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[Phil_the_Author]

To try and answer questions briefly:

Tom - where do you get this information that tilly was on site for ONLY 15 days? From Tilly's own writings we know that isn't true. The contract that he signed for Moses to get the project started listed 15 days, but he WAS NEVER LIMITED TO THAT AMOUNT!

You also asked, "Look Phil, you list all those OTHER things that Burbeck did as proof he couldn't have designed or really overseen the construction of the Black. How do you know to what extent he participated in all those other things you just listed?"

Because Bethpage State Park records back up that he was completely in charge of those projects as well and spent a great deal of time working with contractors, vendors, designers (or was Wendehack just a consultant as his contract listed him and Burbeck is the clubhouse architect as well) and intermediary with the federal governments on-site representatives of the WPA, who were NOT involved in the construction of the infrastructure installations and only the building of the golf courses.

You also asked, "Well, Phil, who do you think did oversee the construction of the Black if it wasn't Burbeck? Do you think it was just someone else? Have you any clue who that may've been? Inquiring minds would love to know. Was it Tillie who did all that overseeing in his 15 days on site?"

C'mon Tom, even you should realize that a project of this magnitude with as many men working on it at one time (from 600 to a high of 1,800) would need MULTIPLE overseers. Of course there were many who oversaw various course construction aspects daily that weren't named either Burbeck or Tilly. Of Course Burbeck spent time on the courses and gave direction where needed, but the question isn't one of day-by-day minutia as to who did what and where. It is one of who is the true and actual designer and architect of record.

Again, even if Tilly was on-site for only 15 days, taht would not have precluded him from designing three courses in that time. There are numerous examples of his being on a virgin & uncleared site for as little as a day and leaving with a staked-out course and preliminary drawings. They started clearing the land for the three courses at Bethpage in the fall of 1933, PRIOR TO THE FINAL COURSE DESIGNS HAVING BEEN DONE! In 1932 the Commission had actually designed a single new course in-house, but they GOT RID OF THIS DESIGN AND BROUGHT IN TILLINGHAST! The designer isn't named, but since Burbeck was on staff at the time, why would they either get rid of his design or call in someone else when it proved not good enough?

Jeff, you wrote, "Again, if we want "proof" it would have to come in the form of a daily log.  Even Burbeck or Tillie descendants recalling them being on site really proves nothing, as I don't think anyone doubts Burbeck was somewhere nearby daily, and Tillie was there periodically as you would expect."

That is correct. The problem is there are NO DAILY LOGS or reports. Not for Tilly, Burbeck or anyone else. The reason that I put import into Tilly's granddaughter's memory is because Whitten bases his conclusion on very few things, most prominent among them being a 4-year old boys memory. I will take a 6-year old girls over that, though to be honest, both are children and there memories should be considered suspect due to age.


Jeff, you asked, "Phil, I need to reread your Tillie bio, but could you briefly put Tillie in perspective at the time of design and construction?  Was it one of his drinking periods, etc.?"

Tilly's drinking problem was one of being a binge drinker and not a daily over-drinking drunk. He went long periods where he didn't drink and according to his medical records (Ihave copies of these) he had his last drink in 1927 after being told by his physician that he risked serious health issues or even death due to his severe high blood pressure. It had gotten so bad that he had to take a break from his work in 1925 because his pressure had reached a level of more than 220! So at the time that the Bethpage project was underway, Tilly had not had a drink in more than 6 & 1/2 years. we have independent confirmation of this from Dr. Brown, his son-in-law. He was raised by parents who were strong followers of the WCTU and when they visited his home Tilly & Lillian (who also drank) kept the liquor hidden out of respect. Dr. Brown told many people after Tilly had stopped drinking how proud he was of the man.

Tilly was. like many other architects of his time, frustrated over lack of work and was seeking more.

Which house did you visit? Toledo or Harrington Park. If Toledo, which house as some of the family still live in the city. IM me with the info & I'll let you know if that was the one.

John, I have been well aware of that passage for sometime and quote from it in the bio. In addition there are ever-increasing accounts being found of Tilly at work on the site and, in fact, when in New York next week, I am hopeful of interviewing a gentleman whose father worked on a number of Tilly's projects in the 30's, supposedly including Bethpage.

As part of that quote, note that Martin states that "For eleven years in succession a major championship has been played over a Tillinghast links." This is not a Tilly advertisement or claim, it is a statement of fact by one of the preeminent golf historians of his day. John, I believe you will now see the import of that statement as well.

Sometimes stories take on a life of their own. This is one that is the SOLE creation of Ron Whitten when there was and is no reason to give it credence.

Wayne and Tom, you have both been deeply critical of me for questioning your conclusion about the Cascades. I have simply asked questions that I believed deserved asking and yet both of you were very hard in your criticism of my even asking them. Yet you demand on this issue that I, "give us a break."

Let's make a comparison:

Cascades - Tilly claimed that he designed the course in a 1931 advertisement.

Bethpage - Burbeck, till the day he died NEVER made claim that he designed anything at Bethpage and his son ADMITTED this.

