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John Kavanaugh

Does the club make the man...
« on: June 14, 2006, 09:18:41 AM »
What can you tell about a guy based on what clubs he belongs....Just to keep this on topic...or where he plays...

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2006, 09:31:33 AM »
Let's see...my former club's membership was once described in Philadelphia Magazine as "a cross between The Sopranos and Animal House."

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

wsmorrison

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2006, 09:38:20 AM »
Steve,

I didn't know you were a member of my former club ;D

John,

Whatever you can determine from a man's club or car or house is just a small fraction of what makes a man.  In fact it tells so little (and limited to socio-economic factors) that it is just about meaningless to important components such as honesty, integrity and other character traits.  That is unless these traits are subject to deep due diligence at the club during the membership process.  When clubs hit hard times the character standards are unfortunately lowered in many cases resulting in disharmony that can take generations to overcome.  For clubs that have the only barrier to entry the ability to pay, the only thing you can determine is their ability to pay and of what worth is that?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 09:42:40 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2006, 09:41:54 AM »
Wayne

There's at least one such club on both sides of the river. ;D

Your former club has a much better architectural pedigree than mine.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

wsmorrison

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2006, 09:43:46 AM »
Steve,

Yes, at least it had that going for it.  But it wasn't enough in the long run.  I am thrilled at the change but do miss that wonderful course.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2006, 09:45:45 AM »
 nothing.
AKA Mayday

John Kavanaugh

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2006, 09:54:46 AM »
Isn't it fair to say that I must be an idiot (or an asshole in Tommy's book) to be a member of a Fazio when I could join a Doak that is closer to home and costs one sixth to play. (not counting intiation fees) I'm playing the Doak today and can't wait...

GolfClubAtlas promotes these stereotypes every day....

Isn't it a lock that a member of Friars Head is more interesting than a member of Sage Valley...Is it a dirty secret..

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2006, 10:00:01 AM »
 John,
 
   While you are correct that all members of Fazio courses are assholes some members of Doak courses are also. So, there is the dilemma.
AKA Mayday

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2006, 10:06:46 AM »


It's all about pedigree.  I don't think the club makes the man but certainly the members make the club.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2006, 10:07:07 AM »
John,
 
   While you are correct that all members of Fazio courses are assholes some members of Doak courses are also. So, there is the dilemma.

Who are the safe architects...It would seem being a member of a Flynn would make you both a player and an aficionado...

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2006, 10:11:54 AM »
 John,

   Now you have it. Even if you join a Flynn club as an asshole the constant exposure to the architecture will make you a better man.
AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2006, 10:24:31 AM »
"Even if you join a Flynn club as an asshole the constant exposure to the architecture will make you a better man."

Now, Mike.  There are many examples for this not to be true.  

John, you question if membership at a golf club makes the man.  I'm sure in your many years of experience there isn't one thing in life that makes the man.  A man is defined by how he thinks and acts in marriage, fatherhood, community and clubs.  If you're merely lighting a fire, I don't see the point.  If you're asking a legitimate question, the answer is obvious.

However, it is my hope that my sons will continue to learn proper behavior, respect, courtesy and continuing traditions in the wider circle of relationships at our club as they do within our closer circle of family and friends.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2006, 10:35:06 AM »
Wayne,

I'm not trying to light a fire...I'm just sick of being stereotyped because I belong to a Fazio course.  I could possibly be the only member of a Fazio course on this site that openly posts that fact.  I happen to seem to get off on conflict..or as my son says drama...so why I stick around is questionable at best.  Recently The Alotian decided to not allow Golfweek raters on property while inviting Golf Digest...I'm sure it can be directly related back to this site.  I wonder if their asshole roster is yet full because I would love to play that place...Of course when assholes start to reciprocate you open a whole new can of worms.

wsmorrison

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2006, 10:40:22 AM »
John,

I don't and I don't know anyone who does think negatively about a person for belonging to a certain architect's course.  That sounds like nonsense.  There is no cause and affect between the architect and the member that I know of.  Sometimes your generalizations make no sense at all.

The only negative is these super-expensive clubs that let members in because they can pay.  These clubs are predisposed to having the highest AI (asshole index) on the planet.  Fortunately a Ken Bakst, Dick Youngscap and others follow a better model.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 10:40:39 AM by Wayne Morrison »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2006, 10:42:57 AM »
Wayne,

Here is a quote from Tommy on the WSJ thread..

"Sport languishes from people who want to pony-up that kind of cash for one round of golf, let alone a country club membership that allows them to act like 400 individual assholes. (sorry for the verbiage, but enough is enough!)"

John Kavanaugh

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2006, 10:49:43 AM »
Wayne,

Here is a quote from Bob Crosby...I highlighted the member insult..

