I would probably prefer that opportunity to losing out in a match of cards. I know these organizations put a great deal of thought into their formulas, and are comprised of smart, creative people but this seems like a miscue to me.

[AndrewB]

Glenn,

A strange ste of circumstances yes, but being the medalist or the no.1 seed or pushed back to the 3 seed by chip-off does not compare to being eliminated from the tournament by scorecard. The officials let you go out there and try it, the medalist is just something nice to be called. I don't have too much issue with the MGA here, in fact none. The R&A is a different matter.

Yes, you have a very good point.  I don't think the MGA's decisions were bad here at all.  Their stance seemed to be if anyone wanted to keep playing, they would, but they gave us the opportunity to decide it more quickly given that we had all qualified, already had a very long day, and had early tee times in the morning.  I got the feeling the other guys wanted to do the chip off, but it just didn't seem right to me.

I guess I wasn't comparing this to the R&A or OGA Executive Director's decisions as much as just finding a reason to tell that story, since it's one I personally enjoy (for obvious reasons).

[Glenn Spencer]

Andrew,

I just read the Pebble story and congrats for what was a fine tournament for most!!! Sometimes you just run into a gun, but it sounded like he would have had all he could handle if you had the putter going, he did anyway really. You will get them next time!! I am glad that you found an excuse to tell that story, because I think it illustrates the commitment that the MGA was showing to you guys as players. They were well aware that you all wanted to settle the issue like men and they gave you every opportunity to do that, that the sun would allow. It is a great comparision. The R&A and the OGA need to show this kind of commitment to the players that are putting in all the time and practice to compete in their events, especially the R&A. The British Mid-Am is pretty high level golf and I still can't believe that more effort is not taken.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'm going to wade in here and defend my beloved NCGA, for which I am a course rating committeeman.

Glenn, re this:

Yes, the NCGA Stroke Play Championship is not on the Major of Amateurs list, but I am sure that it is important to the people playing and the area. I would call this a 'real' enough tournament that shouldn't be pulling these kind of stunts. It is really only 'acceptable' at the club events and even that is pushing it. Once you pay an entry fee, this nonsense should be completely avoided. Once you have an association running the tournament, this is unacceptable. It is hard to believe that grown men think this an acceptable way of distinguishing athletes in competition.

Just note this was one of the QUALIFIERS for the event, not the event proper.  The event proper most definitely has a playoff to decide the champion.  But the qualifiers do not - and it's made very clear in the entry how ties for the last spots are decided.  

Please remember these events get a LOT of entries, and our association covers a huge geographic area.  The NCGA ran six qualifying events that day... each of which requires a LOT of effort by unpaid volunteers.  If the answer is not doing playoffs so these guys can actually get home in 12 hours instead of 14, well.. I think the competitors will live.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Now the question is, why not run the British Mid-Am from a qualifier / playoff / order of play perspective, just like the US Am? Is it the concern of competitors playing a few playoff holes early and then potentially two matches all in the same day? As a player I would probably prefer that opportunity to losing out in a match of cards. I know these organizations put a great deal of thought into their formulas, and are comprised of smart, creative people but this seems like a miscue to me.

JES,

Probably prefer the opportunity? I am sure that you absolutely would!!! Imagine, playing 35 good holes and being safe and then making a silly mistake and falling into a playoff, then being told that you are gone because you shot 38 on the back nine, just imagine how that would actually feel? I think you would rather play 100 holes the next day as opposed to slamming the trunk, when the guy who shot 37 on the back is on top of the world. I can think of nothing worse that can happen to a good competitive golfer.

[JESII]

Glenn,

Don't take my words so literally. Why would I have written that post if I was at all ambivalent? Down boy, take a look at who's on your side here.

[Glenn Spencer]

I'm going to wade in here and defend my beloved NCGA, for which I am a course rating committeeman.

Glenn, re this:

Yes, the NCGA Stroke Play Championship is not on the Major of Amateurs list, but I am sure that it is important to the people playing and the area. I would call this a 'real' enough tournament that shouldn't be pulling these kind of stunts. It is really only 'acceptable' at the club events and even that is pushing it. Once you pay an entry fee, this nonsense should be completely avoided. Once you have an association running the tournament, this is unacceptable. It is hard to believe that grown men think this an acceptable way of distinguishing athletes in competition.