Cascades - We have a number of independent persons, in the case that John mentions H.B. Martin, who makes the same statement that Tilly did in that courses of his design had hosted 11 national championships in a row. This would include the 1928 Woman's Championship at the Cascades.

Bethpage - Not a single person of his day EVER stated that Burbeck DESIGNED the courses at Bethpage. the earliest reference to his supervising the work is 1942 and is included in the 1958 reference made by Whitten. Unfortunately he neglected to quote from the rest of the publication as it makes it quite clear that Burbeck's role was of a SUPERVISORY NATURE for the LONG ISLAND STATE PARK COMMISSION ONLY.

Cascades - There is independent evidence published by the HOMESTEAD ITSELF that states that Tilly & Lees did work to the tune of $40-50,000 "clearing land, laying out a golf course and bringing it to the point of seeding."

Bethpage - There is not one piece of paper with Burbeck's name on it indicating that he spent any money "clearing land, layout out a golf course [or three] and bringing them to the point of seeding."

Again, I am NOT claiming that Tilly designed the Cascades and don't want to open that can of worms, but frankly, I find your consistancy of logic in this issue lacking.

Should Burbeck's role be researched? Absolutely! Should questions be asked? Yes! Should Burbeck be given architectural attribution for the Black and the other courses if only to the extent that he & illy should share the credit? Not based upion what has been used so far. Based upon the "Burbeck information" should Tilly no longer be viewed as the architect of record at Bethpage? That, in my opinion, has no merit and is an insult to his talents and record.

Again guys, I bring up the Cascades ONLY as an example of where there is far more empirical evidence, even if it is being misinterpreted which I believe it could be, yet I'm told that questioning is really a foolish waste of time and effort, yet in the case of Mr. Burbeck you not only feel free to question but to render judgement of Tilly and Burbeck to the extent that they should share credit at this time. That, at least to me, is the height of inconsistency.

Tom, you did say something that I do agree with, "Looks to me like the truth of who did what design-wise on the Black is still out there somewhere." I agree with that completely. I am just convinced, based upon a great deal of research, that the answer is the one we knew all along, A.W. Tillinghast routed and design the golf courses at bethpage State Park.  

[TEPaul]

John:

I really don't know if Rice looked at those other sources. I'm definitely no expert on this course or any of this evidence. I'm jsut trying to have some fun. I believe I saw that Rice just interviewed Burbeck directly for his story. That might've been in Tom MacWood's article in the "In My Opinion" section on here or maybe Phil said it. I don't recall---but someone on here said Rice's article came directly from his interview with Burbeck, and I think I recall that Burbeck told Rice he basically designed the golf course. Do you think maybe Burbeck didn't know the difference between what "designing" a course means and "constructing" that design?  I guess that's possible but I wouldn't count on that.

Also Tillie seemed to say he was a "consultant" on the golf course. I can see New York bureaucrats saying something like that of a guy who designed a golf course, but Tillie saying it? That seems very odd. I don't care what New York Bureaucrats wanted to float as a story on that but it seems to me Tillie wouldn't have cared and he would've said what it was he really did and was on that project, particularly if he said it after the fact.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, you wrote, "That was the absolute pinnacle of Tillie's "flask architeture" period---frankly some of his most creative and greatest work but sometimes irascible and inconsistent in spots."

I am assuming that you did not get the opportunity to read my latest diatribe in answer to that, but again, it is time you get off this idea you keep spouting, whether in jest or not, that Tilly was a a gutter-kissing alcoholic. He wasn't, even during his dark times of binge drinking.

We have documented proof that it was more than 6 years since Tilly had taken a drink, even a casual one, when he did his work at Bethpage.

As far as the term "Consultant" is concerned. Since the state of New York DID NOT OWN THE PROPERTY AT THE TIME OF SIGNING BOTH Tilly's & Wendehack's contracts, they were could only be brought in as "Consultants" and signed as such.

[Mike_Cirba]

I would agree that there is still no proof and if this was a criminal case there is surely reasonable doubt.

However, if forced to judge on the preponderance of evidence in a civil matter (is there ever a civil matter on GCA?? ), I would conclude that Tillinghast was the designer, with likely some considerable assist on the ground by Burbeck.

I say this for one important reason.  The Bethpage complex was an immediate success.  If it had been designed almost in whole by Burbeck his star should have risen considerably and he should have been offered subsequent projects, even given the 1936 timeline.

However, when the Yellow and Blue courses were designed and finalized in their present form in the 50s and Joe Burbeck was still very much alive and vitally present at Bethpage, the design (consulting) work went to one Alfred Tull, who while hardly a household name, had a merely a workmanlike, experienced, professional reputation as a designer of courses, none of which even had the status of the Black course or any of the other existing courses at Bethpage for that matter.  By all accounts, his work at Bethpage lived up to his reputation.  

I can't imagine that a "take charge, competent leader" llke Burbeck wouldn't have been able to parlay the design work at Bethpage into a successful, notable career as an archie if he had in fact been known widely among his peers as the real architect of Bethpage Black.  There is no plausible reason why he wouldn't have trumpeted his own horn during the succeeding years.

