TKP-V: Event Report, Course Impressions, Next Year?

[Tom Huckaby]

TD:

Great stuff.  But as long as you're here, set me straight:  what is the benefit (if any) of hugging the left side off the tee on #10?  I get that doing so avoids the large fall-off on the right, and thus shortens the hole, but is that it?

I want to move this one from least fave status.  Help me out.

 

[Tim Leahy]

Just got back from PS and would like to thank Tommy and everyone else who set up this event, one of the best ever. Evening and clubhouse conversations were as good as the golf, and that's saying something.

Unfortunately I played to my 14 hdcp, but still found Stone Eagle to be a fun experience. It seemed as though you could miss right and long and still be in play, left was dead. Without the forecaddy I would not have been close on reading the greens due to the vistas from the greens. I chose to skip the afternoon round on Sunday and just enjoy the BBQ and focus on Monday morning. I would love to get another shot at this course in winter, in season.

As far as rating, I would put it on par with any course built in Cali in the last 50 years without a doubt. I am a huge Spyglass fan and would put it on par with Stone Eagle, both 8's in my book. I am not an architecture expert, but every hole was unique and challenging. I would drive 100 miles out of the way for the views alone, nothing like it in the PS area.

Favorite hole was the rock island green par three.
Least was #4, visually a trick hole, best shot is a right miss drive.

Can't wait for next year, hopefully in better weather in Nocal, is Olympic, Lake Merced and SFCC asking too much? Sorry Tommy your spoiling us.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:  If you avoid going down to the right, you have a MUCH more comfortable look at the second shot to the main portion of the green, and you also don't have to judge the extra effect of the elevation change.

That big contour was there from the start -- we actually flattened the fairway a bit if you can believe it.  The fairway reminded me of #16 at National (with the deep bowls on either side) and the original #14 at Camargo (where the deep hollow to the right was once fairway).  Had I cited those precedents before, the hole might have been talked about differently but that just goes to show you the effect of sacred cows on this site.

[Tom Huckaby]

TD:

Very cool.  Yes, one does avoid blindness hugging the left, and also remains on the same level.  For some that might be enough to want to tempt the left... I don't mind blindness all that much nor does trying to resist an uphill shot make this worth the risk of going into the rocks on the left.  Given the fairway tilts that way from the center, well....

I'm not changing my advice as a caddie there to anything but "smash it down the middle".  But if they ask for more, I would cite these small advantages of staying left.

It is a very tough golf hole.  And heck if this is one's least fave, that actually says a lot as it is a pretty damn good golf hole.

In any case, so far I'm the only one citing it as a least fave, or giving any critique of it - all others seem to love the hole.  So perhaps the sacred cow references weren't needed after all?

 

[Lou_Duran]

Can someone direct me to the source of a routing map for Stone Eagle?

If possible, I generally agree with Huckaby and Moriarty regarding the course.  The following are some of my thoughts on SE I shared by email with others.


"Regarding Stone Eagle, it is clearly a stunning, breathtaking course (literally and figuratively).  Fortuitously, my flight home early Wednesday morning gave me a great view of the course from the air.  Of the three courses we played, SE is heads and shoulders the most sexy and the one likely to draw more strong opinions.  How gorgeous and menacing was #18 on Sunday with its back left pin position?

With the caveats offered by others (heat, the need for additional play), I tend to agree with Tom Huckaby in his overall assessment of the greens and surrounds.  I would also add that the par 3s (as I recall three of them are drop shots) don't have a lot of variety, and play rather short.  Two or three of the downhill par 4s also seemed to be repetitive (hit it down the right side with a short iron to the green).  I thought that the par 5s were outstanding for most golfers, though I question whether they offer much of a challenge for really good players like Fortson.  For my money, the design could have traded less slope in the internal contouring of the greens for some additional length, a long par 3, and more holes diagonally across the mountains (as opposed to mostly up and down).

I fear that Stone Eagle will appeal to a select few, and people who don't carry the ball very far (and often have trouble pitching the ball and executing longer sand shots) will be frustrated.  No doubt that the principals of the club and Tom Doak know the market and have planned accordingly.  Personally, I would welcome the opportunity to play it again when it is cooler.  In my opinion, Tom's work is not easily or fairly judged in just a couple of times around the course."

