Personal Doak rankings

[Jonathan Cummings]

Ordered from best-to-less best of the ones I've played...

Barnbougle Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Stonewall
Apache Stronghold
Wilderness Valley
Stonewall North
Lost Dunes
Stone Eagle
St Andrews Beach
Beechtree
Heathlands
Tumble Creek
High Point
Riverfront

jay (bring on the bombshells) cee

[John Kavanaugh]

Pacific Dunes
Quail Crossing

Isn't that helpful...

[Tom_Doak]

John K's rankings aren't too much help but at least he has them in the right order ... I think I can say that much without offending anybody.

Imagine Jordan Wall's reaction when he reads that "the best course in Washington" is only 13th among my own work!  Note to Jordan:  I think it belongs somewhere above 13th, it just doesn't fit Jon Cummings' tastes.

[Dan Kelly]

Imagine Jordan Wall's reaction when he reads that "the best course in Washington" is only 13th among my own work!  Note to Jordan:  I think it belongs somewhere above 13th, it just doesn't fit Jon Cummings' tastes.

Tom --

Where does it belong, above 13th?

And what belongs below it?

And does that mean that the courses below it don't fit *your* tastes?  

Dan

[Jordan Wall]

Tumble Creek is probably a 6 or a 7.

[Dan Herrmann]

Riverfront at the bottom?  We were thinking about making a road trip down there.

Ran's review looks good.  (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/riverfront1.html  )

[Brad Tufts]

I dunno how much help this will be either, but:

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Stonewall
3. Apache Stronghold
4. Heathland (although only one play, at age 15 or 16)

Played after beginning Restoration or Consulting work:

1. Essex County Club (MA) (master plan, rebuild greens, 2000)
2. Ekwanok GC (master plan, rebuild bunkers, 1999)
3. Mid-Ocean Club (master plan, rebuild bunkers, 1997)
4. Cape Arundel GC (consulting, rebuild bunkers, 1996)
5. Oak Hill GC (MA) (master plan, rebuild bunkers & greens, 1995)
6. York Golf & Tennis Club (consulting, rebuild bunkers, 1998)

I've played Misquamicut, but before work was done there in 2005.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Imagine Jordan Wall's reaction when he reads that "the best course in Washington" is only 13th among my own work!  Note to Jordan:  I think it belongs somewhere above 13th, it just doesn't fit Jon Cummings' tastes.

Sad state of affairs that Doaks average work is still better than 100 years of others work in the entire State of Washington.  

Anyone have any ideas why that has come to pass?

[Lou_Duran]

Jonathan is my hero.

Pacific
Rawls
Stone Eagle

[Scott_Burroughs]

A quick-and-dirty list:

Pacific Dunes
Lost Dunes
tie:
  Beechtree
  Stonewall I
  Stone Eagle (outstanding green complexes make up for
                          severity of site)
Atlantic City CC  (Wayne M., please no finger wagging... )
Riverfront
Heathland

[Sean Leary]

Imagine Jordan Wall's reaction when he reads that "the best course in Washington" is only 13th among my own work!  Note to Jordan:  I think it belongs somewhere above 13th, it just doesn't fit Jon Cummings' tastes.

Sad state of affairs that Doaks average work is still better than 100 years of others work in the entire State of Washington.  

Anyone have any ideas why that has come to pass?

Cos,

The land nearest the biggest population centers isn't the greatest, and  best "old dead guys" never came to build anything...Hence we have a few of solid Macan's and the like.

[George Pazin]

I wish more people would get down to Lubbock, I'd love to hear some others' views, besides Lou's, Don's, Adam's and Matt's.

There is going to be one angry Australian after he reads JC's post.

Dan Herrman -

One of the more interesting comments I remember Tom making was that Riverfront was the same course as Pac Dunes, just on different land (paraphrased here). I took it to mean that it was designed on the same principles. I think that would be a really interesting experiment, to play it and see if you can understand what Tom means.

[Jason Topp]

I've only played Stone Eagle and Barnbougle and I have no idea how you would rank them.  Its a bit like ranking a scotch against a gin.  The outcome depends more on whether you like scotch or gin rather than the quality of the courses.

[Gene Greco]

I've only played Stone Eagle and Barnbougle.....

Jason:

    I'm not sure I'd use the word "only" in your particular case.

That's like someone asking you where you have flown to and replying that I "only" have taken a rocket ship to the moon.

[Will E]

Glad to see Jon giving Black Forest some notice. It really is worthy of more recognition.

[astavrides]

I would put stone eagle way above beechtree.