However, let's assume the course was in fact done by Tilly.  If so, it would have been just another in a long string of successes, hardly notable except for the fact that it came to be expected of him, much like Tiger Woods capturing another Major title.  There would have been really no additional fanfare, no great outcry of public plaudits, but merely another feather in an already flowing cap, which somewhat sadly turned out to be a superb denoument to a distinguished and meritorious design career.

[TEPaul]

"As far as the term "Consultant" is concerned. Since the state of New York DID NOT OWN THE PROPERTY AT THE TIME OF SIGNING BOTH Tilly's & Wendehack's contracts, they were could only be brought in as "Consultants" and signed as such."

Phil:

So what? Just show me where Tillie then said he was the designer and not the "consultant" AFTER New York bought the property and I'll definitely let that one go.

Mike, Mike, Mike;

You conclude that Burbeck would've parlayed the Black, if he had designed it, into a successful architectural career? Aren't you forgeting a minor point like the rest of the depression years and WW2? Nobody was parlaying anything in architecture into any successes for about the next fifteen years, my man!  
 
 
 

[John Yerger]

Tom
I understand you're having fun as am I. As I said earlier, it seems as if the goal of this discussion started prior to the Open was is to discredit one for the benefit of another. Whitten has been fairly strident about his opinion. There is plenty of room for credit for both. It seems that new sources should be given consideration. Would it seem plausible that Tillinghast was hired to give some "gravitas" to the project, that is absolutely plausible. I do feel that there are architectural aspects at Bethpage that Tillinghast used at other prominent designs that should be considered in this discussion. That is what this site is about. I know the greens are the one aspect that is used consistently as evidence that Tillinghast didn't design Bethpage. But as someone who was fortunate to grow up on and play many of his courses one of Tillinghats enduring qualities are that his greens are usually unique to that course. Newport is totally unlike any other Tillinghast course as are Sunnehanna's and Somerset Hills. The courses in the metropolitan New York area have some similarities but that may be as much a result of the similar topography. We discussed the open entrances he typically used except on short par threes he called Tiny Tims. Hopefully more information will come forward that will either clear up this story. An even greater possibilty is that this story will continue unresolved.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom, Tom, Tom,...  

My current database shows the architectural attribution of Bethpage Black as "Tillinghast/Burbeck", and until someone comes up with some definitive drawings or other substantive proof it will remain that way.

However...if forced to choose, I would favor Tilly based on the evidence and particularly the fact of what is presently on the ground.  Having played quite a number of Tilly courses I'd have to say that any number of holes at BB clearly exhibit design concepts he favored as much as redans and double plateau type holes indicated Raynor's involvement.

Unless Burbeck was some type of Joe Bartholomew who trained directly under Tillinghast, I am hard pressed to otherwise explain that direct phenonmenon.  

[TEPaul]

Phil:

I think I got the 15 day thing from Tom MacWood's article. I believe he said they'd agreed to a 15 day contract which was what he'd done after sixteen months. Can you prove then how many more days he was there?

There were multiple "overseers" then other than Burbeck? Who were they then? Did they oversee the construction of the course from Tillinghast's plans. Where does it document that there were Tillinghast plans? Did Tillinghast say he gave them plans? Did anyone say anything about plans? Didn't Burbeck's son say something about "plans" in his father's hands or that he saw him draw? What were they for, sewers?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, That's an easy one. In the Pacific Coast golfer in 1938 he wrote that the recently awarding of the 1940 U.S. Amateur to Winged Foot marked the "22nd occasion for a national championship to be played over a course designed by A.W. Tillinghast who is now associated with William P.Bell..."

This included the 1936 Public Links at Bethpage on the Red & Blue Courses.

As far as the 15 day figure, the source is the original "Consultant" contract signed by Tilly that listed the length as being a "maximum of 15 days." Tilly wrote of his being at Bethpage on several occasions well after the 15 days of this contract was fulfilled, including his review of the course that he wrote about in his article in Golf Illustrated titled "Mankillers" wherein he described how the 4th hole "terrified even him" more than what he had expected it would.

By the way, I have always tried to praise the work done by Burbeck. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the controversy it becomes unavoidable to sound positive about Burbeck.

Here though is a piece of what I wrote about him in my Tilly bioraphy in the chapter titled, "Of Bethpage and the Black":

      Recognizing him as the creator of Bethpage, he continued, saying that, “Tilly is rather proud of his work at Bethpage, where there are four courses included in the layout. The planning and building of the courses was done for the New York State Park Commission and comprises a tract of land of 1300 acres…”
      There is no doubt that Tilly was very proud of his work here. With the work nearing completion, Robert Moses hailed and promoted Bethpage as the “Peoples Country Club.” Tilly agreed wholeheartedly and wrote, “When the entire plan of these four courses is completed entirely it is quite probable that the Bethpage collection of seventy-two holes will take rank among the great Mecca’s of the golfing world. This will take a little time, of course, although the work there has been pursued most vigorously under the most disheartening of winter weather. Certainly it represents a terrific endeavor to provide great golf for the public.”
      Yet that does not end the chapter on Bethpage, for someone else had a hand in its final outcome. Joseph Burbeck...