"From my perspective, Stone Eagle's routing with its winding, potentially dangerous cart paths alone prevents it from being an elite course.  Include the severity of the green complexes- something that seems to have become Tom's metier- and the raw nature of the surroundings, I have some doubts that the place will be a great success as envisioned (of course, I don't hold myself to be the arbiter of what will do well in that market segment).

The bottom line, Stone Eagle is a must play if for no other reason that it will evoke thought and, hopefully, provoke discussion.  It is a course which begs the question whether such difficult sites should be developed, and brings to light the very contemporary issue regarding the rationality of spending large amounts of money for these types of golf developments and ongoing maintenance."

[Scott_Burroughs]

Lou,

I thought the course was a lot of fun, despite the fact that I was about as wild as can be off the tee.   I agree with you about the par 3's as a whole.  I liked each hole individually, but all 4 were downhill, lacking in variety in that sense (#7 is big drop shot vs. others) and the fact that they played short.  I hit nothing longer than a 7-iron on any par 3.  Same with the right-to-left sloping downhill par 4's.  Individually, they are fine holes, but 3 of them similar lacked variety.  As for the par 5's, all excellent in the r/r aspect and no different from most Ross courses in the fact that all were reachable.

To get a routing plan, go to:

http://www.stoneeagleclub.com/

and click on "golf course", then "tour" for a rough routing.


To others re: about #4 and #14 being trouble for pulls/draws/hooks off the tee....don't do it (I did it once).  Not every hole should be amenable to both draws AND fades.  

As for the greens and surrounds, I thought they were incredible, also despite me not knowing where any shot of mine was going those 2 rounds.  Most diabolical pin:  front left on #13.  Even though it's wide open vs. back pin on #10, just try keeping even a short approach on there.

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:  I love that front left pin on 13.  It's as hard as we can make one.

In the Renaissance Cup last year, I was out of the hole after hitting my second shot in the hazard, and my partner pulls his third shot left of the green with the pin on the top left.  He has no way of getting it close except to hit the flagstick with his pitch -- and he hits the flagstick, it rattles out, and he taps in for five.  Our opponent (a client) had hit three nice shots to the middle of the green and three-putted for six and lost the hole, when it looked impossible for us to get a half.

[rjsimper]

Scott:  I love that front left pin on 13.  It's as hard as we can make one.

I posed this question to my group, but maybe best to pose it here -

Tougher pin to get to... front left on 13 at Stone Eagle or the extreme front left to 18 at Pacific Dunes?

[Tom Huckaby]

Scott:  I love that front left pin on 13.  It's as hard as we can make one.

So you ARE sadistic after all.  I knew it!
 

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:  Depends on how you phrase the question.  If you're trying to get to the pin at Stone Eagle in two, well, good luck.  But with a wedge shot from the right half of the fairway for your third, it's doable but tricky ... and it's easier still if your third shot is a putt.

The 18th green at Pacific Dunes really isn't that steep at the left front, not nearly as severe as the green at Stone Eagle, although it usually plays downwind in summer.  You just have to know how far short of the green to land your approach.

Tom H:  I have been thinking about the 10th fairway at Stone Eagle and want to go back there for a minute.  A lot of my reasoning for a fairway that severe is to try and reward a player who can hit a tee shot to a relatively small area.  There has to be seventy yards of playable ground on every hole so it's not Lost Ball National -- but when I make a fairway that has thirty yards on the high side and fifty on the low side, I am rewarding the player who has the guts to hedge to the left side.  It's a decent alternative to putting in tons of fairway bunkers which are going to get repetitive after a while.

P.S.  I would never aim at the middle of the high side of that fairway, because my miss is sometimes a pull ... but I do aim left center (at the top of the Den at Ten) and if I don't fade it too much it will stay up top.

[Tom Huckaby]

TD:

That's good stuff re #10.  In the overall context of the course, heck yeah it's great to have at least a few holes where an accurate driver is rewarded.  That's exactly why I said I loved #4 - it rewarded me (generally accurate driver) and seems to have frustrated the hell out of many others here.  

