TKP-V: Event Report, Course Impressions, Next Year?

[DMoriarty]

Bogey,  Not only did Ed Getka give the course a Doak 8, but Tom H. did as well.  Whose ass his he kissing?    
__________________

Aside from disagreeing with TH, I havent really given my take on the course yet, so here goes.  My opinion is based on playing the course under much better conditions than we faced at KP V . . .

What I liked about SE is that it still felt like a golf course despite the incredibly difficult site.   Some of the highlights for me were the beauty, the integration of the movement of the landscape into the course, the use of groundslope and visibility as a strategic factor, the width and playability, the potential for recovery, the interconnectedness of the playing corridors, shaping of the surfaces of the bunkers, and the movement in the fairways.  Most significantly, the course seemed to present one interesting and fun shot opportunity after another.   Without a doubt, the course completely blows away any other design I have seen that until now has passed for a quality mountain design (Black Rock, Yellowstone Club, Lost Canyons, etc.)  Hopefully, Stone Eagle will force raters and designers alike to take another look at this genre of course design and raise their standards significantly.  

My favorite hole is 10 without question.  A terrific example of how designers should use ground slope and visibility in fairways to challenge the golfer without unduly punishing him.  As for the approach, just for fun I putted one on Monday from the 76 yard marker, and it rolled the entired distance of the green, up the bank behind the back level, and eventually settled about 8 to 10 feet from the cup.  Possible evidence that even the toughest pin on the course is accessible to the high handicapper who is willing to swallow his pride and be creative.  

I didnt really have a least favorite hole, but a few least favorite segments of holes.  Didnt like the cart ride up to the 7th tee, but loved the 7th greensite, especially the bunker left and short.  Didnt like the drive on the third hole (felt sloggy and a little forced) but liked the approach.   Didnt like how some of the downhill holes looked similar in panorama but didnt particularly think they played the same.   I am still undecided about the drive on 4, but a really enjoyed the approach.  As for walkability, I'd love to try it under better conditions, and have a feeling that it will not be nearly has difficult as many predict.

All that being said, I would not want Stone Eagle as my home course.  I dont particularly like mountain golf or desert golf and Stone Eagle is both.  My analysis comes down to something I heard Doak say about four or five years ago:  You cannot build a World Class golf course without a World Class site.  While Doak's crew may have gotten the most out of what they had to work with, Stone Eagle is nowhere near a World Class site.  As is the site, so goes the course.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Ryan,

As I posted above, the hole is only 415, but it's significantly
uphill (more than it appears in pic below), so your uphill 286 3-
wood is LONG.  If it weren't uphill, you'd be able to see the chasm off the tee, but you can't.



Only the very end goes down into the chasm.  From that 286
marker, it's only 129 in.  A 270-yard, way-uphill 'lay-up' is at
least 3-wood for most.  I have the yardage book in front of
me, and the fairway is still pretty wide up until that 286 mark,
which is just left of the 2nd bunker from left above.  You
just need to be farther right than the caddie told you.  The
guys playing WF this week would kill for the width of the
fairway at the 286 mark on #14 at SE.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:  apologies, but I can't really give it a Doak 8.  Here's what I said:


Ed - I'd call it a Doak 8 also.  The way that's worded in the list I was given scream out Stone Eagle.  Here it is:

8:  One of the very best in the region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but will make up for them with something really special.

The drawback I see is my issue with the greensites and high 'cappers, obviously.  But ues, that is made up for with quite a bit really special.  And it is very clear SE is one of the best in the region - which is saying something given the huge quantity of courses in the Coachella Valley - and it sure as hell is a worth a special trip to see.

I just wouldn't bring my Dad there, that's all.

What I mean by that is it's a Doak 8 for me but no way can I say that for my Dad, as I truly believe that after playing it he might give it a Doak 0.  Thus it's exceedingly difficult for me to give it any overall Doak 8 - I'm just not sure how this falls fall out.  In any case, it's thus not correct to say I gave it a Doak 8.  But my bad for not fleshing that out more before.  I just figured I'd said way too much already.

