The Amateur Championship

[Bill Shamleffer]

With all of the U.S. Open excitement I forgot that The Amateur Championship is this week at Royal St. George's.

For those who have played this course are there some exciting match play holes on the back nine, where one can try to gamble when a few down, or where a steady par may be good enough to win the hole?

Also, this tournament was the last week of May - first week of June the last few years.  Had this been its traditional spot on the calendar?  Was it moved to later in June to attract US college players now done with the NCAAs?

An interesting twist I like to this tournament is that rather than have a play-off to fill the 64 spots, they instead have a first round of matches for the higher qualifiers, who then fill out the 64 player bracket.

However, can anyone in the UK tell me why the R&A still have the first round match-ups as #1 v. #33, #2 v. #34, etc. (actually since this year 76 made match play, it is #1 v. #39 and etc.).  I believe the USGA also used this method in the past, but changed in the early 80s (please clarify the accuracy of this statement) to the now more common #1 against the highest seed.  The advantage of the R&A method is that the top half of the field should have equivalent match-ups, rather then giving the highest seeds the biggest advantage and giving the middle of the field the closest match-ups.  Although, in most top caliber golf championships I think there is now so little differential of quality between the first and last seeds that it probably does not matter how the brackets are filled.

[AndrewB]

An interesting twist I like to this tournament is that rather than have a play-off to fill the 64 spots, they instead have a first round of matches for the higher qualifiers, who then fill out the 64 player bracket.

Wow, I've never heard of that before, but I think it's great.  Do you know if this is unique to The Amateur, or if it's done for their other match play competitions too?

[CHrisB]

Andrew,
In the British Mid-Amateur, they do not have an extra round of matches, and further they don't have a playoff to decide the final spots of the 64. Instead, they use standard tie-breaking procedures, with 2nd round qualifying score, etc. determining the final spots in case of a tie. It's a 5-day tournament with 36 holes of qualifying and a round of 64 for match play, so there is simply no time for the extra round or a playoff.

Don't know about the others.

[ForkaB]

Chris

Check out the R&A website.  For whatever reason they have added the 12 guys on 152 to the draw, so there are in fact 76 playing in the match play.

BTW--an amazingly international group of players teed it up.  Makes our Amateur look downright parochial.

Rich

[Brian_Ewen]

Live Scoreboard:http://www.randa.org/index.cfm?action=championship.amateurRound&id=7&cfid=3138170&cftoken=57550837

Also highlights on BBC2 , Sunday at 2.30pm .

[Tony_Muldoon]

Also, this tournament was the last week of May - first week of June the last few years.  Had this been its traditional spot on the calendar?  Was it moved to later in June to attract US college players now done with the NCAAs?

Bill, I believe you're right about the reason for a change.  The downside is that it now clashes with The Berkshire Trophy which in the past yeilded early carear wins for up and comming players like Faldo and Lyle.  For the last two years the field has consisted of those who don't make the cut at the Amateur.

[Tony_Muldoon]

"Pablo Martin of Spain equalled the course record of 67 at Royal St George's to ensure himself a spot in the match play rounds of the Amateur Championship. His card was 12 shots lower than the 79 he scored at Prince's yesterday, giving him a total of 146, four shots behind qualifying leader Llewellyn Matthews of Southerndown.

The Royal St George's record was set in the third round of the 2003 Open Championship by Nick Faldo and Pierre Fulke."


Our man Hutto reports the wind was between 20-25 mph throughout and the rough is wild.

The CSS were declared at  RSG 77 and Prince's 75 & 76.


Good luck to Oliver Fisher who came 4th in the strokeplay section.  

[ForkaB]

Tony

Elvis (Costello) is ringing in my head.

"Oliver's Army............."

Vamenos Pablo!

[Glenn Spencer]

Andrew,
In the British Mid-Amateur, they do not have an extra round of matches, and further they don't have a playoff to decide the final spots of the 64. Instead, they use standard tie-breaking procedures, with 2nd round qualifying score, etc. determining the final spots in case of a tie. It's a 5-day tournament with 36 holes of qualifying and a round of 64 for match play, so there is simply no time for the extra round or a playoff.

Don't know about the others.