[TEPaul]

Mike:

That's not what I said or asked you. You said if Burbeck HAD designed the Black he should've been able to parlay it into a successful architectural career. I asked you how the hell that could've been since for the next app 15 years the golf course architectural scene and its "careers" were a virtual depression followed by a world war. What about Tillie---he was known. Why didn't he parlay the Black's success then. The reasons are completely obvious.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Joe Burbeck wasn't even able to parlay his own supposed design success into a return engagement in his own backyard at Bethpage during the roarin' 50s, a time when almost as many golf courses were built as were in the 90's.  

How would you feel if you were beat out on a design contract by the renowned Alfred Tull at your own course?  Certainly, whatever cache he earned during the design and construction phases at Bethpage didn't merit much consideration a mere 20 years hence.  

[TEPaul]

Phil:

For Christ's Sakes man, you say you find my logic inconsistent because of what I've said about The Cascades???

What the hell is the matter with you Phil? If you had one tenth of the evidence on Tillinghast and the Black that we have on Flynn designing The Cascades none of us would be having these discussions about Bethpage and Burbeck.

I don't think I can recall a golf course from that era that is as well documented as to who did it then The Cascades. We have a detailed story written by the owner, we have all Flynn's hole by hole detailed drawings and we have all the photographic evidence that his drawings are precisely the way the course was built.

What the hell have you got on Bethpage Black like that? Just about nothing, that's what.

You've showed everyone your best stuff on Tillinghast and The Black and from what most of us can see of it all there is no proof---or are you holding something really important back for some odd reason?  

You have never seen what we have on Flynn and the Cascades although you certainly are welcome to see it all and we've TOLD you about it OVER and OVER again in minute detail every time.

We had a pretty heated argument on the phone (that thankfully ended well) over whatever the hell it is you think you're saying about Tillinghast and the Cascades and if you bring that up again, Phil, I really will go to town on you as some kind of irrational advocacy crackpot because if you try to weave Tillinghast and Flynn and the Cascades into this discussion of the Black in any way at all that is precisely what you will be.

Don't go there again. If you would bother to look at what we have on the Cascades or bother to listen to what we've been telling you and you still think that Tillinghast had anything at all to do with that particular golf course at The Homestead, you are absolutely out of your mind.

[TEPaul]

I'll see you guys later---I'm going to bed and then to Fishers Island for the next three days.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'll see you guys later---I'm going to bed and then to Fishers Island for the next three days.

Tom,

Enjoy yourself.  It is next to impossible not to at FI.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You missed my entire point with refernce to the Cascades issue. Re-read again what I wrote and hopefully you'll see that all I was trying to say was that there is FAR LESS reason to quetion Tilly as architect of record at Bethpage BASED UPON THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED than there is for me to question Flynn at the Cascades!

Enjoy FI...

[wsmorrison]

"You missed my entire point with refernce to the Cascades issue. Re-read again what I wrote and hopefully you'll see that all I was trying to say was that there is FAR LESS reason to quetion Tilly as architect of record at Bethpage BASED UPON THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED than there is for me to question Flynn at the Cascades!"

Phil,

On the contrary.  There is very little direct evidence to conclude anything about architectural attribution at Bethpage.  Like Mike Cirba, without additional evidence, I believe that most of the design is Tillinghast but that there was considerable assistance from Burbeck.  On the other hand, there is overwhelming and conclusive evidence that Tillinghast had NOTHING at all to do with the Cascades golf course on the Rubino/Thompson properties.  I cannot believe you cling, however tenuously, to the possibility that there might still be evidence linking Tillinghast to any work there.  The fact that you do, despite any qualifications such as:

"Again guys, I bring up the Cascades ONLY as an example of where there is far more empirical evidence, even if it is being misinterpreted which I believe it could be, yet I'm told that questioning is really a foolish waste of time and effort,"

is a blot on your otherwise respected research efforts.  For you to make statements like you have now and in the past on this without putting what little you have into any sort of perspective (timeline and otherwise) and waiting tbefore making unfounded suppositions without looking at 99.9% of the material related to this that you haven't yet seen is a poor decision on your part.  Perhaps on your way up to the US Open you might stop in Philadelphia to see what we have.  I'd be happy to dispell your ifs, buts and maybes.  

Tillinghast had nothing to do with the Cascades.  The Homestead didn't own the land when he was there!!!  But maybe you think because he was a consultant at Bethpage before the land was acquired he might have been a consultant at Cascades.  If you believe this then you don't believe the owner of the property that wrote his account of the development of the Cascades golf course and you won't believe your eyes when you see Flynn's drawings (over many years) and the photographic evidence.  We have photos of the property taken just before construction commenced.  I defy you to find any evidence of clearing or any pre-construction activity.  Tillinghast saw the land and didn't think it merited a golf course.  Flynn saw the same land and figured out how to do it; with an acquisition of the Thompson property, which was not for sale but which Flynn convinced Ingalls to acquire.  Perhaps you don't think Flynn a capable enough architect to have come up with the Cascades concept without Tillinghast.  Remember, it was Flynn that remodeled Philadelphia Cricket 4 years after it opened and was brought in by Sunnehanna to propose redesign work there.  As John Yerger points out, there really weren't too many choices at that time, but it was around the time Tillinghast was working at Bethpage.  Compare Flynn's record with Tillinghast and I don't think you could argue one was the master of the other in terms of quality--even today their existing work stands up very well against each other and that is with some of Flynn's very best no longer in existence (Mill Road Farm, Boca Raton North, Boca Raton South and Yorktown River Course).

