[Tom Doak]

Today I got a scorecard in the mail for my autograph ... from a five-handicapper who shot 66!  (And he actually choked, he was six under after a birdie on 14.)

Ron Whitten could also not fail to note in the Best New write-up last year that a couple of panelists thought the course did not provide enough "Resistance to Scoring."  And, of course, Dan Belden has reproached me for not making my courses hard enough for good players like himself.

I have no doubt that the shortness of the course will cost it a few places on GOLF DIGEST's top 100 list.  But how many of you really think it should have been harder for calm days, at the risk of becoming impossible on windy days?

I know there aren't many guys who played in the Oregon Amateur who asked for more difficulty!

P.S.  I know several people who have reported playing their career low rounds there, including the superintendent Ken Nice (a 73).  Personally, I think it's nice to send them away happy.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom, the course is just fine. Catch it on certain days or at certain times on certain days and anything is possible -- both high and low scores can happen. I think of your intro on how people shoot low numbers as nothing more than the horse track mentality. You only hear from the betters when their horse comes in -- you don't hear from these same people when they've added a snowman on the card as the tee shots fade right into the junk at the 4th hole or hook into the soup at #13.

If someone does shoot a fine round -- more power to them.

I did the ratings for GD for over 15 years and if Pac Dunes doesn't get rated in a proper manner something is indeed wrong.

P.S. I've heard the same thing from a few fellow low handicap friends of mine who played Pebble Beach the first time with no wind and a convenient cloud cover. They all boasted how Pebble was a pushover. They went back two years later and played in a clear sunny day with winds averaging a steady a 15-20 mph. Nobody was boasting at the 19th hole that day.

[Steve Sailer]

I haven't yet played Pacific Dunes, but I noticed something similar at Whistling Straits -- everyone in my foursome played better than normal. I suspect that the hard sand-based turf largely eliminates hitting the ball fat, which is a major problem for non-scratch golfers. As Mr. Doak says about Pacific Dunes, everybody went home happy, and what's wrong with that?

[Dan Grossman]

I would agree with Matt Ward's assessment.  Its is fine.  On the Pebble vs. Pacific thread, I stated that the Pacific was easier than Pebble.  

However, Pacific is by no means easy.  I have shot 72 and 73 on Pacific over the past two years, which are low scores for me.  Both rounds were in very calm conditions.  However, I also shot about 70 at Pacific when there were only 12 holes open!   I caught the course on a blustery rainy day and it was a BEAR.  I remember killing a drive and not getting to the fairway on #7.  I had to hit out of the water hazard / junk stuff between the tee and the fairway.

I think if it were harder it would be unplayable on a day when the weather was marginal.  I can't imagine playing Pebble in windy conditions.  I caught it on a calm day too!

[Jeremy Glenn,]

What the heck is "resistance to scoring" anyway?

I've read the definition somewhere, but I don't recall it.  Does anyone have it handy?

But more to the point, what does it really mean?  How do you measure it?

I hope it's not relative to par.  THAT would be really sad.

[Kevin_Reilly]

From Golf Digest:

"Resistance to Scoring: How difficult, while still being fair, is the course for a scratch player from the back tees?"

[Matt Kardash]

Steve, are you saying that you think WS is easier than most courses that you play?haha i hope not..i think you guys just had a good day or had Oddjob(goldfinger) as a caddy,hehe, becuase let's face it,WS is the course from hell...Who cares if a course is hard or easy?...everyone plays and everyone deals with what's in front of them...golf is all about the 4 or 5 hours of beatin' on your buddies.

[Todd Eckenrode]

I'm certainly not an authority on the predominant conditions there, but I suppose it's pretty windy often.  I played Bandon while you were constructing Pacific, in a strong wind-from the tips, and felt it was one of the hardest golfing rounds I'd ever played.  I can remember many a 3 wood into the greens that didn't look very receptive to a 3 wood at all!

In essence, you certainly could have made Pacific a "harder" course, I think, but it would have been a poor companion to Bandon.  Pacific will have more variety to it in scoring, I think, with many low numbers, and many high numbers in big winds.  That's great!

[Michael Whitaker]

I didn't think most of you guys subscribed to the idea of "fair" on a golf course. How can resistance to scoring be judged against what is "fair" when you don't consider "fair" a legitimate concept?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I am returning to PD in a couple of weeks.  I played the preview nine and then returned just prior to opening and played with Ken Nice.  

Both times the weather was completely benign and I found multiple birdies.  I have not been foolish enough to go bragging about those rounds.  

I have played Bandon several times as well and found it much easier at times than others.  When the wind blows at Bandon it isn't even easy to tie your shoes!!

I am looking forward to playing this time of year.  If the weather holds a few more weeks it should be absolutely stunning.  