So if I shoot 70-77 and you shoot 76-71 and we both tie at 147. Would you get the last spot if it was down to the two of us for the last spot?

[JESII]

"Pablo Martin of Spain equalled the course record of 67 at Royal St George's to ensure himself a spot in the match play rounds of the Amateur Championship. His card was 12 shots lower than the 79 he scored at Prince's yesterday, giving him a total of 146, four shots behind qualifying leader Llewellyn Matthews of Southerndown.

The Royal St George's record was set in the third round of the 2003 Open Championship by Nick Faldo and Pierre Fulke."


Our man Hutto reports the wind was between 20-25 mph throughout and the rough is wild.

The CSS were declared at  RSG 75 and Prince's 73.


Good luck to Oliver Fisher who came 4th in the strokplay section.  

Tony,

Just a quick look through the R&A site confirmed my memory that there have been many scores lower than the 67 by Martin at RSG. As low as 63 by Payne Stewart and Nick Faldo in 1993. Not sure where the discrepency is.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Jes I think they lengthened the course for the last Open and so it must be the lowest score for the current course. Still v. impressive in that wind.

Let the group not forget Marc Harings 72 as undoubtedly the 'best' score there .

[JohnV]

The R&A doesn't have a playoff for the final spots in match play.  This is done to save Glenn Spencer from getting up in arms about any decisions how to pair the players in the playoff.  A secondary reason is that they feel that if a player came from the other side of the world it would be wrong to eliminate him in a playoff so they just add another round of matches for the higher finishers.

As for why #1 plays #33, I think they want to keep their times in order.  If you notice, the extra players played early in the morning on Wednesday and then went back out Wednesday afternoon for their second round match.  The #1/33 played right after those matches and where done for the day.  So, the guys who finished high have to play two matches the first day.

I think they wanted to keep the draw the same for later days so that nobody had to play late on Wednesday and then go out early on Thursday, which can happen with the USGA pairings.  

Because the USGA usually doesn't do the playoffs until the morning of match play, the medalist usually gets the last match on the first day (he gets the last player to get into match play) and then has the first match the next day and from then on as long as he lasts.  By having the medalist play #33 instead of #64, they can know who his first opponent will be and therefore give him a starting time right away.

[Glenn Spencer]

John,

It must be catching on, many associations are going to the Glenn rule.

So, I still don't know, can one 147 get knocked out without hitting another shot, while another can get in without in the British Mid. From John's post I can't tell if he is speaking about both or just the Am. Who does the 6th guy that qualified tied 64th play? That is 69 total, are byes given out?

[CHrisB]

Andrew,
In the British Mid-Amateur, they do not have an extra round of matches, and further they don't have a playoff to decide the final spots of the 64. Instead, they use standard tie-breaking procedures, with 2nd round qualifying score, etc. determining the final spots in case of a tie. It's a 5-day tournament with 36 holes of qualifying and a round of 64 for match play, so there is simply no time for the extra round or a playoff.

Don't know about the others.

So if I shoot 70-77 and you shoot 76-71 and we both tie at 147. Would you get the last spot if it was down to the two of us for the last spot?

Glenn,
That's correct, again just for the British Mid-Amateur--not sure about the ones besides the Am and Mid-Am.

Rich G,
Check my previous post; I was referring to the Mid-Amateur, not the Amateur.

[ForkaB]

Sorry Chris.  Obviously the R&A thinks that the old farts who play in the Mid-Am aren't physically capable of an extra match or even an extra hole or two!

[Glenn Spencer]

Andrew,
In the British Mid-Amateur, they do not have an extra round of matches, and further they don't have a playoff to decide the final spots of the 64. Instead, they use standard tie-breaking procedures, with 2nd round qualifying score, etc. determining the final spots in case of a tie. It's a 5-day tournament with 36 holes of qualifying and a round of 64 for match play, so there is simply no time for the extra round or a playoff.

Don't know about the others.

So if I shoot 70-77 and you shoot 76-71 and we both tie at 147. Would you get the last spot if it was down to the two of us for the last spot?

Glenn,
That's correct, again just for the British Mid-Amateur--not sure about the ones besides the Am and Mid-Am.