Despite Flynn's outstanding achievements to date when the Martin book was published, nearly all of Flynn's courses were completed by 1936, yet he was not mentioned once.  John Yerger and I found that very interesting given that some of Flynn's courses were mentioned, however briefly.  So clearly Martin did not comprehensively attibute courses across the board.  The fact that Burbeck's name is missing as well should not be taken as conclusive.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
You missed my entire point with refernce to the Cascades issue. Re-read again what I wrote and hopefully you'll see that all I was trying to say was that there is FAR LESS reason to quetion Tilly as architect of record at Bethpage BASED UPON THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED than there is for me to question Flynn at the Cascades!"

Phil:

I did not miss your point at all, not in the last post or when we spoke on the phone.

However, your point is completely preposterous Phil. It's preposterous because there never has been a single solitary question of who designed and constructed The Cascades, and even you know that or you should know it at this point.

You bring up some evidence of The Homestead spending $40,000-50,000 on a course down there involving Tillinghast and Peter Lees. That is completely true---we aren't denying that, we never have and frankly we confirmed it for you. But that course was NOT the same one as The Cascacades. It was not the same property. It was about two miles away and it was a couple of years earlier. So that takes care of any records you've found from the County or whatever involving Lees (Tillinghast) and the spending of $40-50k by the Homestead. Again, Tillinghast and Lees definitely did do work there for that amount of money on another course that did not work out and it was not the PRESENT Cascades site that would not even be bought by the Homestead for a couple more years after Lees and Tillie were done down there. We can and have totally proven that.

Now this advertisement of Tillinghast's claiming he designed The Cascades. What about that?

We talked about that on the phone Phil, and I told you I really didn't want to speculate why Tillinghast would've said that or done that, although when you asked again I told you what I thought it may've been about, and none of it shines very well on Tillie. Maybe he was sick (manic/depression) or maybe he simply thought the Women's Amateur was played on the course that he and Lees worked on which frankly never even operated as a successful Homestead course. The employees are the only ones who used it and then it was let go.

You asked why Flynn didn't question that advertisement and I told you he probably didn't want to because he knew Tillie, probably liked him and didn't want to embarrass him or expose whatever it was that made him say something like that.

Phil, we have all Flynn's plans for the Cascades, hole by hole and in real detail. We can clearly see that his plans completely match the way the course was built. We have a comprehensive written account from the Homestead owner of how he came to hire Flynn for the Cascades, how it was built by him and how he worked on it for the next twenty years.

Frankly, for a course of that early era the comprehensive account and proof of who did it and how doesn't get much better than The Cascades. It probably was that way because for years and years the entire place (Homestead) was a hotel and a successful business---eg they keep complete records a lot better than most clubs.

These UNDENIABLE facts, Phil, completely trump the validity of Tillinghast's claim in that ad that he had anything to do with the design and construction of the present Cascades golf course, the one that is there today that is called "The Cascades" or the Upper Cascades and on which the US Women's Amateur Championship was held.

I told you that perhaps the course that Tillinghast and Lees worked on that was two miles away, and preceded the present Flynn Cascades course by a few years and that eventually failed and was let go may've been referred at the time it was being done as the Cascades. We know it was later referred to as the goat course due to its ground.

If you had anything on Bethpage Black from Tillinghast like we do on the Cascades with Flynn and from owner Ingalls we would not be having these discussions about Burbeck and Bethpage Black. Whitten never would've written the article about Burbeck and no one would have ever questioned Tillinghast being the designer of Bethpage Black.

But you don't have those things that we do on The Cascades---you don't have his hole by hole design drawings of the Black as we do from Flynn on the Cascades. You don't have a written account by the client describing what Tillie did in detail. You have a man, Burbeck, who was on site throughout the entire construction of all the courses of Bethpage who apparently was responsible for overseeing their construction who apparently led at least one writer at that time (Rice) to believe it was he who designed The Black.

There was no one remotely like that at The Cascades, not Less or Tillinghast or anyone else, and there is no conflicting report like that concerning The Cascades and there never has been.

Tillinghast's advertisement claiming he designed The Cascades is nothing more than an unfortunate mistake or misunderstanding on his part, and you know that Phil.

If you want to keep pushing that however as some vestige of evidence that he really did design The Cascades that is there today then we will keep pushing it too and I can guarantee you the end result will not shine well on Tillie.

Look, Phil, I happen to think Tillie was one of the best 3-4 architects who ever lived. He was incredibly creative and imaginative but he also had some health problems (physical and/or psychological), we know that, most everyone knew that, and you know that no matter how much you may want to sanitize that fact or explain it away.

