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John Kavanaugh

The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« on: June 06, 2006, 09:26:31 AM »
What are the greatest architectural scoops ever.  I've got to go with Ron Whitten's story on Burbeck at Bethpage...
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 09:34:39 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Kavanaugh

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2006, 09:46:06 AM »
Dan,

Since you are in the "biz"...can you give any other examples..

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2006, 09:48:23 AM »
Thomas MacWood
George Arthur Crump: Portrait of a Legend

The true story right here on GCA see  In My Opinion

I miss Tom MacWood.
Let's make GCA grate again!

ForkaB

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2006, 10:02:03 AM »
I agree, Tony. I was particularly surprised that Tom was actually right on this one, for once...... ;)

John Kavanaugh

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2006, 10:33:08 AM »
Did MacWood scoop the Crump suicide or was it a well known fact before this piece...
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 10:33:26 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2006, 10:40:42 AM »
John if I didn't know you better I'd think you were stirring up old ashes ;).  

Look back about 18 months and if you added about 4 threads together the Wie thread would seem like a introduction to a real discussioon.

Suffice it to say the information was a real scoop and reading the threads it's seems entirely possible that The Da Vinci Code sequel will be about who at the club was the keeper of the secret all these years.
Let's make GCA grate again!

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2006, 10:51:08 AM »
I agree that Tom MacWood's dredging up of George Crump's death certificate and proving he committed suicide was certainly one of the most dramatic stories ever told about an architect---not the least reason being it involved perhaps the greatest golf course in the world which had one of the most unusual creations ever known, obviously due to George Crump.

The rumor that Crump may've committed suicide had been around for many, many years--I became aware of the rumor perhaps thirty years ago. A number of those I know at PVGC were aware of it for decades, even the pistol found at his cabin. Geoff Shackelford became fairly curious about a Crump suicide a number of years ago and when asked he said he saw the mention of the rumor in an article perhaps in the last ten or twenty years.

I must say I was more than a little ambivalent about anyone seeking out the circumstances of Crump's death and then his death certificate to try to prove he committed suicide. Initially my feeling was that it would be more appropriate to let the man and his memory rest in peace.

But that's not the way the search for truth is---with the idolatry of the ages should come the unvarnished truth as well, I suppose---it's more honest and frankly more interesting that way.

And although I didn't think he would do it as he did, Tom MacWood's essay on Crump that culminated with the manner of his death was a really excellent one, and a sensitive one. It is certainly true to say that the proof of the manner of Crump's death did have a real affect on those connected with PVGC and the article did too, in a very positive way, I think.

Why had no one ever bothered before to seek out Crump's death certificate in all these decades, particularly while this rumor of his suicide seemed always just below the surface? That's an interesting question that will probably never have an answer.

In my opinion, the story of the circumstances of Crump's suicide is a story still untold.

In the last year or so someone supplied me with an article from 1991 which was in a little known periodical that was a story on the Govans of Pine Valley and an interview with Geoge Govan, long time pro, clubmaker at PVGC and the son of Jim Govan, Crump's foreman, pro, greenkeeper, clubmaker and constant companion during those five years Crump worked on the construction of PVGC apparently just about every single day.

In that article George Govan (who had by 1991 retired to Florida) recalled the sad day George Crump was found dead in his cabin at PVGC. Govan explained that the only people who lived at PVGC at that time were Crump alone in his little bungalow by the pond and Govan and his family who lived off the second hole. George Govan was a little boy then.

But the actual death certificate, that I've seen, says Crump ws found dead from a gunshot wound to the head in his big and beautiful house in Merchantville in which he had installed his mother and in which he did not live.

What is this discrepency all about?

And then the story that was floated and basically accepted that he died of poison to the brain from a tooth abscess??

What was that about?

Obviously there must have been a desire amongst Crump's remaining family to cover up the circumstances of his death---eg a suicide.

But what about the tooth abscess story?

There's no question at all that at the time of his death by suicide Crump's teeth were way beyond just bad---the truth is they were absolutely killing him.