Brent -

I've asked myself the same question. When set against the history of gca, Fazio is an odd duck. At a number of levels.

So let me think out loud. The thing that always strikes me about Fazio (and at first you often don't notice it) is that his generous bail-out areas off the tee tend to put you in the best position to approach the green. If that is a fair generalization (and there are exceptions) his designs are both non-strategic and non-penal.

Very odd. Sort of a non-architecture architecture. (That, I think, is at the root of why so many people call him a landscape designer and not a real golf architect. Bascially, I agree. He is not practising "golf" architecture per se. Which is consistent with his lack of interest in (disdain for?)his architectural predecessors. They have nothing to say to a designer with Fazio's program.)

Put differently, Fazio uses hazards to guide the player through the course. Hazards are simple danger signs, players are given lots of room to avoid them and - this is the genius part - by hitting away from the hazard you get an easier approach shot.

That would normally be considered boring, insipid architecture. But Fazio pulls it off because of his remarkable eye for beautiful routings and landscapes combined with a knack for making holes look harder than they are. The two aren't unrelated. No one fakes a great hole better. That's not a minor talent.

I guess where I come out is that Fazio is sui generis. He is different without appearing so. He has stepped outside the usual gca bloodlines. His stuff is not penal, it's not strategic, it's not heroic. His courses look like they embody those things but the teeth are missing. I think a big part of Fazio's appeal to the average member is that after you play his courses a couple of times, they won't intimidate you. As if by magic they will lure you into thinking that you are a better golfer than you really are.  People feel good about themselves in the bar after the round.

Fazio's genuis is to de-emphasize traditional golf values (and the anxieties that go with them) and to emphasize the joys of spending time in beautiful surroundings. As I said, he's a genius to have been the first to see the appeal of this approach. And he has been rewarded generously by the golfing public.

Bob  
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 10:51:12 AM by John Kavanaugh »

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2006, 10:53:31 AM »


Wayne

What is the model that Mr. Bakst and Mr. Youngscap follow?  I find it highly unlikely that many of the candidates for their clubs don't already belong to other clubs.  With that in mind, doesn't part of the judgement become "what other clubs does this person belong to"?

Friar's Head is off to a good start it would seem, but it is still a work in progress and will be for many years.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2006, 10:56:02 AM »
 John,

     That's an insult? I'm glad you highlighted it so I wouldn't miss it.
AKA Mayday

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2006, 11:11:44 AM »
John
My salvo wasn't just intended just at certain or specific clubs that were designed by Tom Fazio, it meant at certain country clubs in general. I'm sorry it came out that way.

On the flip side, I think the members make the club. Point in example: The Plantation or The Palms. Both are great clubs with an excellent membership. One is primary a Men's club, the other a club that welcomes all, yet produces some pretty stout players and pesonalities. Both congragate in buildings that aren't overly pretentious, serve good food and demand that members respect the people that serve and wait on them, for those people also help make up the character and set the mood of just how laid back and nice a person can really have it. They aren't your slave, they should be your pal who just happens to make sure your clubs are clean, your food is good and that your guests are happy.

I myself once belonged to a club, (and this is precisely who I was refering to) where each member basically hated each other. The ironic thing was that the club's name was Friendly Hills! This infamous personality of the club earned them the nick-name, UnFriendly Hills.

The members treated staff like dirt; consistently smiled while cursing beneth their breath of the fellow members they loathed and just simply acted like pompus assholes. The only time the membership ever seemed to come together was when Eric Meeks, who grew-up at the club, won the US Amateur.  That gave the club some sanity for about 4 or 5 months. After that, they went right back to treating staff like doggie do-do and hating one another. Some of them even managed to take one of the more colorful characters of the club, get him involved in some money deal knowing that it would break him, just so they could get him out of the club because he promoted a more fun, enjoyable existence at the place where people paid to congregate. They didn't like him--he needed to go. He eventually lost his home because of it.

Those are the people which I was speaking of when writing my diatribe. Those are the ones.

And as I had told you in the past in a personal conversation that Friedman was probably the type of guy I liked. He built a tremendously respected club which has received many salutations for the class and structure, so much, that it draws from a pretty wide area for membership. Those are the kind of clubs I wish I could belong to. It's the other clubs that I probably have unfairly characterized--in the Caddie Shack-way of characterization that just so happen to be Fazio designed courses.

If it touched a nerve, then, I do apologize.

Cheers

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2006, 11:14:01 AM »
John, sure you can tell some things by the clubs he belongs too, but not as much as a good hour long conversation will tell you about him.

John Goodman

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2006, 11:15:06 AM »
John -

Is it worse on here in your view to be a member of a club with a Fazio course, or a Rees Jones course?  Which would be worse on the asshole/ignoramus scales?