[TEPaul]

JohnY:

I am not questionimg the writer Martin's bona fides. I'm not exactly questioning any writer's bona fides regarding anything necessarily.

I am, however, fully aware of how some of these things regarding "design" vs "construction" vs "consulting" or "advising" was interpreted in the old days compared to the way and manner in which some of us ply research and interpret it on the design and creation of some of these famous course today.

We want to look directly at the material from the course and club itsel that related directly to the design and creation of these courses and not indirect written material no matter how good the reputation of the author is.

I did not like to come upon examples like the fact of how Jim Finegan, who I happen to think is one of the best golf and architecture writers and researchers there ever has been, misinterpreted the meaning, time-wise of a single date on a design plan from PVGC and how that misinterpretation took him down a competely wrong road of interpretation and unintentionally of Colt's part, for instance.

But there you go---those things just happen and we are into this stuff so much more than anyone has been before us that these things are just bound to come up.

There's probably little question either that some of us simply interpret the very same set of facts slightly differently unless the meaning of it is unimpeachably clear.

[Dan Kelly]

JohnY:

I am not questionimg the writer Martin's bona fides. I'm not exactly questioning any writer's bona fides regarding anything necessarily.

I am, however, fully aware of how some of these things regarding "design" vs "construction" vs "consulting" or "advising" was interpreted in the old days compared to the way and manner in which some of us ply research and interpret it on the design and creation of some of these famous course today.

We want to look directly at the material from the course and club itsel that related directly to the design and creation of these courses and not indirect written material no matter how good the reputation of the author is.

I did not like to come upon examples like the fact of how Jim Finegan, who I happen to think is one of the best golf and architecture writers and researchers there ever has been, misinterpreted the meaning, time-wise of a single date on a design plan from PVGC and how that misinterpretation took him down a competely wrong road of interpretation and unintentionally of Colt's part, for instance.

But there you go---those things just happen and we are into this stuff so much more than anyone has been before us that these things are just bound to come up.

There's probably little question either that some of us simply interpret the very same set of facts slightly differently unless the meaning of it is unimpeachably clear.

Get thee to a Fisher's Island!

[ForkaB]

When the going gets tough, the tough go off to Fishers for a few days.......

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & Wayne Morrison,

What I'm surprised at is your acceptance of a premise, based on the condition that you can't conclusively disprove it.

Shouldn't the burden of proof rest with substantiating the premise and not with disproving it ?

I thought the Aronomink thread reinforced that process.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

I know exactly what you're saying and have said so in the original Tillinghast at Cascades stab-in-the dark thread and I strongly agree with you.  I pointed out the backwards approach that leads to a series of errors on Phil's part.  Now I know that Phil has repeated that he isn't saying that he firmly believes that Tillinghast did do a routing and clearing at Cascades, but his methodology is seriously flawed in his effort to find out.

The process of determining any Tillinghast architectural attribution at Cascades should begin with a null hypothesis as Tom and I do throughout our research efforts.  That hypothesis should be that Tillinghast did not design the Cascades.  Anything that disproves this proves that he did design the Cascades.  Phil has not found one shred of real evidence except the listing of the Cascades in a summary of course designs by Tillinghast in an advertisement.  It doesn't take much effort (though it takes some) to disprove this assertion by Tillinghast.  What were the reasons for Tillinghast including this in his listing of courses?  I don't know.  I hope it was a mistake and not a deliberate attempt to falsely claim attribution.

The process that Phil used is that Tillinghast did design the Cascades and he would like us to disprove this by finding contrary evidence.  Well, as you know Pat, it is much more difficult to prove something didn't happen than it is to prove something did happen.  I have stated this in the past though not on this thread.  Why doesn't Phil provide some real proof that Tillinghast did design the Cascades?  Because it doesn't exist.  

A fractionally cited quote made by a third-party county historian that was taken completely out of perspective and a false advertisement puts Phil on some very thin ice.  Is the advertisement in itself interesting?  Yes, of course.  Does it lead to some questioning of the architectural attribution of Cascades--it sure should.  Is it easy to conclude that it is completely false?  Yes!  Phil has not seen the hundreds of pages of documentation, drawings and photographs that conclusively disprove the notion that Tillinghast had anything at all to do with the golf course on the Rubino and Thompson properties known as the Cascades.

What of the mistaken attribution in Tillinghast's advertisement.  Phil would have us question Flynn's role because he has not found any evidence that Flynn challenged him on this, i.e. sought a retraction.  Or that Tillinghast was the editor so he would know if the advertisement was true or false.  There is a mountain of evidence that proves who designed the Cascades.  It was one man--William Flynn.  I can disprove Tillinghast's attribution simply by presenting the William Flynn drawings, Ingalls accounting of the process and photographs that show it was built exactly as Flynn drew it and continued to draw them and redesign over a period of 15-20 years.

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

At what point will it finally occur to you & Tom that when I state in private emails, by telephone conversations and here on GCA.com that I AM NOT CHALLENGING WHETHER FLYNN IS THE DESIGNER OF THE CASCADES NOR AM I ASCERTING THAT TILLY DESIGNED IT BUT AM ONLY TRYING TO UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT HE DID THERE AND WHAT THE MONEY WAS SPENT ON, that it means exactly and only that!