Rich G,
Check my previous post; I was referring to the Mid-Amateur, not the Amateur.

Wow, I can't even imagine that being the case. I really don't know how someone should feel if they lose their spot to such an arbitrary thing as who played better the second round. I amazed that this goes on. AMAZED!! What are the feelings about this over in the UK? Is it a deal or does nobody care? I can honestly say that if I was over at Troon or something and I tied the number for match play in the Mid-Am and then was told that I was back on the plane because I played better the first day than the second. I have a hard time beleving my reaction would be anything gentlemanly if I had not known that rule beforehand.

[JohnV]

Glenn,

I agree (for once) that it isn't a great way to do things.  A playoff of some sort would be much better.

The key to these things is that everyone knows how ties are to be decided before play starts.  In many club events that doesn't happen and then guys get angry when it seems like they are the one getting the shaft on the tie-breaker.

[TEPaul]

"BTW--an amazingly international group of players teed it up.  Makes our Amateur look downright parochial.

Rich;

To your constantly critical way of looking at the USGA and American golf of course it does. I might remind you that the US Amateur at Merion last year most definitely had good international representation and it was won by an Italian national. How quickly you forget or else how patently uninformed you really are. But what else is a guy to do who, at every turn, can do nothing other than criticize American golf and how it compares to what goes on over there?

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

I agree (for once) that it isn't a great way to do things.  A playoff of some sort would be much better.

The key to these things is that everyone knows how ties are to be decided before play starts.  In many club events that doesn't happen and then guys get angry when it seems like they are the one getting the shaft on the tie-breaker.

Yes, this makes the system of sending people off in different pairings for a playoff, look downright GOLDEN. It does help that everyone should know before, but this is a really improper way of handling things. I would think that a coin flip would be a better way. My question John, is how does it happen you think, that they pick the second round? I can't imagine anything that would be more meaningless than how you arrived at the same qualifying score. To be honest, I wouldn't even feel right about taking the spot if I shot 79-68 and got in. Lower the second day? I have always felt that it was 'easier' to shoot a low one the second day because you are under less pressure, this really seems like a backward practice. How does a governing body in charge of the game that has intelligent men running it arrive at this conclusion? It is an absolute mystery to me, I really feel that it cheapens the event.

[John_Cullum]

Glenn

I would expect the method of settling ties is adequately covered in the entry/application form.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony

Elvis (Costello) is ringing in my head.

"Oliver's Army............."

Vamenos Pablo!

"Stand down men"

[JESII]

Glenn

If we are to use the players golf performance as the main ingredient in breaking these ties (in other words no coin flips), what formula would you recommend?

[JESII]

Jes I think they lengthened the course for the last Open and so it must be the lowest score for the current course. Still v. impressive in that wind.

Let the group not forget Marc Harings 72 as undoubtedly the 'best' score there .

Tony,

No question 67 is extremely impressive out there. I do not know the wind, but I played the last Amateur at Sandwich and shot 85 there and 81 at Deal. The low round in medal play at RSG was even par 70, so beating that by 3 is very strong.

Is it common practice in the UK to reset scoring records when a course is altered?

I think I would prefer the method at my home course here in the states. We have a Record board that shows the course record as it has fallen over the last 100 years, and the course details at the time of a new record. Obviously the course is at least 1,000 yards longer today than initially.

[John_Cullum]

Glenn

Keep this in perspective. Playoffs are time consuming. We're merely trying to find out who gets the last spot in to the match play prtion of the championship-the guy who will go up against the medalist. Settling it by matching cards is not likely to affect the outcome of the championship.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn

Keep this in perspective. Playoffs are time consuming. We're merely trying to find out who gets the last spot in to the match play prtion of the championship-the guy who will go up against the medalist. Settling it by matching cards is not likely to affect the outcome of the championship.

Clay Ogden- qualified in playoff and won the 2005 Publinx, I would say that is affecting the outcome of the championship. The last guy in has beaten the medalist many times in the US Amateur. This format is a joke and this tournament is a joke because of it. What happens if I shoot 70-76 and you shoot 70-76, do you go back to the 18th hole or something. This is for club events, not REAL tournaments.

JES,

I obviously have no other plan because there is only one way to do it.