His caddy---who just unbelievably is still alive---mentioned long ago that towards the end Crump would walk around PVGC with a towel in his mouth his teeth were so bad and superating so.

But in the end I think it all shows us just how fragile life is and how fragile and unpredictable one's mind and mood can sometimes be and even at times that we feel one's greatest success is at hand or just around the corner.

It is almost certainly true to say that Crump's sudden death at 46 stunned everyone who knew him and knew about him and his great PV golf course that had become ultra famous even before his death.

It seems to underscore that old adage that noone really knows what goes on behind closed doors.



« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 11:03:23 AM by TEPaul »

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2006, 10:56:05 AM »
Once again Tom, a piece of writing to be cherished..thanks for that wonderful essay.
The unfortunate circumstances behind his suicide amy never be realised, but his work will simply last forever.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2006, 10:57:06 AM »
It seems to underscore that old adage that noone really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

Particularly the closed doors between the ears -- eh?

One word: "Rosebud."
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2006, 10:58:27 AM »
"Did MacWood scoop the Crump suicide or was it a well known fact before this piece..."

John:

The primary story always was that Crump died of poison to the brain from a tooth abscess but the rumor that he may've committed suicide had been around these parts for almost ninety years now. I heard the rumor over thirty years ago.

The rumor of his suicide may've had a good deal to do with why noone ever seemed to want to look into the circumstances of his death before.

There is no question at all now that the circumstances of his death must have been almost immediately covered up by his family, for whatever reasons. It's pretty remarkable that that coverup story of death by poison to the brain from a tooth abscess was as successfully as it was and lasted as long as it did.  
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 11:09:28 AM by TEPaul »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2006, 11:13:53 AM »
having had WAY too much experience with suicides and attempted suicides from family and friends, it's just terrible that Mr. Crump met that fate.......
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John Kavanaugh

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2006, 11:49:50 AM »
I don't think there is any doubt that the Geoffrey Childs scoop on the work at Yale would have to be included on any best of list.  That being said...Are there any similar examples in the print world that might get a mention..

John Kavanaugh

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2006, 11:54:15 AM »
For the Geoff Shackelford fans...What has been his greatest scoop..

Geoffrey Childs

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2006, 12:39:04 PM »
I don't think there is any doubt that the Geoffrey Childs scoop on the work at Yale would have to be included on any best of list.  That being said...Are there any similar examples in the print world that might get a mention..

Very kind of you John but the bylines go to Tony Pioppi (Golfweek), Brad Klein (Golfweek) and Ran Morrissett (10 greatest tragedies in golf article) with great assists from George Bahto. I was but a pesty member who used this website as a pulpit.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2006, 12:44:44 PM »
is there a link to Ran's article?

199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Phil_the_Author

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2006, 01:46:03 PM »
For those who continue to keep alive this myth and very poor reporting job done by Ron Whitten that Mr. Burbeck designed Bethpage Black and, in fact, may actually believe it to be true, there is a paper on the subject on the Tillinghast Association web-site (www.tillinghast.net) that details both the proofs that it is indeed a Tillinghast design and refutes every point that Ron used in deducing the opposite.

Among the proofs discovered since that was written several years ago is Tilly's granddaughter Barbara who is in her late 70's and lived in the house behind Tilly in Harrington Park and, at 6 years of age, accompanied him to Bethpage, walking the property with him (as she would do at several of his courses) and watch him as he directed work. Mr. Burbeck was 3 years old at this time.

Also, in a New York Times article from 1936 that detailed Tilly's PGA Tour, this was written, "Tillinghast laid out and supervised the construction of the four 18-hole courses at Beth Page State Park near Farmingdale, L.I., the scene of the 1936 national Public Links tournament."

When he received a copy of this article in a recent email, Mr. Whitten responded by asking if "the article had ever been retracted."

Unfortunately the article has painted him into a corner where he would damage his credibility by admitting that he was & is wrong.

