The Amateur Championship

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn:

The USGA just plain doesn't have the issues that the NCGA does.  For a USGA event, they can dictate terms.  

USGA Qualifiers are run by a local USGA committee member or the local association.  We have no more or less power with their events than with our own, other than the fact that the clubs think it is cool to be having a USGA qualifier.

We make sure that we are on good terms with the Pro at the course and that usually takes care of most issues.  We're flexible and they're flexible.  And, most golfers will stand aside for one or even two groups to play a playoff and get out of their way.  They usually think it is kind of cool.

We have one site where the Pro has been known to go up to a group and give them free passes for another round if they will let us sneak in front of them for a playoff.

Wonderful to hear that those people and that professional are getting it. I think that is pretty special.  On the USGA side though, Tom and I when discussing the USGA was talking about the tournament proper and not the qualifiers, I know I was, I think he was. I know very well the Q's are run by the local association.

[JohnV]

So Glenn, what you are saying is that it is better to deny 32 players by shrinking the field rather than 1 or 2 from a scorecard playoff.

If scheduling is that big a problem, I would suggest shrinking the field in the stroke play so that you could finish in time for a playoff rather than cutting the field in match play in half.

[Glenn Spencer]

So Glenn, what you are saying is that it is better to deny 32 players by shrinking the field rather than 1 or 2 from a scorecard playoff.

If scheduling is that big a problem, I would suggest shrinking the field in the stroke play so that you could finish in time for a playoff rather than cutting the field in match play in half.

You solution of shrinking the qualifying or making the eligibility requirements tougher is obviously a better one. Yes, If that is not an option, I would advocate 32 with playoffs as opposed to 64 with a scorecard playoff. I can't say that it is better, but I would not run a scorecard playoff tournament if there was a gun to my head.

[Tom Huckaby]

Yeah, I meant the events proper re USGA.  Re qualifiers for them, I'd say they have a bit more panache than a qualifier for an NCGA event, but the issues will be similar.

But Glenn, re pros "getting it" and your query about sneaking groups in, etc., well... please remember I have no doubt that DOES OCCUR most of the time.  As I've said many times, I just would not want to guarantee it for these qualifiers at  packed public courses.  Hell it's not just crowds that could interfere - darkness could as well.  So I continue to maintain that the NCGA instruction is a good one.  I'm sure they do their best to make playoffs happen.  I'm sure they'd want their events to cut your muster as a "Tournament of Consequence" as well.  

There just are realities here that you can't seem to understand, and JV seems to have forgotten.  Good for him - these aren't fun realities for the player nor the Committee.

 

[John_Cullum]

If scheduling is that big a problem, I would suggest shrinking the field in the stroke play so that you could finish in time for a playoff rather than cutting the field in match play in half.

The thing I don't understand is that they can play golf this time of year from about 4:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. It's hard to buy the argument that they don't have time for a playoff.

[JohnV]

John,  The British Mid-Am is in August.  Still plenty of daylight, but not quite as much as right now.

[AndrewB]

In any case, Andrew also didn't need a playoff... 4 guys shot 76 and all made it.  The 77s were alternates.

This is really strange.  On the first tee we were told that we were playing for 20 spots.  When I checked the web site that night I saw that I had the last spot and remember seeing at least one more 76 as an alternate.  Now I look and see 21 players qualified and that the other 76 made it.

The sanctity of the NCGA is preserved.

Hmmm ...

[ForkaB]

Glenn

I'm bemused by your obvious anger over the "countback" alternative.  As John has noted, this system is clearly stated in the rules of the competition, and if you don't like it, don't enter!

No system is perfect, and it's only a bloody game--particularly at the geezer level (e.g. Mid-Ams and above).

Rich

[JohnV]

Andrew, as an example of how that can happen, last week we started a round of qualifying for the West Penn Amateur knowing they were playing for 15 spots.  While that was going on, the Tri-State PGA was conducting their Amateur.  The winner of that Amateur is exempt into our Amateur.  Before the qualifying round was over, we found out that the guy who won the Tri-State was someone who was already exempt so we just added one more person from that qualifier immediately.

Another example: The very next day we were again playing for 15 spots.  When one player came in with a qualifying score, he told us that he would not be able to play in the Amateur (signed up before he found out he was going to be out of town and decided to play in the qualifier for the experience), so the 16th finisher got in.  It looked funny without an explanation.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Was won by...

A million pages ago Brian said it would be on BBC 2 at 2.30pm today.  Brent says that with Ken Brown reporting it will probably also be on the golf channel soon.  It was an excellent match with two young(ish) golfers with similar swings battling it out for the first 25 holes there was never more than one shot in it and the lead swung back and forth.  However as the wind blew, building up to a 2-3 club strength, in the afternoon a clear winner arrived.  IN the pro shop afterwards the head guy (a very affable Scotsman, sorry didn’t get his name) said the winners final shot to 15 showed how well they had played the course.  It’s a 475 yard par 4 played straight into the wind and he said “it’s one of the holes today where you have to hit away form the pin position if you want to find the green. The looser was behind and he tried to go for the pin but his shot was rejected by the slopes.  ...... executed his shot perfectly.”  It should make for great viewing.


