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Mike_Cirba

Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« on: June 18, 2006, 01:45:57 PM »
I finally made it to Lederach and I'm utterly flabbergasted.

I've never seen a golf course that so brazenly, purposefully, and perplexingly broke virtually every single convention and expectation of modern golf.  Those who expect golf to be a fair and predictable affair will absolutely detest it.  Many will be completely confused by it.  Others, and I suspect many who participate here, will relish it.  Me....I couldn't wipe the smile from my face.

I've read the Kelly Moran built Lederach after spending some time studying the courses of the British Isles.  And one can clearly see the influences, but not in the expected ways where we see fescue, pot bunkers, and maybe a few requisite double-greens in an attempt to emulate the Old Sod.  Instead, Lederach borrows more from the wild, wooly, adventurous style of a Prestwick or a Cruden Bay than it does a Muirfield or Lytham.  

Under no circumstance would I call Lederach "minimalist".  Although natural features and flow of the property are fully utilized, a good deal of earth looks to have been moved to create features, to construct artificial, jagged, irregular mounding, and to eschew expectations.  How a course this "different" was built in the first place is something that flowed through my mind a number of times.  Wouldn't the township officials have insisted on something more conventional?

After playing the 6th hole, I found myself glancing nervously at what hole I was on, simply because I was afraid that the round was progressing too quickly, and might end too soon.  I was having much too much fun, although my playing partners, both members at Rolling Green (and no, not the usual suspects everyone here knows), were not having the same type of adventurous enjoyment, one having found "blind" bunkers on back to back holes, and another taking too aggressive a line on the third which resulted in a picked up "X".  They seemed confounded and as the temperature of the day picked up, their blood pressure seemed to rise in equal measure.

Others here have discussed the course in some depth and I won't belabor those points except to say that it had some of the most random, chaotic, thought-provoking, and clearly unfair holes I've seen built in modern times.  There are some holes that don't work, such as the 11th, and I have to wonder if the steeply uphill 650 yard 12th, where I hit my best drive of the day followed by a solid driver from the deck, only to be left with a completely blind, 200 yard uphill approach to a shallow shelf of a green didn't stretch the realm of plausability, but overall there is a wonderful balance of holes that are fun and different, if more than a little unusual.  

There are numerous blind shots, blind bunkers, center line bunkers, and wide avenues of play around them, but what finally separates Lederach from more standard fare are the greens and green complexes.  They are the boldest greens in terms of shape, size, undulation, and surrounds that I can remember playing in a long time.  They truly brought to mind the approaches one faces at the Old Course, with surfaces that seem to emulate the extremes one faces there in terms of slope and undulation on holes like the 2nd, or shallow hood of a car greens like the 12th and 14th of St. Andrews.  Thankfully, the slope rating is kept at a reasonable pace (probably 7 or 8) so they putt wonderfully.

A cautionary note is that there was a lot of water thrown on the course by the maintenance staff overnight, and I hope that isn't going to be the practice because this course was clearly meant to be played firm and fast.

So overall...some will hate it, some will find it infuriating, some will be pleasantly bemused, while others will love it.

But, no one will be bored by it.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 02:06:38 PM by Mike Cirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2006, 01:50:54 PM »
I'll also try to do a hole by hole this week.  There is a LOT to discuss, and it may take a while to digest it all in some cohesive fashion before I can adequately report.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2006, 02:04:11 PM »
Mike,
Maybe I missed it but I don't think you ever said what catagory you fall into (love, hate, mixed,...)?  I'll be playing it soon.
Mark

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2006, 02:11:26 PM »
Mike -

Great report, as was SLAPPER's meditation on Bayonne and Sweeney's report from the Foot.

Detailed and rant-free is what we need more of here . . .
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Mike_Cirba

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2006, 02:16:57 PM »
Mike,
Maybe I missed it but I don't think you ever said what catagory you fall into (love, hate, mixed,...)?  I'll be playing it soon.
Mark

Mark,

I'm still smiling.  I found myself laughing out loud multiple times as I surveyed what I was faced with.  It's a hoot!

Not everything works, but it's a course with brass balls and chutzpah and daring out the wazoo.  One wishes it wasn't built within the constraints of a housing development, which doesn't impinge on play but does constrain the intimacy of the routing in places.  

There is nothing there that holds to convention.  There was more talk in our group about exactly "how" to play each hole than is the usual, that's for certain.  It's clearly as much a test of the mind and the temperament as it is of executing golf shots from point A to B.   It was also built with just amazing flexibility and variability, due largely to the size, shape, and contouring of the greens.  

I will be very interested to hear your thoughts after you play it.  I realize I'm probably on the radical fringe somewhat in my taste, but I loved it, while recognizing that it's going to elicit some strong and opposing reactions from others.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2006, 08:08:51 PM »
Mike

I've played there twice so far with another visit planned this week. It's definitely a course that needs to be played many times to "figure out." The greens are a trip on the wild side and the centerline bunkers give pause on the tee- long or short OR right or left. Not many public courses give us that. The 11th and 12th holes are some combination. I wish I had a scanner available now to post the graphics from the yardage book.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2006, 09:00:48 PM »

Great report, as was SLAPPER's meditation on Bayonne and Sweeney's report from the Foot.