The biggest damage though has been done to Joseph Burbeck who will always be viewed as a controversial figure rather than being remembered for the incredible job he did in overseeing the entire park construction while operating a golf course open for play, creating THE world-class caddy program, overseeing the installation of the infrastructure as sewers, roads, electric and clubhouse were built, and logging and managing a work crew of some 1,800 men.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 01:47:29 PM by Philip Young »

Ryan Farrow

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2006, 05:00:17 PM »
"Did MacWood scoop the Crump suicide or was it a well known fact before this piece..."

John:

The primary story always was that Crump died of poison to the brain from a tooth abscess but the rumor that he may've committed suicide had been around these parts for almost ninety years now. I heard the rumor over thirty years ago.

The rumor of his suicide may've had a good deal to do with why noone ever seemed to want to look into the circumstances of his death before.

There is no question at all now that the circumstances of his death must have been almost immediately covered up by his family, for whatever reasons. It's pretty remarkable that that coverup story of death by poison to the brain from a tooth abscess was as successfully as it was and lasted as long as it did.  


Could it be that he could not take the pain any longer from his tooth abscess?  Thanks for the previous post, very informative.

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2006, 05:30:28 PM »
"My impression after my back-to-back tour was that Whitten was so wrong as to be laughable, but I guess that it's more serious than that."

redanman;

It's you who can't be serious. Don't you know by now this "if it looks like X (a particular architect) it must be X" is the biggest bunch of crap in architectural analysis. A ton of competent architects have been dead wrong trying that technique.

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2006, 05:41:58 PM »
"Could it be that he could not take the pain any longer from his tooth abscess?"

Ryan:

Of course it could be. One can get a sense of that kind of thing by talking to some experienced dentists. I can't imagine a man walking around with a towel in his mouth as his teeth or gums superate but that was the story from his young caddie. Doubt the little kid would've just dreamed that up.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 05:45:30 PM by TEPaul »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2006, 07:01:00 PM »
Cypress Point was routed by Seth Raynor: http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfarchitecture/articles.php?g_id=8

« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 07:03:08 PM by Chris Kane »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2006, 08:08:16 PM »
I don't think there is any doubt that the Geoffrey Childs scoop on the work at Yale would have to be included on any best of list.  That being said...Are there any similar examples in the print world that might get a mention..

Very kind of you John but the bylines go to Tony Pioppi (Golfweek), Brad Klein (Golfweek) and Ran Morrissett (10 greatest tragedies in golf article) with great assists from George Bahto. I was but a pesty member who used this website as a pulpit.

Is that detente I smell?

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2006, 08:13:08 PM »
Tom MacWood's piece on Crump and the truth it revealed was in the spirit of Brandeis's adage that sunlight is the best disinfectant.

I tend to like the stories that challenge conventional wisdom.
In that vein (and to the anger of Phil Young, I'm sure) one of the more intriguing threads that I can remember was the discussion about Tillie's country wide renovation tour. Was the premise sound? Who knows, but it certainly made for intelligent and engaging discussion. That's where this website really shines.  

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2006, 08:33:01 PM »
Could it be the startling revelation that Brauer is doomed to mediocrity? ;)

Sitting here after work, I reread the Tillie Burbeck thread. It seems to me that its one of those cases where there can be a lot of truth to both sides.  I didn't have a post on the linked thread, but do recall posting on some thread about it - there must have been several.

I focused on the possibilities inherent in the unusal contract.  I think those were written carefully by public agencies even in those days.  I don't put as much stock in either Phillip Youngs or Ron Whittens postulating based on writings ten years earlier by Tillie (in Phillips case) or broad based histories of the commission published 25 years later in Ron's case.

I recall that the Tillie contract was funky, which if things then were as they are now, could be explained several ways.  As Phillip noted in his article, the land wasn't under contract when Tillie signed on, which might explain the limited consultant role.  

This is speculation to the same degree as others have done, but the Commission probably had some strict rules.  Now, cities have a maximum limit they can contract for without going to the City Council for a vote.  He may have wanted Tillie, but knew an open bid for services would attract lots of architects - some lower with fees and less talent. Thus, he may have signed him to numerous smaller contracts and only the one has been found.