Just note this was one of the QUALIFIERS for the event, not the event proper.  The event proper most definitely has a playoff to decide the champion.  But the qualifiers do not - and it's made very clear in the entry how ties for the last spots are decided.  

Please remember these events get a LOT of entries, and our association covers a huge geographic area.  The NCGA ran six qualifying events that day... each of which requires a LOT of effort by unpaid volunteers.  If the answer is not doing playoffs so these guys can actually get home in 12 hours instead of 14, well.. I think the competitors will live.

TH

TH,

Let me see if I have this somewhat correct. The guys qualify at some local muni or little country club and they are rewarded with playing at one of the finer clubs in the area or in that particular region, potentially one of the finest courses in the country? Is that about right or no? The volunteers are giving up their day and should not be an issue, some of these golfers have given their entire summer to be competitive.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

Don't take my words so literally. Why would I have written that post if I was at all ambivalent? Down boy, take a look at who's on your side here.

Absolutely, this internet is tough, I was just throwing you in there with the competitors and just saying, 'Imagine how that would feel' Nothing I wrote there was meant negatively toward you at all. It was poorly written, I guess.

[AndrewB]

Tom,

I'm going to wade in here and defend my beloved NCGA, for which I am a course rating committeeman.

Thanks for your comments on this.  I didn't mean to setup the NCGA for getting knocked since I think it's probably the best regional golf association I've seen.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:

That's not exactly how it goes.  The qualifiers are played are pretty nice courses also.  For the one Andrew referenced, they were at six pretty nice public courses:

Blackhorse (Fort Ord)
Bodega Harbor GL
Monarch Bay
Reserve at Spanos Park
Riverbend
San Juan Oaks

Then the event proper is at Poppy Hills - also public, pretty cheap relatively for NCGA members, which one has to be to play in this event.  The green fee at each qualifier is pretty much the same as that for NCGA members at Poppy Hills.

So I get your point, but it's not valid in this case.  I doubt any of the guys who are truly competitive in these things give up much of their summers to play in the qualifier for NCGA Stroke Play.  All of the ones good enough to make a playoff would seem to play a LOT of competitive golf elsewhere.  And it's not like many are pining away to play Poppy Hills.

I doubt any of this is any consideration on how the NCGA runs qualifiers though...

Oh well.  If you think the time of these volunteers is also so easily spent, I suggset you try this some time.  I've never done rules official, but a lot of my fellow committeemen have... And they commiserate with me about what a thankless job it is.  I'd think in this issue, we can give them a break.

TH

[AndrewB]

I've never done rules official, but a lot of my fellow committeemen have... And they commiserate with me about what a thankless job it is.

Yes, I think very few players realize the amount of time and effort these folks put forth to put on these events.  Earlier this year I attended a two-day rules seminar put on by the NCGA and was astounded by (1) the difficulty of learning the rules as thoroughly as is necessary and (2) the commitment these people have to putting on quality events.  It was the first time I really got a glimpse of _some of_ what's involved in actually running tournaments, and I came away with a whole new appreciation for all the staff and volunteers of golf associations everywhere.  Without them, I wouldn't have any golf tournaments to play in, let alone such high quality ones I've been lucky to play in within the MGA, NJSGA, and now NCGA.  

As an aside, it was also funny to hear how they talked about players in terms of things like pace of play, going for par fives in two when they don't have a chance, and just complete ignorance of the rules.  It reminded me a bit of the other side hearing players complaining about a spotter "losing their ball" or other complaints about how tournaments are run.

Anyhow, to those of you GCAers that do work or volunteer in such ways, thank you.

[Tom Huckaby]

Andrew:

On behalf of the rules committeemen, thanks.  Those guys surely do have a tough and generally thankless job.  From all I can tell you have a lot of class, so I doubt I even need to suggest this, but you want to make one of their days?  Thank them in person for doing it the next event you play.  I'm guessing you may even do this already.  