I'm just not getting how I am rewarded on 10... at least not comensurate with the risk involved.  I still can't see why I should ever flirt with the left.

And while I am with you that fairway bunkers surely can get repetitive, well... if there were flattish bunkers down that left side rather than slope into the rocks, I'd change my tune, and might take the risk.  Fairway bunkers are one thing, rocks clearly marked as OB (which it was last weekend - seems odd - not sure if it's supposed to be) are another.

But this could be just me, for sure.  Others might want to avoid the blindness and stay on the same level way more than I care about that.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

In regards to the 13th, I've been about 15 yards putting it on the green in two, twice for that same front pin. Each time I've walked away with a bogie six, fully taking blame for the mess I put myself in.

Now some will say, how can this be, how could a short-knocker like myself, playing from the tips no less put it on two on a hole like that? Well, it is perfect designed quirk plus two of the best drives and then 3-wood shots I've ever hit. I got my just desserts for allowing that strength get to me, becoming delusional and not realizing that a more conservative play of playing a lay-up then a pitch to the left side of the green which would allow me a better chance at par would have been the wiser choice.

No, I had to go and get greedy.

I wanted it all, and when left with trying to negotiate that teir and that reverse break in that phenominal green, well you do the math.

[Tom Huckaby]

In regards to the 13th, I've been about 15 yards putting it on the green in two, twice for that same front pin. Each time I've walked away with a bogie six, fully taking blame for the mess I put myself in.

Now some will say, how can this be, how could a short-knocker like myself, playing from the tips no less put it on two on a hole like that? Well, it is perfect designed quirk plus two of the best drives and then 3-wood shots I've ever hit. I got my just desserts for allowing that strength get to me, becoming delusional and not realizing that a more conservative play of playing a lay-up then a pitch to the left side of the green which would allow me a better chance at par would have been the wiser choice.

No, I had to go and get greedy.

I wanted it all, and when left with trying to negotiate that teir and that reverse break in that phenominal green, well you do the math.

That's great stuff.  I had exactly the same thing occur Monday morning.  Great drive, strong but pulled 3wood onto the hillside leaving not more than 25 yards worth of pitch shot, walk away lucky to make 6.  To me that's cool, love it.  But dammit I'd like to have my pitch shot over.  Not that I think I could have gotten it close, but I could have found the green.  

In any case, these are great reasons why this hole is so cool.  I should have put it in my faves.  You need to stay right... but right holds lots of death.  It's so easy to just slam a 2nd shot into the left hillside... but do so and you get a fate deserving your wussy play.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom.
I took a little running 8 iron with all of my weight shifted on my left side, trying to get that damn pellet to run and climb and run some more through that approach, get on the green and climb some more up that tier where the pin was located.

Well two out of the three wasn't bad, but how that adds up to a bogie 6, well that's sheer outrage!

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom.
I took a little running 8 iron with all of my weight shifted on my left side, trying to get that damn pellet to run and climb and run some more through that approach, get on the green and climb some more up that tier where the pin was located.

Well two out of the three wasn't bad, but how that adds up to a bogie 6, well that's sheer outrage!

Outrage is right, dammit!
You deserved a better fate.

Me, I just hit it way too hard.  
 

And I just realized we were playing to the much easier back right pin.  

[Sean Leary]

Sunday, on 13 one of my playing partners hit his second shot back right to a front left pin and three putted to the front left for par.  Monday, he it it on the front left shelf (using the hill) in 2 and three putted to back right...

[ed_getka]

I appreciate the further reviews of the individual holes.  Some of it is stuff I agree with but could not fix due to the restrictions of the site.

Tom,
    What are some of the things you are referring to that couldn't be fixed due to site restrictions?
    Also, what were some of the most difficult obstacles to overcome in getting the course to turn out as well as it did? What solution to a problem are you most pleased about there?

[rjsimper]

Somewhat OT, but was the Lower clubhouse/Upper golf course arrangement something that was an idea the ownership wanted to implement from the beginning, or was that a suggested solution based on the problem of not having the room up top to support the club infrastructure?

I wonder whether the members will end up finding this a nuisance or a virtue when all is said and done.