Re #10, the reason I put it as least fave is really because with the very difficult greensite, seeming to require creativity inthe lines of putting from 76 yards to access, I just wish there was some reward given for a good tee shot.  As it stands, I don't see any benefit from doing anything except smashing it as far as one can and staying between the rocks.  Is there a real benefit for going left?  I can see it avoids losing distance down the big roll to the right, but is that it?  I am very open to being very wrong about this golf hole.

As for the rest, I agree 100% with your overall assessment and find it to be exceedingly well said.  In fact lost in all the discussion about the greensites being severe or not, that's damn near exactly what I've been trying to say all along.  Doak did great with a VERY difficult site, but a difficult site it remains, and thus not really my cup of tea either.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

David,

Thanks for the revelation that Tom Huckaby also assigned an "8" rating to Stone Eagle using the Doak Scale.  I did not get the impression from his comments that the course was one of the finest built in the past fifty years.  

Thanks also for your insightful post.  I previously used the term "integration" but like your description of the playing corridors as being "inter-connected."  I am enamoured with the concept of a golf course as a field of play and personally find this an extremely appealing architectural element. To pull it off on such a site is impressive design and construction, and a positive departure from the defined corridors typical of most mountain and desert courses.    

The photographs you posted were insightful as well.  Thanks for taking the time to do so.

Mike

BTW, Ed and I are cool.  Maybe some emoticons next time.

[Tom Huckaby]

David,

Thanks for the revelation that Tom Huckaby also assigned an "8" rating to Stone Eagle using the Doak Scale.  I did not get the impression from his comments that the course was one of the finest built in the past fifty years.

Bogey - as I say above, I didn't really give it a Doak 8.  I do think that for ME, as I play the game, it meets the definition given for that term.  But my Dad would hate it, of that I feel certain.  So where then does it fall?  I really don't know.

As I say also, it's really not my cup of tea, but I can't deny it meets that definition.  It is pretty incredible, I do think it's among the best in its region, and I do think it's worth travelling to visit.

I don't see how Doak 8 means necessarily one of the best in the last 50 years though - I was just going by the words of the definition.

TH

[rjsimper]

Hmm - okay - knowing that about the total length at 415 DEFINITELY makes me think the hole could use 20 more yards - entice the longer player to challenge with the driver, allowing a 3 wood layup play, and still having a reasonable hole for the short hitter who cannot clear the chasm in two shots (129 from the edge to the green is more manageable than the 160-180 I had recalled it to be).

Admittedly, I hit the ball left of where I wanted to off the tee, and it's a hole I would like to see again simply because I was misdirected by the caddie.

Heck, even off the club, he exclaimed "PERFECT!" when I had a feeling it was left - Jason hit his ball on a MUCH better line and I knew it...but hey, when the caddie tells me "perfect" then I tend to believe him.  I even told Jason as we were driving up that I was afraid mine had run out of room.

Anyone know if there is more room to push the tee back 20 yards?

[ed_getka]

Tom,
    I don't know how #10 plays from the right side as I only played it from the left and the center. However, I don't feel the hole is that difficult as I remember having 8 iron in the first time, and 6 iron the second. I didn't have an X there BTW. I hit a crap weak right 6 iron, then pitched up long up on back chipping fringe, played a sweet little chip up and over a knob that rolled down to tap in distance.
   If I couldn't bailout by coming up short my view of the hole would change completely, but if there is a safety valve and it just comes down to me and my cojones, then I don't have a problem with a demanding approach shot. I would not want to have that type of approach all the time, but it adds nice variety to the course.
   I didn't know the distances on #14, I suppose I can't reach with driver if I keep it right enough, but then the rocks on the right are in play and I rarely found my ball when it went in that stuff. The first time I hit a driver with a little draw just left of center and it ran through into the rocks. The next day I pulled 3W thinking there was no way I could come close to reaching, but found myselft within 10 paces. I am not a long hitter (carrywise) but my ball does tend to run out quite a bit when it lands.