TH

[AndrewB]

Tom,

Thank them in person for doing it the next event you play.  I'm guessing you may even do this already.

You guessed right: I do it every chance I get (and will continue to do so).

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

Thank them in person for doing it the next event you play.  I'm guessing you may even do this already.

You guessed right: I do it every chance I get (and will continue to do so).

Good man!  I had very little doubt.

It does make their day - I've seen it.  

And btw, no hassles "singling out" the NCGA re these tiebreaker issues.  Heck, in a perfect world they do always do playoffs.  But the world is imperfect, we use public courses for qualifiers, the volunteers do have lives.  

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

TH,

It seems that this is not the most important tournament that has ever come down the pike, but if the volunteers are going to go through the painstaking process of a rules weekend and take the time out of their schedule to officiate, they should be rewarded with being involved with a fair and just competition. What if one of the volunteers had a son that was sent home due to making an 8 on the #1 handicap hole? I wonder how she would feel about staying at the course until 8:30 instead of 6:30. It is faulty reasoning on the NCGA's part to send these vols to a weekend and do all this and then present some half-assed tournament. I hug a woman every time I see her, because she does a great job and I like her, I have bought another guy Heinekens on several occasions and I can say with some certainty from my talks with 'Heineken Dave' that he would not want to see someone put in all that effort to be sent home for their score on an arbitray hole. It is just as insulting to the officials to run things this way as it is the players and if someone does not realize this, I think they are missing what competition is all about.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:

I doubt also the ONLY reason the NCGA settles ties like they do at these qualifiers is to spare the time of their hard-working volunteers; I just threw that in because it would seem compassionate.

Just remember also that these qualifiers are held at public courses, and the NCGA also doesn't get the entire course for the entire day.  I doubt they ever have that kind of a guarantee at private clubs, either. That is likely the primary reason they don't allow for playoffs in these:  they can't guarantee the players can get back out on the course.

These tournaments are very, very far from half-assed.  I find, and I'd bet Andrew would agree, that they are exceedingly well-run.  But I guess they can't please everyone.  I fully believe the NCGA is well aware of this as well.

Note one more thing:  the instructions for most qualifiers include this:


PLAYOFF:  Ties will be broken by a play-off.  If a play-off cannot be conducted (decision of the committee and golf course) the USGA suggested method of matching cards will be used.  


In many cases, including the NCGA Am Stroke Play that Andrew referenced, the crowded public course does mandate card-matching.  But clearly the NCGA wants to do playoffs if they can.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Yes, at least they are trying to do what they can. Clearly the NCGA is not in the same boat as the R&A. I am not upset with the NCGA anymore, but why not just let all the ties in if you can't settle it in a just manner? I still say, no matter the extenuating circumstances, one 77 should not be going home while another 77 celebrates without golf shots being hit.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:

You want to live in a perfect world; well, so do I.  I think our difference is I accept the world's imperfections a bit more readily than you do.

 

Yes, in the perfect world, all ties would be settled by playoffs.  I just believe I did give you some very good reasons for tolerating this imperfection, at least how things are done here in NCGA world.  

One final thing:  all competitors know the tie-breaking methods going in - it's always there on the information sheet they get.  If they don't like it, they do not have to play.

TH
 

[JohnV]

It is not for the volunteers, I've never met a volunteer who wouldn't mind staying for a playoff.  We usually let them run the playoffs because they enjoy them so much and we are usually busy wrapping up the paperwork and packing to go home.

The reason for settling ties with scorecards is so that the players don't have to hang around waiting for a playoff.  People have lives and many times they can't stay after their round for 3 or 4 hours (if they were one of the first to play.)  Therefore, they play, they go home, they look on the internet to see if they made it through the qualifier.

We always have playoffs , but we frequently have players leave before a playoff.  If nobody is around for the playoff for alternates or the like, we decide by lot.  They chose to leave and they take their chances by doing that.  It is very rare for players to leave before a playoff if it means a spot in the event, but even that happens.  They just end up being an alternate.

Which is more fair, having no chance because you couldn't stick around or having some chance because it was decided by matching cards?