Still, you persist in either misquoting me or misrepresenting what I have said.

You write once again, "The process that Phil used is that Tillinghast did design the Cascades and he would like us to disprove this by finding contrary evidence.  Well, as you know Pat, it is much more difficult to prove something didn't happen than it is to prove something did happen.  I have stated this in the past though not on this thread.  Why doesn't Phil provide some real proof that Tillinghast did design the Cascades?"

I have NEVER STATED EVER that Tilly designed the Cascades. I have asked reasonable questions of what happened and why he wrote what he did. I think anyone with a curiosity about the great course designers of years gone by would be wondering as well.

You are not and that is fine. Please stop saying that I am challenging Flynn's architectural credentials at the Cascades WHEN I AM NOT! I can't seem to shout it loud enough for either you or Tom to evidently hear.

The reason I made mention of it in this thread was simply as means of COMPARISON. Again, I believe that Ron Whitten's basis for even CHALLENGING whether Tilly designed Bethpage is far less than what I have shown for Tilly at Cascades and I again state that he didn't. Why then would someone who argues so vehemently that Tilly didn't not see that replacing Tilly at Bethpage is just as or even more ludicrous.

That Tom doesn't and didn't is certainly his right and privilege; for him to threaten me, as he did in his last post when he again shoed that he missed my point just belittles himself.

You also wrote, "Prior to this you stated that, "Now I know that Phil has repeated that he isn't saying that he firmly believes that Tillinghast did do a routing and clearing at Cascades..."

Again, I not only have never stated that Tilly did a routing and clearing, I HAVE STATED that the HOMESTEAD ITSELF, whether mistaken or not, wrote that Tilly & Lees cleared land, routed a course and brought it to the point of seeding, spending $40-50,000 in doing so. It clearly was abandoned; there is NO QUESTION about that. I just want to know, if it is at all possible, where they did this. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp and why is it so wrong for me to wonder?

You state, "The process of determining any Tillinghast architectural attribution at Cascades should begin with a null hypothesis as Tom and I do throughout our research efforts."

Frankly, every serious researcher has their methodology for the process they use to draw their conclusions. I consider myself a fairly serious researcher and my process is this. I examine every possible avenue that i know of that has evidence about a subject without any preconceived beliefs. If I come to a conclusion on a subject, as in my belief that Tilly designe Bethpage and the Black, I never take offense when someone questions this, whether it has a strong basis in fact or not.

If I am able to I do independent research again. When this issue first came up, I flew up to New York and reexamined the archives at the Long Island Studies Institute (they are the only archives with local Long Island papers archived), the New York Public Library, Golf GHouse and then to Florida at the PGA of America's Otto Probst Library. This was done with an OPEN MIND and the thought of wouldn't it be wonderful if an injustice long endured should be righted.

My new research led me to the same conclusion that i found in my original one; Tilly designed Bethpage and the Black and the only and real injyustice was that Mr. Burbeck would now NEVER get the proper credit he deserves for the amazing job he did in overseeing the project for the Long island State Park Commission.

I don't expect or demand that anyone follow or meet the same research protocols or standards that I use. That you have a style by which your conclusions are drawn is fine and more than acceptable to other serious researchers.

Our processes are different. That is why I question what I do.

Whether you agree with my doing so or not, will you please accept what I stated and restate again & again that Tilly didn't design the Cascades as meaning exactly that?

You further state that, "A fractionally cited quote made by a third-party county historian that was taken completely out of perspective and a false advertisement puts Phil on some very thin ice.  Is the advertisement in itself interesting?  Yes, of course.  Does it lead to some questioning of the architectural attribution of Cascades--it sure should.  Is it easy to conclude that it is completely false?  Yes!  Phil has not seen the hundreds of pages of documentation, drawings and photographs that conclusively disprove the notion that Tillinghast had anything at all to do with the golf course on the Rubino and Thompson properties known as the Cascades.

I have stated to you from the beginning, in private and later in public, that this is, as you put it, "A fractionally cited quote made by a third-party county historian..." It is, I agree. I have been unable to get a copy of the publication in which it appeared as the Bath County Historical Society is being renovated and is now going into a second month past the original finish date.

You also stated that it, "was taken completely out of perspective..." I take exception with that and you can't state that. YOU ALSO HAVE NOT SEEN THIS PUBLICATION, so HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY STATE THAT IT WAS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT? It may very well have been, but all that I can state is what was sent to me which I passed on to you and Tom. When I can finally get a chance to see it i will post it in it's entirety so that all can draw what ever conclusions need drawing.

Both you & Tom have graciously offered to open up your research materials to me and I have gladly accepted the opportunity to enjoy these treasures in your presence. Again though, I live in Atlanta & you guys don't and so the logistics of doing so aren't workable yet. I do hope to do so in the future.

Wayne, I am not ascribing wrong motives to either you or Tom in this issue that became a runaway train despite my wanting to keep it a matter of private questioning of what happened and why.

I just ask that You accept that I am not challenging Flynn, nevr challenged him nor ever expect to as to his being the architect of the Cascades and stop saying that I am and have.

