[David Ober]

Playing Black Horse this coming Saturday morning followed by a practice round at Pebble in the afternoon and then a practice round Sunday morning at Poppy.

[Tim Leahy]

Most putts break toward Monterey Bay even if they don't look it. Bayonet is a better overall course, but Black Horse from the back tees can be harder especially if the wind is up.

[David Ober]

Most putts break toward Monterey Bay even if they don't look it. Bayonet is a better overall course, but Black Horse from the back tees can be harder especially if the wind is up.

I wanted to play Bayonet, but only the back nine is open right now due to renovations.

Why is Bayonet better?

[David_Tepper]

David -

Bayonet is the longer, "tougher" course, that hosts most of the tournaments held there. I remember endless, densely tree-lined fairways.

The Blackhorse course is shorter, with a number of dogleg holes. It is more of a "fun" course.

DT  
   

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

Do a search and you will hopefully find that these courses have been discussed many times - dare I say ad nauseam - in here.

For your purposes as a competitive player, Bayonet is the more straightforward, fair test.  Blackhorse is kinda quirky, with some very tight doglegs and strange elevation changes.  Both courses are indeed very tough though - very tight.  I'm not sure either is good preparation for the State Am though as they are each very different from Pebble Beach and Spyglass... but what the hell, Pebble will Spyglass will seem wide open and easy compared to these two.

In any case, David T. has it right - Bayonet is tougher, Blackhorse is more fun.  But there are some tippy-tip tees at Blackhorse that suck most of the fun right out of it... by that I mean it becomes very very difficult from those.

I used to love Bayonet, as you think it's tight now... back in the day it was absolutely claustrophobic, with wall to wall trees and underbrush straight to the ground... It was the sternest most unfair stupidest test of golf one could ever imagine, and for that, I loved it - it was unique.  It's infinitely more fair these days as it has undergone pretty massive tree removal.  That's usually a good thing - in this case, they ripped out the soul of the course and it's reason for existence.

But that's the part that's been discussed ad nauseam.  Not many agree with me about it.

TH

[Nick Church]

I first learned the game on Bayonet & Blackhorse back in 1985.  My dad was stationed at Fort Ord, and our subdivision was adjacent to the back nine of Bayonet.  A friend of mine was the house immediately behind the 11th green at Bayonet.

Our middle school classes overlooked the back nine of Black Horse.  Shear torture for brand new golf nuts like us (especially in Math class).

Anyway, I'm nostalgic, but I love those courses.  I was ecstatic to know that the courses evolved into public facilities.

After 20 years, I will finally have the chance to play those courses once again.  I am scheduled to visit Monterey over Labor Day weekend.  I even have finally made it onto Pebble.  I never even sniffed it back then --- $180 was a lot for an Army family to swallow for golf.  Spyglass on Friday, Pebble on Monday.  And Here's hoping my pro knows somebody at Cypress - ha.

Anyway, I'm biased, but if the courses are in half way decent shape ---- well, they are a lot of fun.  Except of Bayonet 16th --- that sidehill fairway is a killer.

[Tom Huckaby]

Nick:

If you haven't played the courses since 1985, you are going to be SHOCKED by what you see. I swear the place is gonna look positively treeless to you.  Do report back after Labor Day...

I loved the courses too in 1985.  Today?  Well......

[Nick Church]

Wow.  You're kidding.  The thick tree stands were some of the best I've ever seen.

Does anyone have pictures (their website is not helpful in that regard)?

Totally bumming.

[Tom Huckaby]

Nick - oh, don't get me wrong - a lot of trees are still there - in fact if one never saw it in the 80s, one would still call it pretty tight and tree-lined.  But you know what it was... all of the underbrush has been cleared, most of the large over-hanging limbs have been trimmed, a lot of trees have been removed completely.  You'll see....

Picture #1 Bayonet... you can now easily see over into 2 fairway.  Before that was a wall of trees that not even light could penetrate...