[ed_getka]

Ryan,
   I think the members will find it to be a virtue. Having the golf course up there just amplifies the feeling of being a sanctuary. It's not nearly as far from "civilization", but it reminds me of Sand Hills a little. Just a little building next to the golf course for food and drink. Perfect in my book.

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:  "Development" of the upper plateau was off limits for any structures, including a clubhouse.  That's the only reason the site is a golf course and not a development -- otherwise, the land values would have been too high for a golf course to be feasible.

Ed:  By "site restrictions" I just meant the lay of the land making it impractical to put in back tees in some spots, to fix some of the sideslopes without making ugly terraces, or to move more earth to fix some of the "imbalances" that have been pointed out.  On paper those things are easy to point out, but on the ground, they were major obstacles.

Honestly, the fact that there aren't any holes which are unplayable or uninteresting is our major accomplishment, but by far the toughest holes to build were #6 and #14 and #18.  In the first two cases there were great green sites but no landing area to work with, and in the last, it only took about twenty feet of fill short and left of the green to get to where people could finish.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   Thanks for the feedback.

[Lou_Duran]

Quote from: Tom_Doak on Yesterday at 04:54:18pm
Scott:  I love that front left pin on 13.  It's as hard as we can make one
 
Joe Perches apparently didn't find it all that difficult on Sunday, putting it in from just off the green below the hole for an eagle.  My opponent, Steve Pieracci chipped one in for par (while I three-whacked from the back of the green for a bogey).

Questions:

Why the back tee (# 9, I think) above the green (#8) requiring a tee shot right over it?  Was it sited there for a better angle, less earth movement, because the cart path would have been too steep further west, or just to be different?

Was bent considered for the greens?   With a small membership, large greens, and good air circulation, I would think that growing bent there would be an easier proposition than at The Palms.

What was done with all the rocks sifted from the material used for fairways and rough?  Was this part of the construction budget very significant?

Are Doak/Renaissance courses better suited for match play as opposed to medal?  Counting all shots including a fair estimation of those that would have been required after sticking one's ball in the pocket without holing out, how many KPV attendees achieved their handicap?
 

[John_Cullum]

Taking the last category first, there is Mr. Cullum's description of the fourth hole, where he hit his tee shot too far left and it eventually found the water.  We knew this would happen, but there's 75 feet of fall on that fairway, so what can one do?  Anyway, once he dropped he said his next shot was uphill and blind.  You may not be able to see the right side of the green there, but the green and the drop zone are exactly the same elevation, about three feet above the (same) pond.

Well, I was only there once, as I learned my lesson. After walking around in circles looking for everybody's golf balls, with all those big slopes around, I recall it as being blind and uphill. Maybe I was mesmerized by the waterfalls.

[Tom_Doak]

Lou:  To respond to your questions:

1.  The back tee was placed on #9 because I thought it was a better angle at which to control the tee shot.  From the white tees, some guys are going to try to drive the green, and I wanted a tee where that would be difficult; at the same time, I wanted a tee where it was easier to hold up the ball in the primary landing area, which you can only do by hitting a fade from the right-hand tees.

2.  I thought bent greens would be overwatered in that climate, and I didn't want the client to go to the expense of a Sub-Air system to try and make them work, as they did at The Reserve.  [I also told our client at Sebonack that if he decided to go with Sub-Air, he needed a new architect -- I don't approve of the expense of those systems, and it makes building cool green contours nearly impossible.]

3.  The rocks that were screened out were used as fill in some locations ... including the landing areas on holes 13 and 17 which were raised significantly.

4.  We do think more in terms of match play interest than about stroke play, but we always try to build our holes so that golfers can finish with their own ball.  Mostly I think in terms of making the holes fun and interesting ... the course rating and slope is supposed to even things out, but I don't care what those numbers come out to be.

[John Kirk]

One quick comment about hole #10, and approaching from the preferred high, left side of the fairway, versus the lower right half of the fairway.

Virtually every time I've been down on the lower right half, I've had an uphill lie.  For me, an uphill lie strongly promotes a pull, or hook, or both.  So I have to aim out over the right bunker, and let it draw back onto the green.  Even a good shot of this variety has overspin, so it's hard to keep the ball on the green.

That's the main reason I think the left side is much easier.  The fact the green opens up that way is a bonus.