[Tim Weiman]

Tom,

For perspective on this question I go back to my days at BP and a well traveled, senior manager who played close to scratch. Guess what golf course he wasn’t impressed with because he thought it was way too easy? Hint: it is in Northern California………

For another perspective, I recall playing at Turnberry and shooting what might have been the best round of my life: out in 50 strokes back in 41 for a 91……. when nobody else in my group of 12 pretty good golfers broke 130. That’s right, one hundred and thirty.

It was just your typical 70 MPH wind, closer to a survival contest than a round of golf.

Bottom line: don’t worry about it.

[Mike Erdmann]

Pacific Dunes is most definitely NOT too easy.  

About the only time you can reasonably expect calm conditions are September and October.  I played Pacific Dunes a week ago Saturday.  There was no wind, and the course didn't play especially difficult.  But I've played in typical winds, and the course can be a bitch.  The course design should factor in the typical wind conditions, and if the course were much tighter, it would come close to being unplayable in strong winds.  And as others have said before, who gives a rip about "resistance to scoring"?  The Old Course isn't a terribly difficult course, and it doesn't diminish the quality whatsoever.  Both are strategic courses that make you think without beating the crap out of you in the process.  And both are among the most enjoyable golf experiences one will ever enjoy!

If conditions are calm, and somebody's game is really on, then I can see them shooting a low round at PD.  But a 5-handicap shooting a 66?  Sorry, but gotta question that handicap.  Since you know the name Tom and the state he's from, log on to http://www.ghin.com/lookup/index.html, look up his name and see if he posted the score!

(P.S.  Today's Nov. 1st, which means rates at both BD and PD drop to less than 1/2 of the high-season rates!)

[D. Kilfara]

Tom, even if PD is too easy for some...when a course is as elegant and fun to play as PD is, who cares if it's too easy? I'd rather all architects err on the side of being too easy than too hard, with the single exception of courses designed specifically to test the abilities of professionals in tournament conditions. If a course can both stroke your ego and tickle the architecture connoisseur in you, isn't that the best of both worlds?

As I've said previously, nobody ever quit the game of golf because it was too easy. And I can't imagine that many golfers would ever choose to stay away from a golf course they enjoyed simply because it was too easy.

Cheers,
Darren

[Gib_Papazian]

Tom,
With the exception of Carnoustie, I have never played a truly great links course that was not fairly easy in a slack wind.

Part of the charm of Pac Dunes is that you have to run the ball into so many of the greens - a skill made far more difficult in a substantial breeze.

The problem in this case lies in the inability of some of the raters to visualize the playing characteristics of the golf course under a variety of conditions.

Personally, I have played the golf course four times (once with you). In benign conditions, the golf course is a joy - a relaxing tour through a string of naturalistic landforms introducing all sorts of creative options.

In a blazing gale, Pac Dunes is almost too hard. I remember taking a 13 on the 13th hole without hitting a really bad shot . . . . . ironically, while playing with a GD employee named "Lucky."

You showed me some of those "alternate tees" hidden around the golf course. If hard is what they want, send them out there in a four-club wind from the Kaiser Tees and all those "hard-is-good" machomen will need a neck tourniquet to stop the bleeding from their ears.

In slack conditions, the only change I might make is to jazz up the 8th fairway with some bunkering, and maybe put in some kind of penalty for missing the par-3 14th short and left.

Besides that, there are not many things I would change.

One question though: I have always been a bit confused by the lack of room between "Shoe's" Bunker (the center pot) and the left edge of the fairway off the tee.

Hitting into that alley, the approach is clear and open to the green. From the Papazian Chicken-out side (the right), the approach is blind, over bunkers and dunes, and from an uneven lie. Oh, and also against the wind.

If the tee was centered a bit more instead of being located on the right side, it would be tempting for shorter hitters. As it plays, it seems the only shot to get a clear approach is a long blast over Shoe's sandpit. It would be far more interesting if there was an option for low-ball hitters to sneak a runner into the gap to leave a clear shot.

Ever think of putting in another tee?  

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

M.Whitaker,

This may be a little unrelated to the subject at hand, but I've always believed that a course should be "fair".

It's just that we often confuse "fairness" with "luck".

[Rick Shefchik]

"...at the risk of becoming impossible on windy days?"

Well, that sort of answers the question, doesn't it? If you build a golf course where the wind blows, you can't very well expect it to succeed if it plays impossible in the wind.

A lot of recent threads seem to be touching on this subject, and to me it's summarized this way: Golf was not meant to be fair. Nor was it meant to be impossible.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I'm not qualified to make evaluations relative to Pacific Dunes, but the problem you allude to exists at Seminole, NGLA, Maidstone and Newport, and few seem to complain or be critical of those courses and the test they offer on calm days.