Which to most is great.  To me, and I'd guess you, it is indeed pretty bumming.

[cary lichtenstein]

I never liked Bayonett, tough and no fun

[Jonathan Cummings]

I agree with Cary - tough but no fun.  I never liked either course and am with Gib in thinking they are hugely over-rated.

JC

[James Bennett]

Wow.  You're kidding.  The thick tree stands were some of the best I've ever seen.

Does anyone have pictures (their website is not helpful in that regard)?

Totally bumming.

Nick

I visited in early April, but didn't play (had a plane to catch in San Fran).  Despite the wet conditions, Fort Ord was very firm.  But also very military in feel.  It was well patronised and the people playimg were having fun.

Some photos from holes near the clubhouse.  The initial photos are holes to the west, the latter to the north and east (including he 'sidehill' hole referred to elsewhere.  I don't have photos away from the clubhouse.















James B

[Craig Van Egmond]

The Bayonet is a brute that sucks the fun right out of the game.  Black Horse is slightly easier, but still nothing special.  They are like badges of honor, shooting a low score is something to brag about. I can't remember what a Doak 3 is but they are no more than that.

The only cool thing about my experience there was that it was the first time I got to play with the mighty Huckster.

[Tom Huckaby]

These pics illustrate the tree situation well... obviously there are still a lot there, but imagine not even being able to see light past the tree line - that's pretty much how it was before.

And it was a paragon of silly brutality... an absloutely beautiful test of the game.  I did love it so.

But as for those calling these courses over-rated, again I ask, where are they at all rated highly to begin with?

I don't recall ever seeing any person or magazine rate them all that highly... I have waxed poetic about what Bayonet used to be, but I remain weird about that anyway.

[Nick Church]

Thanks for the pictures.  I am sending them to the friend I mentioned who lived behind the 11th Bayonet.  He's upset that he's not making the trip on Labor Day.

The trees aren't quite as bad as I thought (given these photos).  However, Tom, you're right --- the trees used to be thick and dark.  My friends and I picked up where others left off --- the trenches and foxholes along the 12th fairway.  We hung out in these areas --- watching the golfers, finding "lost" balls, and general mischief (BMX bikes, flashlight tag, war games, and spin the bottle).

I was first learning the game and could barely break 100.  I played most Black Horse, but in a year i "graduated" to Bayonet.  By my Freshman year in high school, I was confident enough to shoot in the 90s (and flirt with 89) on Bayonet.  I loved playing the course.  Maybe I am too nostaglic, but I just didn't think the courses were that brutal (certainly not like Purgatory in Indiana whose expressed purpose is to beat you up).

I've enjoyed arguing the points and considering each of your opinions.

[Tom Huckaby]

Nick:

I can understand if you grew up playing Bayonet all the time, it wouldn't seem overly brutal to you - it was just the golf course next door.  But for those of us used to playing more open courses, not featuring wall to wall daylight-blocking trees and underbrush down to the ground such that 75% of shots hit into the tree line were either lost or unplayable, well... yes it was a paragon of brutality.  It really did seem to me that it's reason to exist was to kick your ass. Hell it even had a section called Combat Corner for god's sake.

My I did love it so.  It went against everything I usually like in golf courses - I am usually all about fun and could care less for tests of golf - but Bayonet was just such an over the top perfect test, it was always the barometer of one's game.  Think you're good?  Break 80 from the tips at Bayonet.

A little of that is still there, but the soul has been torn out.

Oh well. Thanks for letting me reminisce.

 

[James Bennett]

Tom Huckaby

if I may try to paraphrase your feelings for Bayonnet/Blackhorse, for the purpose of understanding what we try to balance when changes are made to a fundamental, defining characteristic of a course ....(with apologies to Austin Powers)

The tree removal has made it a better course, but has removed its mojo!