A quick-and-dirty list:

Pacific Dunes
Lost Dunes
tie:
  Beechtree
  Stonewall I
  Stone Eagle (outstanding green complexes make up for
                          severity of site)
Atlantic City CC  (Wayne M., please no finger wagging... )
Riverfront
Heathland

[astavrides]

I wish more people would get down to Lubbock, I'd love to hear some others' views, besides Lou's, Don's, Adam's and Matt's.

There is going to be one angry Australian after he reads JC's post.

Dan Herrman -

One of the more interesting comments I remember Tom making was that Riverfront was the same course as Pac Dunes, just on different land (paraphrased here). I took it to mean that it was designed on the same principles. I think that would be a really interesting experiment, to play it and see if you can understand what Tom means.

To me, Stone Eagle was the same course as Pacific Dunes, just on different land-as far as green complexes and fairways that connect to each other in places.  I don't see that at Riverfront at all.  There are some good holes there, but it was mostly a 'single file' course thru a housing development.  I have only played it and Pacific Dunes once though.  

Dan, If you are planning a road trip to riverfront, I hope you have some other good courses to play on the trip, or other activities planned, otherwise its a long way to go just to play riverfront.

[Michael Robin]

Another voice, a little Nouveau Doak, but I'm working on it:

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Barnbougle Dunes
3. Cape Kidnappers
4. Stone Eagle
5. St. Andrews Beach
6. Sheep Ranch
7. Stonewall

Looking forward to seeing where Ballyneal and Tumble Creek fall in later this summer.

[Evan Fleisher]

I would put stone eagle way above beechtree.

A quick-and-dirty list:

Pacific Dunes
Lost Dunes
tie:
  Beechtree
  Stonewall I
  Stone Eagle (outstanding green complexes make up for
                          severity of site)
Atlantic City CC  (Wayne M., please no finger wagging... )
Riverfront
Heathland

I guess I'd have to agree with Alex's assessment...and since those are the only two Doak's I've played that's all I can comment on.  Will get my third Doak course in early July...can't wait!

[Jonathan Cummings]

I was only considering full designs not re-designs.

At some point I have to fully justify my low ranking of Stone Eagle and Tumble - I've played Stone 3 times and Tumble once and stick by my relative rankings.  Here's a 'Cliff notes' explanation of my list.

I obviously place ocean courses high on my personal list.  I think Apache is a full two points better than Stone, Tumble and even Stonewall as far as variety of holes and connectivity - how well the course flows from hole-to-hole.  The housing at Riverfront is a huge detraction to an otherwise interesting course.  Lost Dune’s highway knocks it down several points (it is an excellent architectural design but not a place I would care to play often).  Wilderness is just the opposite - an early design with less mature bunkering but an excellent routing with cohesiveness and rhythm.  I've never liked High Point's front nine.  Parts of Tumble’s back nine remind me of a Florida course.  Stone's unwalkable tortured site makes this place impossible to rank highly.  It is unfortunate because I think Stone has some of the most brilliant bunkering in golf - modern or classic!  The Ren boys have become the best in the business at bunkers.  I place Stonewall South higher than North simply because it is stronger.  If I were a member though, I'd play the North more than the South.  I have always liked Heathlands and think because it is in Myrtle it is less well thought of.  I love Beechtree's finish but have problems remembering much of the front (only played it once).

JC
 

[Mike Nuzzo]

JAY CEE - where is the cliff note on St. Andrews Beach?
How can the Highway remove several points - 8 to a 5?
I've seen the highway from the clubhouse/entrance - you're right it didn't look small - but several golfweek points seems harsh.

For me...

Pac Dunes
Texas Tech - excellent without a single view... and a lot of fun.
Apache Stronghold - I only walked on a frost delayed morning - hard to say.

[Tom_Doak]

It is when people start to explain their rankings when I realize how silly rankings really are ... sorry Jon, but since several of your caveats have little or nothing to do with my actual design, it's disappointing to think that's what makes the difference in the GOLFWEEK voting.

It's one thing to say that these are your favorite courses and that's why, but it's another to say that these are my best courses and that's why.

[Kyle Harris]

Beechtree

Done.

 

[James Bennett]

Beechtree is the second best Doak course that I have played.

And St Andrews Beach is the second worst Doak course that I have played.





And I would gladly play at either of my Doak experiences tomorrow, and look forward to it.  I guess a Bass Straight crossing to that forgotten country of Tasmania is looming in the spring, for my third experience (Barnbougle).

James B

James B

[Jonathan Cummings]

Thomas - who said anything about GW?  As the title implies these are personal rankings and my personal observations only.  For a player I view a golf course as a package and I reserve the right to evaluate it in its entirety, not just from any single standpoint, architectural or non-architectural.  Magazine ratings are governed by criteria and/or scale and have limited relation to my list above.

JC