When it originally came up, I tended to think Burbeck was a strong willed man who did want control, and may have limited Tillies involvement, and I think that may have been the case. I recall the contract stated that Burbeck or the Commission had to approve his visits. On the other hand, a lot of contracts state that (esp. those in places like Vegas, where the owner doesn't want to pay the gca vacation travel bill......)

I don't doubt that Burbeck's son was right when he said, "Dad wanted credibility" but he probably actually wanted him to route the thing, too.  There are many cases where an in house planner does a preliminary routing as part of a park, just to have a concept picture for mucky mucks and others, knowing it will be fully designed later. Those routings exist for nearly every project, and mean diddly squat.  That could easily be the case there, and Tillie could have easily routed the course well after the original concept plan, which set approximate course and facility locations, etc. was done.

Lastly, I am sure Tillies favored in house construction crews were disbanded by then and Burbeck did have the goal of employing locals in the depression. If the greens don't match Tillies earlier greatness, inexperienced constructors under Burbeck are, IMHO, most likely to blame, esp. since Tillie did apparently have a limited construction observation contract.  

Again, whether that is because of Burbeck's strong will, legal issues with the commission, or simply money - the Commission thought they could get by on a shoestring in the architecture department (believe me, that still happens!) is not really the point.  As one of the linked articles points out by Rees Jones - few gca's get to every project every day, especially in those days.  If he designed it he designed it.

We will never know the true story. Burbeck should possibly get the credit similar to Jones at Augusta, Hollins at Pasa, or Wynn at Shadow Creek, at best.  He probably had more input than that as a public official with a job description.

However, it could be that he influenced the course poorly rather than positively -  If the greens aren't up to Tillie snuff, it could be because of reasons noted above, or his decision as Commission overseer that Tillie was making it a tad tough, and overrulling him.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2006, 09:24:41 PM »
SPDB, "to the anger of Phil Young?" Am I really that bad?  ::)

Jeff, the question of design and even oversight of the construction of the courses at Bethpage and who did what is more than a semantical game.

We have a site where a man has been universally accepted as the designer for nearly 70 years, including by the very man that some now want to credit it all to. It is a question whose answer becomes blurred by those who demand that the accepted answer can only be still accepted if absolute proof be given otherwise another answer must be accepted despite it being based upon far less.

In 1933, Van Schaik, a member of the board of directors of the Long Island State Park Commision stated that "the design and construction of the golf courses at Bethpage State Park will be done by the Long Island State Park Commission." Is he claiming here that he and the rest of the Board member's did the design and oversaw the construction?

The "official History" from which Whitten claims to find "smoking gun proof" was not written in 1958 as he claims, but was written in 1942. If he had bothered to read the entire piece, which it appears he did not, he would have seen that Mr. Burbeck was not being given credit for the actual design and routing of the courses, rather that he was the Project Overseer for the Long Island State Park Commission.

The contract that is referred to is not the entire scope of the time that Tilly spent there nor was paid for. If it was, when he had completed "the 15 days" as spelled out in the contract, he would not have to be "let go" by Moses later on as he clearly was, sometime after the courses were completed.

The financial aspects of this project were both enabled and muddied by Moses wheeling and dealing in getting the project started before the funds were available for purchase and construction. As a result, there were 2 villages, 3 towns, 2 counties, 1 state and 3 federal agencies involved in the project and its oversight. That records and plans are non0-existent should surprise no one as each agency felt another was responsible. Add to this Tilly's own records being destroyed in a fire years after his death.

Still, I have recently learned of an archive that claims to have a set of "as-built plans and blueprints for the Bethpage State Park project circa 1934-6." Most likely they deal with infrastructure rather than the courses, but I remain tantalized at the thought of possible answers. I will hopefully be ably to see them in the coming weeks and will let all know what I find.

The deciding vote on this should come from the one place that has the most invested, and that is Bethpage State Park. They maintain that the architect, both actual and of record, of the Black, Red, Blue and portions of the Green courses was Albert Warren Tillinghast.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 09:25:12 PM by Philip Young »