One trip to the Lower 49 does not make you an expert yet. It is "The Foot'"

Mike,

Looking forward to the outing there in July.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 09:01:55 PM by Mike Sweeney »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2006, 11:20:44 PM »


 

There is nothing there that holds to convention.  



Mike C,
    So are the holes cut in the green? ;)  Sounds cool, I was pretty bummed when Kelly couldn't make it out to Morgan Hill last fall to play the course together. I am intrigued to see his work after talking with him at the last winter meeting.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2006, 08:23:32 AM »
 One of the RG guys told me about playing with you. He did not like the course. I asked him what you thought. He said " I'm pretty sure he didn't like it either." I was surprised to hear that. I guess when you say it is unfair the average guy just assumes you don't like it.
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2006, 08:39:15 AM »
One of the RG guys told me about playing with you. He did not like the course. I asked him what you thought. He said " I'm pretty sure he didn't like it either." I was surprised to hear that. I guess when you say it is unfair the average guy just assumes you don't like it.

Mike,

I think it was a case of my trying to listen to their thoughts, so if I seemed to concur, it was probably due to the questions I was asking.

Incidentally, that same fellow said his favorite part of the course was "the condition of the greens".  

So, Big World, ya know...

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2006, 10:36:59 PM »
I wonder if KBM desired a hole that seems to play as a 700 yarder, or if it just worked out that way in order to preserve
other surrounding holes he really liked. At the  moment, I can't remember the hole leading up to or following that particular hole. I think Mike's comments depict well the charm of Lederach.

Kyle Harris

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2006, 10:42:36 PM »
Played today with Doug Braunsdorf.

Question for the group at large... what's so wrong with 11 and 12?

Pictures tonight, commentary tomorrow. Sorry about the lower-than-Kyle-usual quality here, lighting wasn't great today.

The appealing view of the third hole landing area(s) from the 2nd tee:


The 2nd green, with playing coming from just right of the picture. I had this angle in after a pulled tee shot and my ball is visible in the collection area.


The tee shot on 3, showing why the preview from the 2nd tee is so appealing.


If going for the green in two from the "bail out" tee shot option on 3, the shot must run around a not-terribly-visible bunker way up by the green. Fortunately, the bunker isn't terribly difficult from which to recover as the low side faces the green.


The approach to the par 5 6th green. Love the moundwork in front.


The tee shot on 8, with trees in the fairway and a cross bunker in the clearing. KBM shows us that trees are 80% air. I loved this shot. The green has a very wild false front as well, placing a premium on the wedge shot coming in.


Doug striped a drive to this position on 10. While lining up this shot, he uttered "Okay, this shot has the green light to fire at the flag." I started cracking up laughing and here's why...

As you probably guessed, the flag is right behind the tree. And also, Doug was right in his assessment.

The much villified 11th hole from the tee. I liked the hole, and I predict it will grow on people as soon as they discard their preconceived notions on how the hole should play. Give it time, gents.


The other villified hole, the 12th, from a well-positioned shot in the fairway. Plenty to think about on this 650 yard brute, and like the 11th, will just take some time to grow on people.


The approach from about 160 yards out on the 13th.


The uphill par 3 14th of 230 yards. The bank in front serves to kill the tee shot, allowing the ball to run up on the green in a controlled manner.


Try the course, you'll like it.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 10:44:46 PM by Kyle Harris »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2006, 12:09:31 AM »
Kyle,

Glad to hear you enjoyed Lederach.  

It's difficult to tell from pictures, but the course is quite unusual in many respects, such as the fact that most of the bunkers are either completely blind or located about dead center of the fairway.

It's a place likely to elicit strong reactions.  I had a call from a friend of mine who's played over 1000 courses and he absolutely detested it.  He thought the hugely undulating greens were ridiculous and the multiple blind shots completely unfair.

Of course, he's also a guy who is a pure card and pencil golfer who also is known to hurl clubs and become quite unsurly if not playing well, so the fact that he found it to be not his cup of tea makes me feel pretty certain of my positive assessment.  As far as the undulating greens, unfair hazards, and randomness of the challenge, I'm quite sure he wouldn't get much about The Old Course, either, but I'm also sure he wouldn't admit that.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 12:12:16 AM by Mike Cirba »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2006, 07:03:55 AM »
"Try it, you'll like it"

GCA Outing is on Friday, July 21. I'm bumping the thread. Kelly Blake Moran will be there to answer questions from those who have "villified" and/or "detested" his work.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2006, 09:23:53 AM »
Kelly....I've enjoyed what I have been able to see and discern from Kyle's photos, knowing full well how tricky golf photography can be......I especially like your use of mounding in areas.....used as it should be by combining form and function.

The course looks very interesting and I hope to see it someday.

....and as one golf designer has been known to mutter to another while exiting #18 ANGC...."don't let the bastards get you down"........... ;)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 03:33:51 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2006, 12:33:23 PM »
le page, guernsey

« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 04:34:47 AM by JMorgan »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2006, 09:48:00 PM »
The pictures do the course NO justice whatsoever.  