From my limited experience, a course that is overtreed today may well have been an outstanding test 20 years ago when the trees were not necessarily mature.  As the trees reach maturity the test becomes more extreme, more difficult, more memorable for a variety of reasons  but not necessarily better.  Then comes the maintenance stage - how do you deal with the maintenance issues on turf resulting from over-crowding by the trees.  Then senesence (old-age) sets in causing another maintenance issue. (I think I'm going through that stage myself).

My point about a course improving but being percieved as losing its mojo is not limited to trees.  On my wanderings (literally, in search of a distillery) through Scotland, I stumbled on Boat of Garten and in my 20 minute visit I stumbled on the Club's Course Chairmen.  Their main priority was managing the rough, in particular the balance between silver birch, heather and gorse.  Their first rule was to have one or the other (generally silver birch where holes were adjacent, heather in other areas, and as little gorse as possible) but to never have two or three in an area.  For a small club, this was the constant battle and enables a sustainable course to be presented over time.  

A little maintenance often helps to retain the course with its mojo.

James B

[Bob_Huntley]

If you go back into the archives you will see that I wrote about a USGA Open Qualifying tournament back in the early seventies.

My memory is not what it once was, but I think it was in late May. It was sprinkling with rain, the course was wet and the cypress trees  had not been trimmed and the lower branches were at grass height. Out of about a hundred players, pros and amateurs, I think something like twenty players broke eighty. It was a Greek tragedy. Players shooting in the high seventies were absolutely ecstatic .

Many years later, Simon Hobday, an old friend from Rhodesian days played 36 holes and led the field in qualifying for his Senior card. He said that it was the hardest course he had ever played in his life, when his very life depended on qualifying.

Today it quite the pussy cat.

Bob

[johnk]

I agree with Bob.  Pre-tree clearing, Bayonet was an evil brute.  Now it's a normal tree-lined course.  I think it's a fun place to play.

However, I have a hard time going there because all I can do on the back nine is imagine how incredible the course would be if they removed ALL of the trees.  It would look like a rugged heath/heather land, with the riparian landscape between the holes adding a lot of texture.

The open-ness wouldn't detract from the shot values, I don't think.  And the property is HUGE, so there's plenty of room between holes.

And of course, it would have incredible views.  The back nine is hilly, and would have miles-long promontory views out to the ocean .

I think the course would be a lot better if they removed literally ALL of the trees - and I'm not normally a hard-core anti-arborian.

[Tom Huckaby]

Yes!

Bob and John are both right on, and James captured my feelings perfectly.  It is a "better" golf course today, but it's mojo has been removed.  Now only if we had a time machine like Austin Powers did, so I could go back and convince them of what a unique course they had... either that or cheat on the lottery (remember I have a time machine), use the winnings to buy the course and keep it how I like it!  

John you make a GREAT point though - one I had never thought of - and I think about this course a lot.    That could be one hell of a wild, fun course if it were made treeless... It just sucks to me how in going half-way, the mojo is gone.

TH

[Mike_Golden]

Huck,

You are one sick puppy about the 'mojo' of Bayonet

As for me, I really like both courses the way they are today and didn't see where the untrimmed trees added anything to the enjoyment or made it this great challenge.  All it did, if you hit it right or left, was put you out of play and added penalty shots.  What was so strategic about that?

Why not talk about the subtle greens that are almost always kept really fast, several outstanding golf holes (#5 in particular), and the quirky nature of the back 9, particularly 11-13?

By the way, it was before my time, but Lake Merced had the same kind of untrimmed trees that made errant tee shots lost balls and penalty shots-just think how tough that course would be like that.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

There was absolutely NOTHING strategic about it.  It was a pure test of ball-striking.  I didn't find it particularly fun in any way - it was a nasty mean bitch of a course, exposing all weaknesses in one's game with a clarity usually reserved for a stern father.

And I did love it so.  That was it's mojo; and it was very unique in that respect.  

I can't imagine the good folks at Lake Merced would have ever been sick enough to allow the type of overhangs and underbrush that Bayonet did.  But oh yes, if so, that would have been brutish as well.