[Mike Hendren]

I don't see how Doak 8 means necessarily one of the best in the last 50 years though - I was just going by the words of the definition.

TH

Tom, Doak gave The Honors and Spyglass a "7" and both are in the top twenty of Golfweek's modern list, which dates from 1960.  A tenuous interpolation, no doubt.  

Mike

[David Kelly]

Anyone know if there is more room to push the tee back 20 yards?

Then wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the cross hazard?

I think it is in a perfect location and it only takes one time (or a good caddy) to know what the hole requires. If the chasm is placed 20 yards further away then almost anyone could drive down the left side.



 

[Tom Huckaby]

Bogey - gotcha -I can see how this would shake down.  There really ought not to be all that many Doak 8's.  But man, I read those words, and it does scream out Stone Eagle.  Are we to go beyond the words?

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - re 10, I don't have that much of an issue with the demanding approach shot either (remember my issue overall is more the accumulation of those and how they play for the high capper); I just wish there was some reward for a good tee shot one way or the other. Do you see any?

[rjsimper]

Anyone know if there is more room to push the tee back 20 yards?

Then wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the cross hazard?

I think it is in a perfect location and it only takes one time (or a good caddy) to know what the hole requires. If the chasm is placed 20 yards further away then almost anyone could drive down the left side.



 

Jason Topp hit a good drive on the perfect line and he had maybe 10 yards of room left - Jason, while a strong fellow and able to hit the ball a good ways, was even with my three wood.  This tells me that driver, no matter what line I hit it on, if I strike it well will be in the chasm - I like to think that the purpose of this cross hazard dares you to hit it as far as you can, but only if you can hit it on the best possible line.  

I think a driver for a long player (from the back tees, of course) or even a driver for a moderate player from the next set up would go through even on the ideal line.  

I'd like to have the hazard place the pressure on my line with the longest club in the bag, not my layup club.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan - I get that.  20 more yards would make 14 better for you.

But I'd say for the vast majority of golfers, it is perfectly placed.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   As I mentioned I haven't seen it from the right side, and I just assumed that the shot from over there being lower down and approaching the green more obliquely would be a disadvantage. Even if there is no advantage to be gained from either side I still like it for the partially obscured tee view, slightly crowned fairway, and tough approach shot (that doesn't feel impossible). I couldn't see the green surface from where I played either so I don't think there is a visual advantage to be gained with tee shot position, at least where I hit it. Still a cool hole in my book, but I can certainly see where it isn't for everyone.

[rjsimper]

You guys are right - I guess I am just selfish

Maybe it would be better if it had a steeper slant on it - not that I know whether or not this was a choice, but it looks like the left edge of the fairway was built up in order to create the short-left corner (the cart path is well below the grass)

Why not pull in the left corner a bit, make it so just anyone CANT hit down the left which I agree would be bad, and still pull the tee back - the layout would, in my opinion, benefit from a more demanding UPHILL driving hole, which my memory tells me the course lacked.

[David Kelly]

Anyone know if there is more room to push the tee back 20 yards?

Then wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the cross hazard?

I think it is in a perfect location and it only takes one time (or a good caddy) to know what the hole requires. If the chasm is placed 20 yards further away then almost anyone could drive down the left side.



 

Jason Topp hit a good drive on the perfect line and he had maybe 10 yards of room left - Jason, while a strong fellow and able to hit the ball a good ways, was even with my three wood.  This tells me that driver, no matter what line I hit it on, if I strike it well will be in the chasm - I like to think that the purpose of this cross hazard dares you to hit it as far as you can, but only if you can hit it on the best possible line.  

I think a driver for a long player (from the back tees, of course) or even a driver for a moderate player from the next set up would go through even on the ideal line.  

I'd like to have the hazard place the pressure on my line with the longest club in the bag, not my layup club.

I've played the hole 4 times.  The first time I found the chasm but every time since then I have played to the right and still hit a driver.