The most 'FUN' I have had on an American course.  Still not sure about the 11th....liked the 12th even with a 2nd ball.  I hit driver, driver, 4 iron!

13th is good little quirky hole.

The Road Hole is my favourite....KBM says I am the 1st to spot the influence...I will not say which hole, it is between me and KBM.

The 16th is a little bi**h of a hole...messes with your head.

The 18th is a superb 'clutch' hole...ask KBM...ha ha

I am proud to have played it with a friend like KBM...if this doesn't get the credit it deserves then raters do not know shit...

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike_Cirba

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2006, 08:53:47 AM »
The pictures do the course NO justice whatsoever.  

The most 'FUN' I have had on an American course.  
I am proud to have played it with a friend like KBM...if this doesn't get the credit it deserves then raters do not know shit...

Brian

Brian,

I'm thinking that there will be a very wide spectrum of opinions on Lederach.  It certainly is anything but your typical modern golf course, and I'm also thinking it's the type of course that will reveal its secrets, subtleties, and strategies over time.  

Most holes allow you to try just about anything, yet depending on hole location, wind,, etc., it seems to me that the "right" plays on any given day would quickly be reduced by those variables.  

I frankly can't think of a shot out there that doesn't require some complex thinking.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2006, 09:20:27 PM »
Anyone on this 'trainspotter' of a website that classes themselves as a golf course geek needs to get on this course and bitch about it!

I am the biggest critic of own work but also of others...ask Tom Paul about my opinions about PVGC or what I thought of TOC...

This is me talking as a friend of KBM..(he talks a lot of shit) but my god what a wife he has...Lederach would never have happened without Lauren....or the 2 SUPERB KIDS...TEAM EFFORT...KBM

Lederach would never have happened without me..  ;D I am oing to take soooo much credit for educating him...(beating him at Brora with Kilfara, Colt essay in the Daley book..) without Rich Goodale...(Dornoch guru) or the that lousy course at St. andrews...i forget what it is called...Old something or other...KBM has more movement in a couple of greens that TOC would love...

Forget Doak...I played Stonewall the day before and that is a niiiiice members course but lederach has BALLS OF STEEL...in it's design....

KBM, I salute you.....be proud!  You know the holes I do not like but well done!!!!

Keep it coming KEL...


« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 09:24:23 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2006, 09:26:51 PM »
Oh, by the way, those guys that think they guessed the Road Hole influence hole....WRONG..

I will reveal all after the 21st of July outing...be embarassed if u do not get it....some muppet from Norway saw it straight away...
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

ForkaB

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2006, 01:18:41 AM »
Of the architects whom I asked for comments when writing my most recent book, "Experience The Old Course--St. Andrews Links" (shameless plug, but encouraged by Ran), Kelly's was easily the most artful.  Seeing the pictures of Lederach demonstrate to me that his expressed thoughts of thinking about the Old Course every time he stands over his drawing board were not only heartfelt but something he has put into his practice.

Well done, Buckaroo!

Matt_Ward

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2006, 02:37:15 PM »
Mike C, et al:

For those who have played Lederach, Hawk Pointe and Morgan Hill I would be most interested in any comments -- as to how these respective courses compare / contrast and in which order you would prefer playing them?

No doubt KBM does some interesting work.

Thanks ...

Mike_Cirba

Re:Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2006, 04:19:07 PM »
Matt,

Good question.

If pressed, I'd say Lederach is the boldest and most unconventional of the three.   It's a shame in some ways that the course is within a housing complex, because the routing is a bit compromised and visually it is not as impressive as it might be.  However, thankfully the setbacks are pretty substantial and there is plenty of room for golf.

I guess of 15 rounds I'd choose 7 at Lederach, 5 at Morgan Hill, and 3 at Hawk Pointe.  

I really enjoy all three of them, but although Hawk Pointe is probably the best land to work with of the three, and is such a good strategic test that I wrote an essay here about it six or so years ago, I think Morgan Hill is a greater accomplishment, and ultimately Lederach would be more consistently intriguing round after round.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2008, 07:32:14 AM »
Bump to hopefully complement Sean Arble's wonderful pictorial essay.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lederach - The Antithesis of Modern Golf
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2008, 08:06:55 AM »
I can't say I was blown away by Lederach, but I was very pleasantly surprised at its quality which is undeniable.  For a muni, this course is a knock out.   Every single hole had something unusual going on.  In a way, this is its strength and one of its weaknesses.  I would like to have seen a lighter touch and a bit more variety with some flatter elements chucked in.  As I say, Kelly erred on the side of boldness which is fair enough.  Like The Road, its not the sort of place I would like to play every week only because of the cart deal and 5 hour round, but if you are the sort that doesn't like Lederach we are not going to agree a lot on what golf courses should be like.   On the Rihcelin Scale I would place Lederach at highly recommended, just a smidgen below 1*.  But personally, because its such a good deal, I would place it much higher on my list of favourites.  Does anybody think Lederach seriously challenges some of the well heeled privates in the area for quality/fun?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing