Educating Scots

[Brian_Ewen]

Guys
Several of my Golfing friends have asked me the same question lately .

They seem to think I must know the answer because I log in here most days .

But the truth is I dont , and I am as baffled as them .

So come on educate us Jocks , and explain why bunkers like this one belong on a Scottish Parkland Course

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Brian

A very good point since these bunker types are now the vogue and are bound to appear more often.
Are these bunkers on a « Parkland » course ? There are no trees and lots of gorse and the obligatory telegraph wires.
It depends how you would describe  a « Parkland » Golf  Course.
 If it fit’s in visually and is repeated enough to add a bit of continuity of style why not ? Are there any rules saying you shouldn’t ?
The good Doctor was imitating Links Style « waste bunkers » in his original golf course designs – however they have all been simplified over the years by well-meaning maintenance staff.

A more interesting question is how long these kind of bunkers will survive well meaning Greenkeepers tidying up the edges so the maintenance can be speeded up.
Or next generation committee members ordering the bunker to be « simplified » to meet the needs of « unfairly treated » frustrated golfers.
Probably sooner than we would care for.

[Bob Jenkins]

Brian,

Looks to me like a links course, what with the undulations and what appears to be gorse. Regarding the bunker, it appears as though chunks have fallen off the high edges of the bunker from heavy rainfall ? Very unusual. As to why it would belong on a Scottish Parkland course, I would guess that the turf must be soft and not typical sandy links turf or the "chunks" would not be falling into the bunker.

Bob Jenkins

[Brian_Ewen]

John / Bob / Bill
Thanks for your reply , and your valid points .
 
For those that did not recognise it , the pic. is from the newly renovated Dukes Course in St.Andrews .
 
Certainly there has been plaudits on here for Mr Liddys work , but for the members of my locals society who got there first look at the course , its was a head scratching / shaking experience .
 
Some of which was down to thick knee deep rough around the course , that on a typically blustery Scottish Summers day , was hard work and not much enjoyment for our hard earned cash .
 
[Which to be honest I am sure Mr Kohler will lose no sleep over] .
 
IMHO , there certainly has been improvements to the course , but a lot of it looks like a forced style of bunkering onto a site that just doesn't suit it  .
 
Maybe as the course matures , time and Mr Liddy will win me over .
 
Here is a pic. from 3 years ago of the same hole as in my original post , the par 3 12th  .

I always liked this par 3 , as to me , there was options depending on pin position and the conditions that day . To my uneducated eye this seems to have been lost in the name of style .
 
The 12th hole from the tee today.

 
More to follow ? .
 
Best Regards
Brian

[George Pazin]

Brian -

Whose decision was it to renovate? (Honest question, no nefarious intent)

Even though I'm not a big fan of the look of most parkland courses, I definitely prefer the earlier look, with that dramatic land contour.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

I saw the title of this thread and was intriqued...

Brian_Ewen
Sr. Member


Posts: 439





  Educating Scots
« on: Today at 03:33:06am »  

My only response to "Educatiing Scots" would be to look at my post on The Mickelson Mess regarding teaching Phil to punch out and play safe:

James W. Keever
Sr. Member


Posts: 567



+4 Wins at Winged Foot

  Re:Mickelson's Mess
« Reply #240 on: Today at 03:53:08pm »      



However, asking Phil to punch out on #18 is essentially the same thing as trying to teach a housecat the backstroke.  It goes against the animal's nature, he'll fight you every step of the way, you'll get bloody doing it, and at the end of the day, he won't do it all that well...


I couldn't even begin to educate a Scotman about his game...and I'm part highlander.  

Now that I have had my playful tug, the bunker appears to have been created with a sod chainsaw.  I kind of like the shape, but I don't like the two little pieces left in the middle of it.

I think that the current state is better looking that 3 years ago IMHO.

JWK
 

[John Chilver-Stainer]

JWK

My cat does an excellent back stroke and is now working on the doggy paddle. Having taken up golf 4 years ago moggy is already a master of the lag purr. There is no truth in the  phrase « You can’t teach an old cat new tricks » just as there is no truth in the phrase « you can’t teach a new Scot old tricks ». As a matter of fact you just can’t believe anything you hear now days. What were you saying about Phil Mickelson’s crunch shot ?

Brian
I see what you mean – somehow it looks as though it’s been « chained-sawed » in just as a  fashionable gimmick rather than an architectural improvement to the hole.

[JSlonis]

Given the setting of the course, I much prefer the look of the "older" version.  I like the simplistic look, with the neat ground features being accentuated.

Am I the only one who thinks that these rugged, gnarly edged bunkers are popping up way too frequently on too many courses?  While I really liked them at first, they are now starting to resemble a great song that gets entirely too much radio play.  Has this "look" jumped the shark?  I know the phrase "jumped the shark" has indeed done just that.

[Brian_Ewen]

George
The Dukes Course was acquired by Herb Kohler when he bought the Old Course Hotel .

I can only presume it was his decision .

There has been grumblings of "Whistling Straits in Scotland" which I think is unfair , but it totally baffles me why you would build this style on top of clay .

Regards
Brian

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

JWK

My cat does an excellent back stroke and is now working on the doggy paddle. Having taken up golf 4 years ago moggy is already a master of the lag purr. There is no truth in the  phrase « You can’t teach an old cat new tricks » just as there is no truth in the phrase « you can’t teach a new Scot old tricks ». As a matter of fact you just can’t believe anything you hear now days. What were you saying about Phil Mickelson’s crunch shot ?

Brian
I see what you mean – somehow it looks as though it’s been « chained-sawed » in just as a  fashionable gimmick rather than an architectural improvement to the hole.

JC-S -

There is no lay up in Phil.  

Jamie -

Let's teach JC-S's cat to jump the shark.  Should be good entertainment!

I agree with you that post-modern/neo-classical bunkering has become so similar that it's almost like the Sandra Bullock/Sylvester Stallone driving to the restaurant scene in "Demolition Man":

Stallone:  "So, where are we going to dinner?  (His first meal in 30 years after being un-Ted Williamsed/Unfrozen)

Bullock:  "Taco Bell"

Stallone:  "Why Taco Bell?"

Bullock:  "In 2012, it was determined that the best restaurant was Taco Bell.  Now all restaurants are Taco Bells!"

Same with bunkering.

JWK

[plabatt]

Brian

It does NOT belong!!!!!

Peter Thomson must be having a hard time downing a pint because of laughing uncontrollably whenever he thinks of how they have tried to "Americanize" the Dukes.

Peter

[George Pazin]

Jamie, I personally like the gnarly look, the natural look. I don't think I'd tire of it. To me, that's kind of like tiring of looking at a beautiful woman - I'd never understand that!

But, having said that, to me the older photo looks more natural than the newer bunker. Perhaps with time, the newer one will soften a bit. But the loss of that land, and replacing it with flat sand, that seems not just unnatural, but less fun to play as well.

In general, I think most of the course photos that Paul Turner and others have posted of Scotland and England look much more natural in appearance. I know that many will say no golf course is natural, but I just prefer the slightly less perfect look of the typical UK course to the manicured perfection we tend to see here in the US.

Thanks for the info, Brian. I share your puzzlement.

[paul cowley]

Please do not confuse my post as in any way representing Mr Liddy's intents as per the bunker shown......but it seems to me that the bunker in question is still in a state of construction [or de-construction ], more commonly referred to as 'chunking'........popularised by C&C and others, where the existing turf is chunked and scattered and then softened by raking the sand up parts of the exposed edges [ something that I feel has not been fully completed in the photo ].

...or maybe this is Tim's desired final effect.

Maybe Brian could weigh in on the current appearance of the bunker.....it would not surprise me if it looked similar to the back right bunker that can be seen in previous before and after photos.

[JSlonis]

Jamie, I personally like the gnarly look, the natural look. I don't think I'd tire of it. To me, that's kind of like tiring of looking at a beautiful woman - I'd never understand that!

But, having said that, to me the older photo looks more natural than the newer bunker. Perhaps with time, the newer one will soften a bit. But the loss of that land, and replacing it with flat sand, that seems not just unnatural, but less fun to play as well.

In general, I think most of the course photos that Paul Turner and others have posted of Scotland and England look much more natural in appearance. I know that many will say no golf course is natural, but I just prefer the slightly less perfect look of the typical UK course to the manicured perfection we tend to see here in the US.

Thanks for the info, Brian. I share your puzzlement.

George,

I like the look as well, but I'm afraid of it being overdone in places where it doesn't belong.  I just don't want it to become "kitschy".  

I do agree with your woman statement, however, truly beautiful women don't have to try too hard to be beautiful.  When they do, they end up looking like the tragic fourth edition of Farrah Faucette.

[Brian_Ewen]

A before and after of the par 3 3rd , which I think is an improvement .

[Marc Haring]

A before and after of the par 3 3rd , which I think is an improvement .

Brian.

Are you sure?

[ForkaB]

I, too, personally like the first version better.

[James Bennett]

I thought the second image was a picture from a course in Clementon in New Jersey, just across from Philadelphia.

James B

[John Kirk]

I like the original version of hole #12 better.  At a minimum, they should rebuild the back right bunker so the style of the two bunkers match.

My question would be "What is the strategic significance of the new bunker?  What does it add to the hole's strategy?  In the "old #12" picture, there's a ball just short of the back bunker, which looks like a tricky up and down.  That result won't happen nearly as often with the new bunker there.

[Brian_Ewen]

Guys
I am trying to be positive  

Each time I have played the 3rd hole , one of my playing partners has topped it into the old bog , and then ended up trying to hack it towards the green among those waist high reeds .So it has to be an improvement to them .

James
I thought a Purgatory influence ? .

John
That ball on the right was mine . Both my playing partners played out left which was an easier shot , I went for the pin came up short and ended up there . No it was'nt easy but I remember having options , and choosing the wrong one .

Brian

[Brian_Ewen]

How about the new [ improved ] Clubhouse View ? :

[Jonathan McCord]

WOW, Great before and after pictures.

However, I personally think the green, in the picture, from the clubhouse, looked much better then the renovated green.  The initial green seems to fit the hillside in a more natural way.

All the architects needed to do was change the bunkering around that green and it would have been perfect.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Brian

Your photos are an excellent illustration of the before and after.

On the 18th the original green appears to be have been lower than the new one allowing a  per centage shot off the side slope favouring the bump and run game.
The new green appears to have been pushed up with excavated material from the new bunker depressions. The new strategy for the hole being up and over or be damned to a sandy waste.
The new green shape doesn’t compare well with the original – how about the green contours have they been improved or not ?

[ed_getka]

Brian,
   How has the strategy of the holes changed? A "look" is a secondary factor that I consider after looking at how the course actually plays. So, how would you say the course is playing differently now?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Whenever I visit linksland now I’m on the lookout for natural areas of exposed sandy wastes or ‘natural bunkers’ to understand what they really look like.  These are from 3 different countries.







I’m beginning to think that in fifty years time posters on GCAwill be using phrases to describe the new bunkers above as ‘classic turn of the century “naturalism”’.  They will also favour the phrase ‘homage to MacKenzie' and certain bunkers will be named after the shapers of today as regularly named on here.

Let me say I like the look but it's no more 'natural' than the previous one.