In any case, yes the course is eminently more playable as well.

It just has completely lost its soul.

Good call re the greens, btw - thank god nothing has changed re those.  But don't get me started on the asinine new tees at 11 and 12.... combined with the tree trimming there, well... talk about hole-ruiners... all uniqueness completely stripped away toward the goal of making the holes "fair."  To me these are like taking out the wall and the hotel and the road from the Road hole... yep, it would be more fair all right... it would just be completely soul-less.  That's what they've done to Bayonet.  11-13 USED to be very unique, very cool, very quirky, fantastic golf holes - the lynchpins of COMBAT CORNER.

Today they are very fair golf holes, and I mean that in an equitable sense as well as judgment of quality.

TH

TH

[Mike Benham]

Come on Huck, you must be speaking of Bayonet in the eyes of a 5 handicapper.  How does it rate for a high handicapper.  If it was a test of ball-striking, it must have been death for the 25 ...

And it's OK to have a brutal test of golf ...

[Mike_Golden]

Mike:

There was absolutely NOTHING strategic about it.  It was a pure test of ball-striking.  I didn't find it particularly fun in any way - it was a nasty mean bitch of a course, exposing all weaknesses in one's game with a clarity usually reserved for a stern father.

And I did love it so.  That was it's mojo; and it was very unique in that respect.  

I can't imagine the good folks at Lake Merced would have ever been sick enough to allow the type of overhangs and underbrush that Bayonet did.  But oh yes, if so, that would have been brutish as well.

In any case, yes the course is eminently more playable as well.

It just has completely lost its soul.

Good call re the greens, btw - thank god nothing has changed re those.  But don't get me started on the asinine new tees at 11 and 12.... combined with the tree trimming there, well... talk about hole-ruiners... all uniqueness completely stripped away toward the goal of making the holes "fair."  To me these are like taking out the wall and the hotel and the road from the Road hole... yep, it would be more fair all right... it would just be completely soul-less.  That's what they've done to Bayonet.  11-13 USED to be very unique, very cool, very quirky, fantastic golf holes - the lynchpins of COMBAT CORNER.

Today they are very fair golf holes, and I mean that in an equitable sense as well as judgment of quality.

TH

TH

Huck,

I don't think I've played the new tees on 11 and 12, it's been about a year since I was last there.  11 always mystified me anyway as I had no idea what club or where to hit my drive.  I probably needed to play it a few more times on a regular basis to figure out a good strategy for my own game.

Lake Merced used to have lots of cypress trees that went all the way to the ground, probably not in the same quantities as Bayonet but enough to make it more difficult than it plays today.

Again, I fail to see how getting penalized 2 shots for a lost ball when you hit it 10 yards off the fairway can be considered fair, fun, or even rewarding in some way, shape or form.  It's the same way you feel when you're playing in NorCal and you hit one up into a cypress tree only to see it stay up there.  That's happened to me several times on the approach shot to #18 at Lake Merced with the tree that overhangs the green as well as on #18 at Cypress Point.  It's just one of those penalties where the punishment far exceeds the crime.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

The only Bayonet was completely unfair, and thus completely fair.  That is, the penalties were mind-bogglingly over the top severe - but you knew exactly where they were.  It was a perfect examination of one's game - and that's how it was rewarding.  It was absolutely unique in this respect.  It was our ultimate test - when we thought we were good, we'd go play Bayonet and be proven otherwise.  

I did love it.

As for 11, that's the whole point.  From the old tee, I'd defy any first-timer to pick the proper line - which is in fact farther left you can possibly believe, deeply over the trees.  Again, it was silly and totally unfair - but also very, very unique.  Today's tee is way down to the right, making it almost a straight hole - it's eminently fair, and eminently average.

They did the same sort of butchery to 12... please do not get me started on that hole... I weep for it.  It was absolutely unique before - today it's a tough hole, but nothing you won't see elsewhere.

TH

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