[wsmorrison]

I don't think there is any evidence that Tillinghast had anything to do with the Cascades.  If you agree that is great.  We described what Tillinghast did for the Homestead Resort at the site of the so called Goat Course.

You again brought up Tillinghast and Cascades, this time to contrast the lack of archival evidence to link Burbeck and Bethpage.  I haven't the faintest idea why since there is only one advertisement linking Tillinghast and the Cascades.  Burbeck was on site every day during construction and Tillinghast never during Cascade construction.  I'd say that circumstantial evidence is more supportive of the possibility of Burbeck contributing to the architecture at Bethpage than Tillinghast.  If you want to bring up examples of more credible evidence, you are mistaken to use Cascades and Tillinghast as an example.

The evidence you have presented that in your mind conclusively proves that Tillinghast was the sole designer of Bethpage Black is not conclusive in my mind at all.  There is a serious lack of hard evidence so any conclusion is at this point based on interpolation of a small amount of factual material.  The factual material relating to the architectural attribution of the Cascades is exhaustive.  My approach to the architectural attribution at Bethpage Black is that it is more than likely a Tillinghast design with some contribution, unknown at this point, by Burbeck.  What's wrong with that?  Given the little information on hand, why is it an all or none answer?

The only question that exists regarding Tillinghast and the Cascades is why he advertised his work there.  Did he make a simple mistake or was there something more to the error?  If, as you have said in the past, he was working alone at the time and he was responsible as editor for content, then the mistake must have been his own.  The cause of the mistake is worth figuring out and I wouldn't want to speculate without any evidence one way or another.

I should have received the 1932 Spectator in question in an email this week and I'll call on Monday to see why it hasn't been received.  When I do, I'll forward you a scan right away.

I don't know enough details regarding Ron Whitten's basis for attributing Burbeck to some design work at Bethpage.  I would hope there would be more evidence than that of Tillinghast at Cascades because other than the errant advertisement there is absolutely nothing else to support such a notion.  

If you are passing through Philadelphia, do stop by and see the conclusive evidence of Flynn's efforts at Cascades.  I do accept the fact that you now believe that Tillinghast did not have any design input at the Cascades.  What mechanism would allow Tillinghast to claim he did?

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

You wrote, "My approach to the architectural attribution at Bethpage Black is that it is more than likely a Tillinghast design with some contribution, unknown at this point, by Burbeck.  What's wrong with that?  Given the little information on hand, why is it an all or none answer?"

There is nothing wrong with that thinking nor that conclusion. I just disagree with it.

You wrote, "Burbeck was on site every day during construction and Tillinghast never during Cascade construction."

While that is mostly true (he was on site at Jones beach as well during this same time period) the scope of all of his duties, in my opinion, would have prevented him from from designing the courses and giving continuous specific input on many course construction details.

It is his son's recollection, and this is agreed with by Whitten and written as part of his proof, that his father spent evenings examining blueprints and it would be at this time that he would draw the designs for the courses.
He then (Burbeck's son) admits that he never saw any prints drawn by his father of the courses, just that he believes he made them.

Josepd Burbeck was constantly looking at blueprints dealing with site drawings and elevations, excavations, installations of roadways and parking lots, sewers, electric, telephone, polo fields, recreation fields, tennis courts,  existing clubhouse
house and new clubhouse and more... It is no wonder that he remembers his father "pouring over blueprints and making notes on them..."

Most people have gotten so used to the stand that GD & Whitten have taken onBethpage that they have forgotten how very little it was actually based upon. That is why I make the comparison I do, and where I respect your write and opinion that it is incorrect and poorly-thought out on my part, it is still my opinion.

I really can't wait to get to Philly and see the Flynn stuff and will make certain that I find a way to do so by this fall.

The only mechanism that would seem to allow Tilly to claim that he designed the Cascades, and there is no question that he did, is that he must have believed for some reason that Flynn used some of what he & Lees worked on as they left it. He was well aware the location for the Women's Championship and he said that was the course he designed.

That he was trying to take credit for something to which he knew he didn't deserve I can't accept. That was not the nature of Tilly the man or person. He had a habit of praising those whose work he liked and would often write such.

Now, this is not to belittle the Cascades, but in 1931, fine course though it was and remains, it certainly wasn't in the class of Winged Foot, Baltusrol, 5 farms, and a number of his other designs. He would gain nothing by claiming it has his own.

Therefor, the only reasonable conclusion to assume at this point, is that he was mistaken and that we can't say for any certainty as to why that was.

Also, it turns out that there are a number of advertisements that refer to the same point, though without naming the Cascades. These deal with Tilly stating that it was 11 in 11 years of his courses hosting National Championships and how the 1940 Winged Foot U.S. Amateur would mark the 22nd time a National Championship was played on one of his courses. The only way these figures can be arrived at is by including the 1928 Women's National Championship at the Cascades.

Why Tilly believed it was his design, at this point no one knows. It is too early to ascribe anything other than it appears he very incorrect and nothing more. The search for why is very worthy of pursuit. The answer may not necessarily be found.

By the way, will you be at WF?