The hazard is there and it is up to the golfer to negotiate it whether they are using driver, 3W, 3I or whatever.

The bottom line is that if the hazard is setup for only very long hitters then it isn't a hazard any more for everyone else.

[Scott_Burroughs]

(129 from the edge to the green is more manageable than the 160-180 I had recalled it to be).

Ryan,

The 129 from the edge of the fairway is at the 286 mark,
which is left-center fairway, but is NOT where the fairway
ends on a right-center line.  There is probably ~20 more
yards of fairway on a right-center line, making a ~300-yard
UPHILL drive still safe.  It's a much narrower line, but it's
possible.  

[DMoriarty]

David:  apologies, but I can't really give it a Doak 8.  Here's what I said:


Ed - I'd call it a Doak 8 also.  The way that's worded in the list I was given scream out Stone Eagle.  Here it is:

8:  One of the very best in the region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but will make up for them with something really special.

The drawback I see is my issue with the greensites and high 'cappers, obviously.  But ues, that is made up for with quite a bit really special.  And it is very clear SE is one of the best in the region - which is saying something given the huge quantity of courses in the Coachella Valley - and it sure as hell is a worth a special trip to see.

I just wouldn't bring my Dad there, that's all.

You cant give it a Doak 8?   You already did!  As for your change of heart, apparently based on a recent reassessment of what it means to be a Doak 8: "Are we to go beyond the words?"

At least now I am understanding more what you didnt like about Stone Eagle.  Were you afraid you might backtrack your way off one of those nasty cliffs into a deep wash, never to be heard from again?  

[rjsimper]

(129 from the edge to the green is more manageable than the 160-180 I had recalled it to be).

Ryan,

The 129 from the edge of the fairway is at the 286 mark,
which is left-center fairway, but is NOT where the fairway
ends on a right-center line.  There is probably ~20 more
yards of fairway on a right-center line, making a ~300-yard
UPHILL drive still safe.  It's a much narrower line, but it's
possible.  I'm guessing based on what you said, that your
drive may have gone in even farther back than the 286
marker.  Where would you guess it went in compared to
where the cartpath exit was on the left side?  A ~260-yard
drive would go into the hazard where the cartpath exit was.

If I had to make a guess, it split the left edge of the fairway and the 286 mark - Granted, I killed it on the line I hit it...no, I don't think I hit it 290 by any means, but probably 270-275 and yes, it would have been nicely in play had our caddie directed us a little better and had I not pulled it a few yards, but I think my position has changed from the hole stinks to maybe that the hazard would be more effective had they not built up the left corner of the fairway and lengthened it to make it a marginally more difficult uphill tee ball

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

Great line about the back-peddling!  

But it's not a change of heart; it's a fleshing out of what I meant to say.  I give it a Doak 8 as it plays for me; I have no doubt my Dad would give it a Doak 0.  So how then does it get assessed?

What's even funnier is I do agree with your overall assessment of the course, and I was trying to say that all along.  That is, best golf course that could have been made out of a really bad site for golf.

Yet still it meets the definition of Doak 8!

Here's how it goes, for me:

 One of the very best in the region and worth a special trip to see. [CHECK - even with the bad site, it's sure as hell one of the best in Palm Desert].   Could have some drawbacks [CHECK - very hard walk, too severe on the greensites as I see it] , but will make up for them with something really special [CHECK - lots of that - incredible views, spacious tee shots on a site that would not indicate such, great greens, lots of other things.]

So it meets the words, yet it's still not my cup of tea, for exactly the reasons you stated.  I'm really not into desert/mountain golf.  I also honestly didn't take this beyond the definition... to me "top whatever" is a separate question.

Come on man, in the midst of all of that, did you REALLY want me fleshing more things out?  In all sincerity I truly thought I had rambled on way too much already at that point.

 

Anyway, what Doak number do you give it?

[David Kelly]

(129 from the edge to the green is more manageable than the 160-180 I had recalled it to be).