The fact that the course is more easily scored upon on calm days has universal application.  However, are calm days that common ?

And, you touched on the key, the relationship between the architecture and difficulty of play (resistance to scoring) on calm versus windy days.

If the course was difficult on calm days, it would seem to be unscorable on very windy days, and from what I understand, there are plenty of very windy days at Pacific Dunes.

When the same situation/condition exists at Seminole, NGLA, Maidstone and Newport, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Gib_Papazian]

. . . . and you cannot very well expect a golf course that presents an appropriate challenge in the wind not to be considerably easier on a calm day.

That goes equally for St. Andrews, Lahinch, Ballybunnion and NGLA.

I might point out a personal example at Portrush Dunluce. The wind was flapping strongly in the morning and I staggered in with 85 blows, with my Armenian tail between my legs.

After a nice lunch with the Club Secretary and an adult beverage or two, our host suggested we "have another go."

In the interim, the wind died and even with a 72, I felt like I squandered a lot of shots out there.

Is Portrush easy?  It depends on her mood, laddie. It depends on her mood.

Pac Dunes and Bandon are every bit as fickle.

[Steve Sailer]

<<Steve, are you saying that you think WS is easier than most courses that you play?haha i hope not>>

I'm saying that in my one round at Whistling Straits, which is a sand-based links like Pacific Dunes (albeit a manufactured one), everybody hit the ball better than they do on their average round at an average golf course. We all scored worse than average, but not as much worse as we'd expected considering how horrifying the course looks, so it was a highly satisfying experience for all of us. Although we got killed on some holes, we had a lot more pars than we expected, and like most golfers below the top 2%, we remember the good holes more vividly than the bad holes.

Perhaps we upped our games to match the course, although I think a more prosaic explanation is that the extremely firm and fast conditions we played under (in 1999) reduced the number of fat shots we hit because the clubhead would bounce off the turf rather than dig in. Also, only one of us was a scratch golfer who on a normal course flies the ball onto the green with enough backspin to hold the green. The other three of us are mediocre golfers who roll the ball onto the green. Being a links course, Whistling Straits was conducive to this aspect of our normal game.

[Steve Sailer]

I'd add that Ballybunion New (or whatever they call it now) shows the error of designing a seaside course for mild conditions. The first time I played it, the breeze was negligible and I had a delightful time. The second time, the wind was howling and it was no fun at all, due to the small greens and enormous amount of trouble off the fairways.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

I sure do agree with the likes of Matt Ward, Tim Weiman, Gib, Todd Eckenrode etc that PD is not too easy!

The thing I suppose that makes you say that, ask that, maybe even worry or fear that is the course is extremely variable because of where it is not just what it is. And obviously it can be scored on in calm conditions. But you as well as anyone, realize that a course like that has to have a  necessary amount of accomodation within its architecture to encompass the extremely tough wind conditions that it must have so much of!

It's similar to Maidstone that way--extremely, extremely variable--can play easy and be scored on and the next day unbelievably hard!

And secondly, the intention of the course never was a out and out championship design! It's a public facility and needs to be variable!

More and more these people just kill me who suggest if they shoot a low round on a course or make an eagle or birdie on a hole that it's easy--ie, something must be wrong with it.

Whatever happened to the idea that even high shot values courses and holes really can reward good play?

And anyway, the more I study architecture the more I feel that on good architecture most of the hard/easy factor is in maintenance and setup anyway (the maintenance meld!).

I wonder though, Tom, if you really are JUST asking the question if we think the course is easy! I wonder if you aren't really asking if we think there are enough holes, maybe enough situations, at PD that are high demand enough on even calm days?

More on that later!

[Dan King]

Want to make the course tougher?

Anyone with a staff bag or a bunch of big-name course bag tags hand them a scorecard that has a par of 18.

That'll get 'em to strugglin'

Dan King
dking@danking.org

       Even in Kyoto --
hearing the cuckoo's cry
        I long for Kyoto
 -- Matsuo Basho

[brad miller]

In baseball, hit a home run, the pitcher is a HOFamer, strikeout pitcher su*ks.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Its the wind laddy. Pacific dunes is great and one of my favorite courses anywhere. As noted above when the wind is blowing, it can almost be too hard lol. I love it but if you are on your game with the driver and putter and the wind is not blowing you can have a great score. That is the way all the great links course are. I love the course Tom. It is a work of art.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom,

I doubt PD's shortness will cost you any places in the GOLFWEEK modern rankings.  Both PD (#2) and Sand Hills (#1) are shorter when compared to other highly ranked modern courses.  My sense is you might as well retire SH and PD for lack of competition for they will are likely to be camped out in the #1/#2 positions for a long time.....

JC

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