Also what a course! I know I’m not the first to say it but I do hope the camera on the ground treatment can show some of the movement in the land.

Some pictures.

Can anyone confirm that that’s the “white House” that Ian Flemming used to spend his weekends at?
The buried ball, it was on the first 18 and he moved it 25 yards to the fairway! Will the TV show him repeatedly asking for a caddy car to be moved, and then it turns out to be Ken Browns?  (look hard, it's there, right in the centre of the picture).

Finally look out for these 3 GCA desperadoes. Enjoy

[AndrewB]

John,

Andrew, as an example of how that can happen ...

Thanks for the examples.  Those certainly seem like fairly common circumstances that hadn't occurred to me, and I hope that's the sort of thing that's going on here.

Though, I did look at all the qualifying sites for this event and see that each one similarly had the cutoff in between numbers rather than within the same number.  I would expect they'd all be conducted under a matching cards or playoff system rather than an "and ties" system, and I find it hard to imagine that it worked out perfectly at each site.  Perhaps they got enough unexpected spots to use "and ties" after the fact?  Maybe Committeeman Huckaby can get an explanation ... (note that I am sure the NCGA did everything aboveboard, I am more just curious)

[Tom Huckaby]

Andrew:

I do course rating, and even in that ought not to speak for the NCGA.  I have literally zero to do with rules and competitions beyond knowing quite a few guys who do those...

So take this with an ocean of salt.... But beyond the examples JV gave - which could happen here - ie one guy says he really can't play after all at the event proper - my guess is the NCGA has a range of allowable places in the event proper also.  That is, 75-80 or the like.  If it's looking like allowing one more guy in from any qualifier saves a large playoff, they likely go ahead and do it.

You'll notice in your instructions that it says the number of spots will be decided by the Committee on the day of play....

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

I was watching the Club Pros yesterday and it occured to me, why I have such a problem with the 'playoff' of scorecards and sending 7 guys out in groups of 4 and 3. It makes the competition feel amateurish. That is really all it is, it just lessens it. I am not angry that is done, just amazes me that someone would go to all trouble that they do and then lessen the championship with a situation like screcard playoffs. The Club Pros did the right thing, 7 for 5 and they sent them off together and played it out. Can anyone really imagine playing for the right to go to Medinah and not knowing what type of shot to play because you don't know what your opponents are doing? No. Of course not, and this is the same feeling an Amateur has about getting in to match play.

[Brian_Ewen]

Tony
Thanks for the attempt of diverting the thread back on topic , and the review and pics.

By your description , I presume the Pro. is still Andrew Brooks ? .

Thanks
Brian

[Tony_Muldoon]

By your description , I presume the Pro. is still Andrew Brooks ? .

Thanks
Brian

Yes I believe thats the man, he was talking to the large contingent of french officials who were there. Said he had been on the Europena Tour for about 10 years.  I asked him how much they had toughned up the scourse for the tournament and he smiled and said "not a bit, what you see is what the members play", he also hinted that the Open would be back.  Genuinely nice guy.

I see Rich Goodale on another thread dancing round the question of what Amatuer means.  Well this winner (frenchman name translate as war) had about a dozen officials from his countires association follwing him round. He's 20 and intends to enter the Q shcool this autumn and if successful give up his invite to play in the Masters to turn proffessional. C'est la Vie.

However just as the presentation ceremony was ending a large balck helicopter landed on the 18th fairway. According to todays Telegraph he was shisked back to Paris by Helicopter for the celebrations.   Well I'm an amatuer but it seems some amatuers are more equal than others...  (good player mind).  

[ForkaB]

Hmmmmm.

French person wins big golf tournament.  Black helicopter descends and whisks him away.  Sounds like a CIA "rendition" to me........

[Brent Hutto]

Tony, thanks for posting the pictures. As you probably noticed, by that point in the trip my camera was staying in the bag too much.

Andrew Brooks does seem a great guy, I spent a few minutes here and there chatting and I know he was very solicitous and helpful to my young friend who was playing in the Amateur.

I was on the road to Oxfordshire and didn't know that the breeze picked up later in the second round (I left the course after the 27th hole). I wasn't surprised the Frenchman pulled away, especially now that I find out there was wind. Even in the dead still conditions earlier Mr. Gee was hitting some loose shots even with short irons, I think he was fighting his swing just a bit and on that course in any wind at all you can't make a living without controlling your ball pretty nicely.

Nobody has made this comment that I noticed so let me point it out. There was no player in the field who was able to play "Flog" at either Royal St. George's or Prince's. The open question is whether 5-1/2 hour rounds and innumerable provisional balls and penalty strokes caused by waist high hay is an acceptable (to a GCA perspective) manner of making people hit the ball straight at the expense of long. This was both made eaiser and harder by the firmness of the courses which mean these guy could hit 2-iron a mile off the tee but also meant the occasional bad bounce into the hay even when playing the safety shot.