Ryan,

The 129 from the edge of the fairway is at the 286 mark,
which is left-center fairway, but is NOT where the fairway
ends on a right-center line.  There is probably ~20 more
yards of fairway on a right-center line, making a ~300-yard
UPHILL drive still safe.  It's a much narrower line, but it's
possible.  I'm guessing based on what you said, that your
drive may have gone in even farther back than the 286
marker.  Where would you guess it went in compared to
where the cartpath exit was on the left side?  A ~260-yard
drive would go into the hazard where the cartpath exit was.

If I had to make a guess, it split the left edge of the fairway and the 286 mark - Granted, I killed it on the line I hit it...no, I don't think I hit it 290 by any means, but probably 270-275 and yes, it would have been nicely in play had our caddie directed us a little better and had I not pulled it a few yards, but I think my position has changed from the hole stinks to maybe that the hazard would be more effective had they not built up the left corner of the fairway and lengthened it to make it a marginally more difficult uphill tee ball

How about this?  You cannot go left off of that tee unless you are prepared to lay-up.  Your options are going down the right side for as much as 300 yards or playing to the left knowing that you can't hit it much farther than 275 yds.

Deal with it. Oh and mix in a GD tee.

[Jason Topp]

Re 10 - Jason - I can't see how coming in from the left helps much, other than you don't lose the distance down the hill one does if one goes too far right.  The bunkers and rocks are pretty evil on the left side of that green... as they are on the right... seriously, why is the angle better from the left?  If I'm a caddie there, I tell my guy to just smash it down the middle and don't sweat either side.  What am I missing?

TH

With the pin back right on the second day, I did not need to carry a bunker to get to the pin from the left side.  You have 45 yards of green to play down, rather than about 15-20 yards if you go the other way.  It is a much easier shot from the left.

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmmmmm.... call me a doubting Thomas.  Aren't there some pretty severe bunkers on the left side of 10 green?

And if so, how does being on the left allow them not to be carried...

We're close here... I just might need another picture.

 

[Jason Topp]

(129 from the edge to the green is more manageable than the 160-180 I had recalled it to be).

Ryan,

The 129 from the edge of the fairway is at the 286 mark,
which is left-center fairway, but is NOT where the fairway
ends on a right-center line.  There is probably ~20 more
yards of fairway on a right-center line, making a ~300-yard
UPHILL drive still safe.  It's a much narrower line, but it's
possible.  

recall that the ground slopes right to left and down to the wash.  I think anything within about 30 yards of the wash will run down into it, particularly anything with hook spin.

[Tom_Doak]

I appreciate the further reviews of the individual holes.  Some of it is stuff I agree with but could not fix due to the restrictions of the site; a little bit I don't agree with at all; and a little bit of it is just nuts.

Taking the last category first, there is Mr. Cullum's description of the fourth hole, where he hit his tee shot too far left and it eventually found the water.  We knew this would happen, but there's 75 feet of fall on that fairway, so what can one do?  Anyway, once he dropped he said his next shot was uphill and blind.  You may not be able to see the right side of the green there, but the green and the drop zone are exactly the same elevation, about three feet above the (same) pond.

A lot of the critique about the tenth hole centers on the back right pin.  We almost didn't put that section of green in there at all, but thought the front was just too small, so we built the back right of the green for 1-2 days per week.  I've never played it with the pin back there, but when I do, I will lay up to the left front half of the green and try to two-putt from there.  The shot to the front left of the green is pretty wide open (or at least I think so )

As for #14, the ravine is where it always has been, and we put the tee on top of an existing hill.  It would have been very expensive to move that hill back twenty yards, so we built the hole as it is and hoped people would stay to the right off the tee.  It's hard to stay far enough right; I've hit into the ravine twice myself, so I understand the frustration.

As for 9, 11 and 16 all being right-to-left, sometimes that's what the land gives you.  They are all the same if you choose to lay up to the right off the tee, but you get very different results if you hit driver on them and go left.  Most people think most of my courses favor a left-to-right ball, so I'm glad I've balanced it out here.