 

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2006, 11:18:11 AM »
Some of them even managed to take one of the more colorful characters of the club, get him involved in some money deal knowing that it would break him, just so they could get him out of the club because he promoted a more fun, enjoyable existence at the place where people paid to congregate. They didn't like him--he needed to go. He eventually lost his home because of it.


That's pretty facked up.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

wsmorrison

Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2006, 11:19:10 AM »
John,

I happen to think that the Bob Crosby posting you refer to was remarkable.  It put into words what I could not about the general design tendencies of Fazio and his appeal.  This isn't to say everyone of Fazio's courses have the exact same methodology and appeal.  Nor is every membership so homogeneous as to draw the conclusions you do.  From everything I heard about Victoria National it is a wonderful course.  A very good friend of mine said it may be his best and is a rightful top 100-type golf course.  I highly regard his ability to consider golf course architecture so I am open minded.

HBH,

From my understanding through visits and discussions Bakst, Youngscap and others are not letting financial decisions dictate the membership admissions process.  They are willing to defer admissions to a process that ensures a harmonious membership.  This to me is as important as the quality of golf or else I may not have dropped my former home club.  First and foremost are the right people.  Of course clubs like Friars Head and Sand Hills are often secondary clubs and it is possible to check through a network of sources as to the qualities of the potential members.  But just because they're a member of a club with great architecture (or architect) doesn't mean they are a member of a club with great membership in general or themselves in particular.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 11:32:00 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2006, 11:20:55 AM »
JK,

I have openly posted (although not as often) that I am in fact a member of a Fazio course as well.  No one has ever made me feel like an asshole at all, either online or in person.

In terms of Bob's post, the highlighted portion does not sound like Victoria National to me at any level, and it certainly doesn't sound like my course.  Maybe it applies to some of his courses, but certainly not all. Fazio has a certain stereotype on here, some of it deserved, some of it not,  but  I have never seen it as a negatively refection of the character of membership.


John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does the club make the man...
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2006, 11:21:44 AM »

It's all about pedigree.  I don't think the club makes the man but certainly the members make the club.

This is an interesting topic for me.  Let's see if I make sense talking about it.

Since I've been a member of GCA, I have joined a couple golf clubs as a national member.  I went shopping for the clubs that suited me best.  I don't think that's how it works at the older, more prestigious clubs.  In those cases, potential new members are identified and asked to join.

In order to join the very best, "old money" clubs, it seems one must either be a blood relative of an existing member, or achieve great personal success and notoriety.  It's a meritocratic system, only it extends back for generations.

I haven't achieved great personal success; I'm still working on it.  My dad was a member at Stanford Golf Club, because the university used to grant membership to employees who wished to join, a privilege they have since discontinued.  So since my primary objective was to join clubs with great golf courses, my search was largely confined to new clubs actively soliciting membership.  Actually, this suits me fine in both respects.  I am a fan of modern course design, and socially I fit in better with the younger, less connected membership these newer clubs feature.

In fact, both sides of my family actively eschewed the privilege and prestige of high society.  My mother's father was a great success story, a country boy from Washington state with a eighth grade education, who became a high ranking executive in New York City.  Despite their great success, my grandparents always felt a little inferior to the well educated, well connected families they associated with, and never joined any of the prestigious clubs they would have been gladly accepted to.  My parents met at Cornell University, and shortly thereafter moved west to California, partly to escape the more stratified east coast society (but mostly because of the weather and great opportunity for science minded men).

I played golf last weekend at one of my clubs, Kinloch Golf Club in Richmond, Virginia.  Kinloch is an interesting study.  It's a new club, but the local membership is already full.  The local Richmond community has put their considerable financial might behind this young club, and it shows.  Both newer and older members of Richmond's finest are represented.  To me, this club exudes class.  I'm grateful to have been accepted.  It's a great place.

I played in a member-member with a gentleman who comes from a more privileged background, perhaps a second or third generation member of east coast society.  He and I didn't click very well.  I had a good time, but he thought I was quite bossy and controlling.  While that may have been somewhat true, I felt there were deeper social differences.  (Most GCAers I've met would agree I'm not a real bossy person.)  At some level I am irreverent of the privileged society.  I don't like it.  Because of inheritance, I get to see it firsthand these days, but I always feel like an outsider, just like my parents and grandparents before me.

I guess I'm trying to make the point that somebody you may think is an asshole might be another man's best friend.  It depends on your perspective.  (I want to point out I modified this, because the original edit had a problem)

Now that I have completely reverted to my country roots, and am back living in the forests of the great Northwest, I wish to be immediately considered for Hillbilly Tour Card membership.  Y'all can play with me at these great new courses.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 08:40:14 PM by John Kirk »